20D focus problems

I've been using my 20D for about 2 years. I shoot horse shows about every weekend in the summer. I always have a high percentage of shots that are out of focus. It doesn't matter if they are running or standing still. I've tried a monopod and a tripod. I've tried AI servo and one shot. I always use a fast shutter speed when they are running. I get the same results with my 70-200 f4, 70-200 f2.8 IS, 500 and with all my lenses. I did get a lot more keepers when I went to just the center focus point but still a lot out of focus any time i'm 50 feet or more away.
My cousin, a nikon man, said that damn canon needs to be calibrated. I used his nikon D2X and 70-200VR for one show and a very high percentage were keepers. Before that I blamed myself.
Is this something canon can fix?

I think that I will wait and see what canon comes out with early in the spring and get a new version of the 5D or 1DmIIn. Only thing with the 5D is the fps. I usually shoot 4 frames at a jump trying to get that perfect shot.

A used 1DII should be available for portrait and landscape guys who went for the 1DII before and now have the 5D.

You will be much happier with a 1DII. It is designed for what you do. Of course you may have a calibration issue with your 20D. If I was in your position I'd look for a used 1DII and keep the 20D as backup.

20D, unfortunately has lost a bit in value, but it still is a very good camera. The thing is, can you get it recalibrated within warranty? If not how much would it be?

Asher

Hi Ron
It does sound like you may have a calibration issue there.
Like Asher has said, a used 1DII may be a good idea; although, taking the camera to be calibrated, will be a more economical avenue.
In the mean, time try to get around the issue by using manual focus, you can always pre-focus on a part of the track were you know the horses are going to pass by, once you done this, is only a matter of following the horses with a nice steady pan, and releasing the shutter at the right place. Most of my motor sport shots were done that way, the 20D was, and still is, a great tool, but I found the technique above was more reliable that Canon’s auto-tracking (AI servo).
Kind regards
IGD

Hi Ron,

I have a 20D. I never use anything except the single centre focus point. It works fine on that. It is more precise than the other focus points. Re your moose photos, what are the multi focus points actually focussing on?

You need something 'contrasty' for it to focus on. A moose's black rump, is not the perfect focus target, twigs and grass is better. Search out on the net, you will find plenty of explanations re the size/orientation of the 20d focus points.

Now, if your camera/lens is out of adjustment, then try the spice jar test, or newsprint/ruler at an angle, to get some idea.

wrt manual focus, well if you can manage that in the tiny viewfinder, then do it. Works ok if you increase the iso, so you can stop down, to give more margin for error.

I mean, all you have is a tiny little computer, trying to guess what the subject is, winding lenses in and out at a rate of knots. Sometimes you just got to give it a hand.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ron,

I've put >40,000 frames through my 20D and if there's one thing that has always bugged me is the soft focus issue. I've had mine checked out and have done the ruler test and its fine.
However its never been right. I bought a 2nd hand 10D and that performed much better on longer lenses. I personally believe the 20D suffers from excessive mirror slap when compared to other models. I've put this to test using mirror lock up and seen much sharper results.

What technique do you use when shooting, do you rest your hand on top of the lens to help minimise mirror slap vibration?. I found this really helps on the 20D even with the 70-200mm lens.

Asher Kelman said:

A used 1DII should be available for portrait and landscape guys who went for the 1DII before and now have the 5D.

You will be much happier with a 1DII. It is designed for what you do. Of course you may have a calibration issue with your 20D. If I was in your position I'd look for a used 1DII and keep the 20D as backup.

20D, unfortunately has lost a bit in value, but it still is a very good camera. The thing is, can you get it recalibrated within warranty? If not how much would it be?

Asher

Click to expand...

First off I don't want anyone to think that I'm blaming the camera for my shortcomings. I very much like this camera and always have. If I get another camera it will still be ME taking the pictures. I have blamed my self for the problems with the focus from day one. When I used my cousins D2X and had many many more keepers I thought, well this is a much more expensive camera maybe that is the difference. Last week I tried my cousins D80 that he uses for a walk around camera with cheap lenses, not my L glass, and it took great pictures. I had expected it to not be in the league with my 20D. Thats when I started thinking maybe its a camera focus problem not me.

I had planned on up grading this fall anyway. I had hoped for a 5D with more fps and more focus points like the 1DMII or a updated 1DMIIN. They are fine cameras right now but since I don't really need it again until April if they come out with something special by Feb. or March I'll kick myself for not waiting.

I do think that I'll have the calibration checked for peace of mind and keep the 20D for backup.

Anyones thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Ivan Garcia said:

Hi Ron
It does sound like you may have a calibration issue there.
Like Asher has said, a used 1DII may be a good idea; although, taking the camera to be calibrated, will be a more economical avenue.
In the mean, time try to get around the issue by using manual focus, you can always pre-focus on a part of the track were you know the horses are going to pass by, once you done this, is only a matter of following the horses with a nice steady pan, and releasing the shutter at the right place. Most of my motor sport shots were done that way, the 20D was, and still is, a great tool, but I found the technique above was more reliable that Canon’s auto-tracking (AI servo).
Kind regards
IGD

Click to expand...

