The Handoff

Sandra Jones · Oct 15, 2009

* note to moderators...if this is better suited to another category, please move it.

This summer I had family visiting and two nephews went down to the creek to catch frogs. Here is a picture of the older nephew passing a frog to the younger. I really like this image and would like to print it for myself.

I'd like to have your feedback as to it's potential (as a good image) and invite you to comment on any aspect, most especially my choice of cropping. I will include the original for comparison. A large version of the original is here in case you'd like to crop it, enhance the colour, (or alter in any way) and show me the result. Thanks for looking.

The Handoff

The Handoff_original

Don Cohen · Oct 15, 2009

I'll let Asher determine if this needs to be in a different section, but will go ahead and comment here.

I am not usually a fan of square format, or central composition, but I think that this is the best choice for this image, and is quite effective. I think it conveys the intimate transfer taking place in a careful, delicate way.

I think it would be a lovely print!

Asher Kelman · Oct 15, 2009

Hi Sandra,

I like the idea. Lighting is a problem in that the frog doesn't have enough and the background too much.

I have made two attempts. First a good size crop:

Sandra Jones Hand-Off edited ak

then a second independent tighter crop:

Sandra Jones Hand-Off edited ak_2

I hope you like these quick edits for your consideration,

Asher

Sandra Jones · Oct 15, 2009

Don..thank you for your kind comments, very encouraging.

Asher...thanks so much for taking the time to edit. I really love what you've done to the first one. I like the lighting much better and the softer background gives more impact to the fg. The softness also projects the gentleness that was taking place, an act of kindness on the part of the older boy. Very nice.

The second crop I feel is too close. For one, it emphasizes the lack of focus on the frog, and it draws my eye to the wrist portion in the upper left rather than to the frog. Plus, I like the young boy's bracelet in the shot for some reason.

Asher Kelman · Oct 15, 2009

Sandra Jones said:
Asher...thanks so much for taking the time to edit. I really love what you've done to the first one. I like the lighting much better and the softer background gives more impact to the fg. The softness also projects the gentleness that was taking place, an act of kindness on the part of the older boy. Very nice.

The second crop I feel is too close. For one, it emphasizes the lack of focus on the frog, and it draws my eye to the wrist portion in the upper left rather than to the frog. Plus, I like the young boy's bracelet in the shot for some reason.

Sandra,

I did the first picture second and that was when I decided that the bracelet and receiving dominated giving. I had to try both. I spent them most time on the tighter crop. The wider crop was done very fast because I felt I need to emphasize the gentleness, care and feelings in receiving.

Thanks for being so open to someone trying alternative presentations to your opportune snap of these two kids and their frog.

Asher

Sandra Jones · Oct 16, 2009

All good Asher. I'm glad the tenderness was felt by you, too. Now one more thing if you will..could you give me a quick rundown about how you acheived the softness? I tried it myself by duplicating the image, blurring the lower layer then using a layer mask on the upper layer to expose what I wanted blurred. I got an interesting (?) image but not what you have. Is this anything close to what you did?

Asher Kelman · Oct 16, 2009

Sandra Jones said:
All good Asher. I'm glad the tenderness was felt by you, too. Now one more thing if you will..could you give me a quick rundown about how you acheived the softness? I tried it myself by duplicating the image, blurring the lower layer then using a layer mask on the upper layer to expose what I wanted blurred. I got an interesting (?) image but not what you have. Is this anything close to what you did?

Hi Sandra,

I do each step in separate layers and go back to previously layers to adjust as needed. First everything is made darker but the hands and arms, but not all of each arm or hand is shown through the mask, just where it needs to be. So there is always a fall off. I use say 12-25% or so to draw on the mask and constantly change the brush size using the [, ] brackets. Then I have a layer that's lightened with most of this masked out except where I want parts of the arms, hands and frog bright. I'll select the frog, feather that selection and lighten it in several stages, with the selection reduced in size, and give it pop with a contrast curve. Finally the image is sharpened but faded in luminosity and most of the sharpened layer of the image is masked out except the key features. So we end up, hopefully, with a more 3D appearance that looks live.

Each time I might reduce the percentage of what that layer contributes to the final picture and in the end I use a large portion of all that edit-merge layer, but blend back a tiny percent back with the original. I'll send you the PS file if you PM me your email.

Hope this doesn't seem to complicated.

Asher

Sandra Jones · Oct 16, 2009

Asher Kelman said:
Hi Sandra,

I do each step in separate layers and go back to previously layers to adjust as needed. First everything is made darker but the hands and arms, but not all of each arm or hand is shown through the mask, just where it needs to be. So there is always a fall off. I use say 12-25% or so to draw on the mask and constantly change the brush size using the [, ] brackets. Then I have a layer that's lightened with most of this masked out except where I want parts of the arms, hands and frog bright. I'll select the frog, feather that selection and lighten it in several stages, with the selection reduced in size, and give it pop with a contrast curve. Finally the image is sharpened but faded in luminosity and most of the sharpened layer of the image is masked out except the key features. So we end up, hopefully, with a more 3D appearance that looks live.