I will have to try your manual pre-focus. It sounds like a good idea.

given the range of lenses, the range of focus distances, the range of subjects (stationary and moving), the range of lens supports and the fact that the problem does not occur with the other camera (the Nikon) it seems obvious that you have a dud camera rather than defective lenses or technique. Get it fixed by Canon. You'll also be able to say that it's been serviced by Canon when it comes time to selling it.

I have a 20D. I never use anything except the single centre focus point. It works fine on that. It is more precise than the other focus points. Re your moose photos, what are the multi focus points actually focussing on?

You need something 'contrasty' for it to focus on. A moose's black rump, is not the perfect focus target, twigs and grass is better. Search out on the net, you will find plenty of explanations re the size/orientation of the 20d focus points.

Ray,
I have been using the single center focus point for a year and a half. I tried the multi points last week on some landscape shots to see what it would do again. When I shot the moose I realized I hadn't set it back and did so after a few shots. I agree it does much better with the single center point. Believe me, I have been reading on the 20D focusing for 2 years.

John,
I always cradle the lense with the left had and shoot with the right hand. I'll try your way and see what it does.

Alan,
I agree with you. At least if I send it in I will have peace of mind.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. I appreciate it.

Hi Ron,

Have you tried, on a tripod, mirror lo, timer, whatever, to do any serious focus tests with your lenses and camera? If you want it calibrated, afaik, you need to send in your lenses and the camera, there is an acceptable tolerance factor, and if you have a good tech. guy, he will match them up.

If, in the last few shots of the moose, you used the centre focus, then either you have moved the camera, hoping to keep the same focus if you had 'aimed' at the moose, or you have focussed on the grass, or you've cropped the photo. What I'm trying to say, is obvious, but if you are using centre focus, and you want the eye to be sharp, and there is enough 'contrasty pattern' in the eye, then the focus point has to be on the eye, and I can't tell if that was so. (You can tell, if you look at the raw images in 'eos viewer utility' exactly which focus points were used, and where they were on the image.) and I guess you know the focus area is not as indicated for each point.

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Ron,

Having checked your moose raw image on the other thread, the focus point is 'right on the nose', so to speak, but I noticed the aperture was at f2.8, and a speed of 1/30. I have no experiance of is lenses, but I believe those settings will not give the sharpest images.

Best wishes,

Ray

I agree with you Ray. However that doesn't change the fact that I've had this problem since day one. Yesterday I looked thhrough some dressage RAWs shot with the 70-200 f4 that I had saved to a CD. They were shot with a tripod f7.1 1/500 to 1/1250 ISO 200 center point only focus and better than 60% were out of focus. In the dressage ring the horses are not moving fast and it should be easy. I bought the 70-200 f2.8 IS because of this. I got more keepers but still keep having a high number of out of focus shots.
As I told Don Cohen, I had rotator cuff surgery 3 1/2 weeks befoe I took the moose shots. I'm not supposed to use the camera for 6 weeks. I really don't have the range of motion back in the arm yet to get the camera up to my eye for more than a few seconds at a time without quite a bit of pain. It was very late in the day so I set to ap priority and snapped away not noticing ISO 200. Wouldn't it be nice to have the ISO show in the view finder all the time. I even forgot to zoom in. Under the circumstances with the excitement and the pain I felt lucky to get any at all.

Hi Ron,

I wasn't being critical of the photos, I mean, unless you were wanting to really blow them up, the raw one you posted is good enough, nothing that qimage wouldn't handle. Also, you will probably crop a fair bit away, to frame it, so resolution will go.

I find I can't see half the stuff I should on the 20d, either in the viewdfinder or on the lcd's - hence my earlier comment re. manual focus. (Sometimes I have to set it to 'green box' mode, for me to be sure of at least getting something ;-( ). All I can normally see, is the histogram, sort of. Much of it being due to having to keep changing my glasses, but also the poor performance of lcd's in daylight, and the poxy little viewfinder. Its all a compromise.

So, basically, the moose was there, you were there with a camera, but most everything else was stacked against you., but you still got some interesting images. I reckon that is far, far better than you not even being there .... ;-)

If you are not supposed to be using the camera for a few weeks, then it would indeed be a good time to bundle it all up with the lenses, and get it all checked out.

Best wishes,

Ray

John_Nevill said:

I personally believe the 20D suffers from excessive mirror slap when compared to other models. I've put this to test using mirror lock up and seen much sharper results.

Click to expand...

Very interesting... certainly the mirror slap is quite loud compared to just about every other DSLR available, but the thought had never occured to me that it could also cause more vibration.