Each time I might reduce the percentage of what that layer contributes to the final picture and in the end I use a large portion of all that edit-merge layer, but blend back a tiny percent back with the original. I'll send you the PS file if you PM me your email.

Hope this doesn't seem to complicated.

Asher

Oh my goodness yes, that does sound complicated, but I'd love to learn to work this way. I'll need to print this out and study it. lol I haven't ventured much past levels, curves, a few image layers and sharpening. I'd be very grateful for the PS file to see the inner workings of it. That's mighty gracious of you, well beyond expectations. Thanks so much for your help.

Doug Kerr · Oct 16, 2009

Hi, Sandra,

Sandra Jones said:
This summer I had family visiting and two nephews went down to the creek to catch frogs. Here is a picture of the older nephew passing a frog to the younger. I really like this image and would like to print it for myself.

Wonderful!

Sandra Jones · Oct 16, 2009

Doug_Kerr said:
Hi, Sandra,

Wonderful!

aww, thanks so much Doug.

BTW, love the story about how you met Carla.

Ken Tanaka · Oct 16, 2009

The first image you posted is the best. The composition is very good...almost too technical. Arms reaching from three corners to the frog's eye at dead center. Your contrast is a touch heavy, as it's almost drowned the frog. Personally, I hate obvious artificial sweeteners in photographs such as fake blurs and vignettes (sorry Asher).

Yes, there are some distractions but "distractions" often serve to fill-in otherwise untold aspects. For example, the boy's bracelet suggests that he has a medical alert condition. The older man's fingernails suggest that he works with his hands. Accurate or not, these little details help to create total images that linger in the mind. In fact, they're core elements of what professional photographers and photographic artists use to season images. I realize that this was just a cute family memento snap. But you can use lessons observed in it to create less casual, and very polished, imagery.

Asher Kelman · Oct 16, 2009

Ken Tanaka said:
The first image you posted is the best. The composition is very good...almost too technical. Arms reaching from three corners to the frog's eye at dead center. Your contrast is a touch heavy, as it's almost drowned the frog. Personally, I hate obvious artificial sweeteners in photographs such as fake blurs and vignettes (sorry Asher).

Me too! For my own pictures, I'd use aperture and lens choice to get the effect I want. My edits only are meant to show how the idea can be presented. My first attempt (the darker second picture, above), was too brief. In my final picture, however, (the first one I showed), the rough fingers of the giver and the medical bracelet of the receiver, were made especially clear, as they added defining character to the two boys that you also recognized.

The other distractions of the background simply don't arise at f1.4-1.8 with a 50 mm lens. The only way to deliver and image with hierarchy of the elements is to show what it might look like by editing. If the technique was better implemented, the photoshopping wouldn't have been evident to you. I don't think it's the effect that bothers you, rather, I guess, it's the obviousness of it's construction. That can easily be solved by more perfect post processing................. and hiding the original.

Having scene the original you are primed for wanting straightforwardness and avoiding pretension. OTOH, I'm interested also in venturing beyond the as "is" to the "might be seen as".

Asher

Sandra Jones · Oct 17, 2009

Ken...thank you for your observations and comments. Yes, I wish I had been more thoughtful with this one and had taken the time to better set it up. A lesson learned.

nicolas claris · Oct 17, 2009

Bonjour Sandra
A nice pict and a "strong" moment for the kids, though certainly not the same for the frog!

I gave a try from your original file and tried to strengthen the force of the "exchanging" hands and the presence of the frog as well…

For that purpose the crop is a little tighter than yours, some work on highlights/shadows and saturation of the frog. Then denoising and sharpening… As Ken, I don't like artificial bokeh…

Asher Kelman · Oct 17, 2009

Nicolas Claris said:
Bonjour Sandra
A nice pict and a "strong" moment for the kids, though certainly not the same for the frog!

I gave a try from your original file and tried to strengthen the force of the "exchanging" hands and the presence of the frog as well…

For that purpose the crop is a little tighter than yours, some work on highlights/shadows and saturation of the frog. Then denoising and sharpening…

Sandra Jones: The Hand-Off Edits Nicolas Claris

I like this version too. It looks at the strength of the hands. So you layered in the opposite direction. However, that might be the wrong message. Your words said it, fun for the kids and not for the hapless frog, LOL!