Jason C Doss said:

Very interesting... certainly the mirror slap is quite loud compared to just about every other DSLR available, but the thought had never occured to me that it could also cause more vibration.

Click to expand...

I've got a 20d and I do find that MLU is important for tripod shots, especially on longer exposures. Not noticeably more so than the old 300D, though. It's just a matter of squeezing the last bit of sharpness possible out of the equipment.

I generally try for at least 2x the old 1/focal length rule for hand holdable shutter speeds (e.g. 100mm lens, I want 1/200 without IS for sharpness). If I'm following that (and am not shaking with adrenaline jitters or something like that) I don't generally see any evidence of camera shake.

I've got one lens that throws an unusual number of out of focus images. The 100-400 will, but only on subjects that are moving rapidly towards or away from it. I blame that on it just being a little slow to focus. I've not noticed anything similar with my 70-200 F4.

So... I'm with everyone else on the recalibrate front. Either I got an especially good one, or there's nothing inherent in the 20d.

Jason C Doss said:

Very interesting... certainly the mirror slap is quite loud compared to just about every other DSLR available, but the thought had never occured to me that it could also cause more vibration.

Click to expand...

Just a provocative thought. Since part of the mirror slap energy is dissipated as sound, wouldn't that also leave less energy for camera shake (while obviously assuming some kind of shock-absorber to keep the mirror/hinges from breaking).

Another thought. The mirror slap happens before the shutter curtain opens. We also don't know what type of shake (low/high frequency, orientation) is generated. Therefore it is all a bit too uncertain how/if the sound correlates with the shake at the time the shutter is opened.

In the end, we are basically looking at the efficiency of the photographer or his/her mono/tripod to shock-absorb whatever vibration is really generated in directions perpendicular to the optical axis. Wood and carbon-fiber as support material have the best properties.

I guess we need an OPF member with access to very accurate accelerometers.

Bart

I've been shooting with a 20D as a second camera to my 5D for weddings with a 50mm 1.4 wide open. A couple of points. Firstly focus recompose will garuantee you front focus, especially with lenses from 50mm plus and at closer distances. Just to make it more difficult, the center point on the 20D/5D is the only one that is in any way accurate with the 20D being very good at focusing at the background instead of the subject when using non central focus points. With non central focus points I'm not exaggating when I say that I usually will get 1 in 3 shots where the focus will have missed even on such a large target as a persons head on a 2/3 portrait!

I had a front focus problem with my 24-70L and I sent it back to canon 6 times before giving up. It wasn't until the wedding I shot on Thursday when I religeously used the correct focus point for each shot that I realised that there was nothing wrong with the focus calibration of the lens or the camera, it was the focus accuracy of the consumer grade focusing alogorithms that canon insist on putting into a £2500 camera which was causing the problem the whole time.

The answer really is to shoot a lot and refocus each time, focus bracketing in other words when you need critical focus and cannot rely on manual focus.

Ben Rubinstein said:

...that I realised that there was nothing wrong with the focus calibration of the lens or the camera, it was the focus accuracy of the consumer grade focusing alogorithms...

Click to expand...

Interesting you should say that. I've been finding focusing issues with my 20D, (surprise surprise) and I have tried basic tests like mounting it on my tripod and taking a few pictures of a woolen hat or something with texture and there's no problem it seems when the camera's absolutely motionless.

So as you say Ben - by my thinking - it doesn't seem to be lenses or the camera's mirror slap but rather the focusing alogorithms. Saying that, manual focus is always spot on (well as spot on as my eye is) but maybe there's an issue with auto focus when the camera is moving?

Btw the picture on your website of Sconser Sunset is really cool!

Theo,
I got my 20D shortly after they came out. I had focus issues from day one. Coming from film and being completely new to digital I believed everyone when they said it was me. I spent a lot of money on lenses, monopod, tripod and just about everything I could think of to fix it. On a good day I might have had 20% keepers. Even when I was convinced I had got some great shots, when I got home most would be out of focus. I had been shooting horse shows almost every weekend from spring through the fall for several summers. I was so devastated that I didn't shoot one show last year. I was going to go back to film. I sent the camera in late last fall and canon found both the focus was off as well as the exposure. My pictures were always dark unless I used compensation. It is a whole new camera now. I only wish that I had not gone through the experiance to get what I have now.

It may be time to send the camera in for a service. Especially as you say yours had issues from day 1! Although, I bought my 20D only a few months before the 30D came into the stores, otherwise I would have bought a 30D. Mind you I only seem to have focus issues when shooting while tracking a subject and then not even all the time. Like I said I think the camera might have a problem when it comes specifically to auto focus while moving. Oh I don't know - it requires more investigation that's for sure.

In this day and age it makes you wonder whether all this is just a big marketing ploy by the likes of Canon/Nikon to get you to spend money & buy stuff like tripods, monopods etc...