Nicolas Claris said:
As Ken, I don't like artificial bokeh…

That's like saying I don't like artificial Rolex watches or other knockoffs! Who would disagree with either you or Ken? The point is that the effect of grading the importance of the subject and added gentleness to the picture is what softening does. I'm certain that softness can be achieved in photoshop that you wouldn't recognize not from the lens. It just takes a lot more time, devotion and skill. The idea, however, of presenting the idea the way I have shown is sound.

Using f 2.0, for example is the take home message from my version. It shows where Sandra can make the next image more expressive of her observation of the handover. Still there are 2 underlying and opposing themes,

the power of the kids over the destiny of the frog which you show.
the precious fragility of the beautiful frog being gently given and received, which I attempted to bring out in post # 3 above.

If the picture had been taken with a wide aperture and then worked on, it might show both effects seamlessly.

Asher

nicolas claris · Oct 17, 2009

Asher Kelman said:
I like this version too. It looks at the strength of the hands. So you layered in the opposite direction. However, that might be the wrong message. Your words said it, fun for the kids and not for the hapless frog, LOL!

hmmmm… no layer needed…

Asher Kelman said:
That's like saying I don't like artificial Rolex watches or other knockoffs! Who would disagree with either you or Ken? The point is that the effect of grading the importance of the subject and added gentleness to the picture is what softening does. I'm certain that softness can be achieved in photoshop that you wouldn't recognize not from the lens. It just takes a lot more time, devotion and skill. The idea, however, of presenting the idea the way I have shown is sound.

LoL! I'm not as the French President, I have no interest in Rollex watches or expensive pens!

Asher Kelman said:
Using f 2.0, for example is the take home message from my version. It shows where Sandra can make the next image more expressive of her observation of the handover. Still there are 2 underlying and opposing themes,

Agreed, if this is only for the sake of showing

Asher Kelman said:
If the picture had been taken with a wide aperture and then worked on, it might show both effects seamlessly.

This is why it's much better to think, frame and compose before activating the shutter…

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Oct 17, 2009

Nicolas Claris said:
This is why it's much better to think, frame and compose before activating the shutter…

Yes, I agree, that's also the way I shoot. Compose in your mind's eye, then use the camera to capture for real. But I also understand that it's not something everybody can do, especially when it's a spontaneous capture.

Yet, one can preset the aperture to a preferred setting, e.g. wide or narrow aperture, or short or average exposure time, depending on what's appropriate for the situation, and use that as a starting point. It is something that can be learned, with lots of practice.

Cheers,
Bart

Sandra Jones · Oct 18, 2009

OMG..I'm getting so boggled now I don't even know what to say anymore..lol

Nicolas..thanks you so much for taking the time to work on the image. I love the way you made the frog 'pop' out. It's a nice crop too, still showing a little of the bracelet which is really enough to project what I wanted to show. I actually like it better than the full bracelet.

I notice a lack of texture in the skin. Is this due to the noise reduction? This is the only thing I don't like as it looks a little flat (for lack of a better word).

I absolutely do like Asher's version with the blurred background. It is too bad I didn't have the right choice of settings to get that in camera, but I'd have to agree with him, if one didn't see the original you'd have a hard time telling it was manipulated.

Nicolas said:
I'm not as the French President

lol lol

P.S. just so no one is worried about the frog, he was released.

Bart...I thank you and everyone for adding to the discussion. You have certainly given me a lot to think about. It's all good. How nice.

nicolas claris · Oct 18, 2009

Sandra Jones said:
I notice a lack of texture in the skin. Is this due to the noise reduction? This is the only thing I don't like as it looks a little flat (for lack of a better word).

Hi Sandra
I agree with you, there are 2 reasons, the first being that I haven't spent enough time to achieve a better result technically speaking… I should have layered the denoising process to tget the skin back with details… The other reason is that it's have been a "heavy" processing of a JPEG file, gimme the raw file and I could get better results.
But at the end, I agree with you, the skin looks flat (to adopt a correct wording ;-)

Sandra Jones · Oct 18, 2009

Nicolas Claris said:
Hi Sandra
I agree with you, there are 2 reasons, the first being that I haven't spent enough time to achieve a better result technically speaking… I should have layered the denoising process to tget the skin back with details… The other reason is that it's have been a "heavy" processing of a JPEG file, gimme the raw file and I could get better results.
But at the end, I agree with you, the skin looks flat (to adopt a correct wording ;-)

I certainly knew you could do better and I know I didn't give you much to work with. My mother has a saying, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." This applies here.

I'm sorry I can't give you a RAW file because it just doesn't exist. Why? Because I don't shoot RAW. :O I know that's a sin and I want to repent and change my ways, which is why I made just such a post here. I hope you will take the time to comment in that thread. Your input is always appreciated. TIA

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