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Got my P 25

Finally I took the plunge and reserved the P 25 form my Mamiya 645AFD. I don't have the back yet, but as soon as I do I can post some images. Of course I will not be the first to have a P 25, but...

So now is the time and place to say ... you should have ...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So pleased for you Leonardo!

Those large pixels are the deal!

How much did that cost you, may I ask? Also would you have bought the Mamiya had you not the camera already?

How do you go from portrait to landscape and how is it normally?

Asher
 
Asher, I got mine refurbished, today I had a demonstration from dealer, and it has few hundred actuations what it means that its almost new or probably a demo. This one is black, the feeling is swiss army knife solid, compact like a rock it is really elegant and minimal. I came in a black pelican case with Firewire cable, two batteries and a slick dual battery charger, free software updates and one year "hot" warranty. If something happens with the back the give you one while they fix it. Sensor cleaner 1G CF etc. Total $14.000

Menus are simple easy clear and to the point. The program has a Mac OS/Photoshop look and very intuitive, when the camera is connected to the cable the program "sets up" the back and you can shoot and view just details of the raw files at 100%. This is like converting just small parts of files from raw just to check IQ.

Regarding to Mamiya or not Mamiya is a complete different topic, I have always had something from them, C330 twin lens reflex, RB, RZ, an now 645. What the technical guy said to me is that Mamiya is very much like Hasselblad (Fujifilm), -- Hx zooms where better -- and that it was "overpriced" Im happy with mine because it is a lot smaller as a system, and very easy to hold. He showed me the Sinar 645 system and (it was enormous in size and price)

The viewfinder of the 645 is very good, even with glasses you don't touch the camera if don't want to see full frame, it is simple, not a lot of features, and AF works, but not as fast as some 35mm. There is no rotating back a la RB/RZ, so you rotate the camera to portrait, but it is no different than with my Fuji S2 (no vertical grip)

I'm so happy, now I have to find a way to pay the loan.... and insure it etc

Ah, they also give free training
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sounds absolutely wonderful, Leonardo! This is great. We're looking forward to your pictures. What lenses do you have and how much is it to get another 1-2 years hot warranty?

This is a great event.

While may progressed from getting to know that her Canon G2 Digicam was a great camera and learned about RAW, LightZone and now printing, you have made this important move. We hope to see the MF and large format representation here grow further.

Anyone else considering a new back?

Asher
 
New York is keeping me much more busy than Mexico, I have two dogs and one 5y kid so will do my best to keep you informed of my experience on MF digital photography. I can only say that I fill a bit burdened by the responsibility of having to pay for the back plus making a profit, but I decided that this was the way to go and the time also.

The question about extending the warranty is interesting, I think you can do it, I have to see what is the cost of insurance etc.

It will take some time until I can begin using it, but I will take may good old Fujifilm S2 out in the meantime ...
 
congrats...
the prices for the 22mp backs really are in a payable region now. and the difference to 33/39mp ofcourse is there ( with best lenses ) but i made absolute stunning prints up to 60" with my emotion22,- so dont worry about that...
at least i dont. often i use my 22mp back onb the hassy side by side ( with long lenses for details ) with the gottschalt with the 33mp back,- i never even think about that the 22mp will be worser for its resolution.

you will love it...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Rainer,

Glad you're here! So you have the Gottschalt back from the factory! Lucky guy!

So you think the number of pixels in the Sinar 75 pays off? I did see your last image and was amazed. Is this a different result than with Phase backs?

With the Phase, it said there might be some degradation of image DR and or noise with smaller pixel pitch. Is that your finding?

Asher
 
Anyone has advice on the issue of insurance for equipment like this. How does it work? What companies are good etc.

Also, recommended credit options. And... client list pleas (just kidding)
 
I forgot to report what my dealer said about Mamiya. I don't know his sources, but the story is this.

Mamiya got in to trouble with the ZD project -- IQ really bad and wont be distributed in USA -- so it was weak and in risk of becoming merger target. Then there was a japanese company that consumed a lot of optics for medical applications and bought Mamiya to have a source of top quality glass (I believed it was a software co. that did that, but I'm just telling what he said) and they have decided that the 645 AFD is their model and will discontinue RB, RZ and the 7 range-finders, but that the have all the capital they need and that they may come up with the 28mm.

It all makes sense, they could focus on the model that fits the digital era and a few more lenses wont hurt. (the 28mm and some PC pease?)

The ZD is a good idea, even brilliant if only had a "phaseOne Powered" logo outside...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
leonardobarreto.com said:
they have decided that the 645 AFD is their model and will discontinue RB, RZ and the 7 range-finders, but that the have all the capital they need and that they may come up with the 28mm.

It all makes sense, they could focus on the model that fits the digital era and a few more lenses wont hurt. (the 28mm and some PC pease?)

The ZD is a good idea, even brilliant if only had a "phaseOne Powered" logo outside...

I wonder whether this can be confirmed by anyone?

If this is true, then the hope is that

1. They will continue to service the existing RB, RX and 7 models.

2. They will not go the closed system route of Hasselblad but take the announced bold path of the promised Hy6 with an open system for, at the least, all backs.

Having two standard sytems wil help these companies firm a user space and gather new users as prosumers and professionals continue to migrate to better pixels and a more detailed image.

However, in this industry if two executives have lunch at Photokina, then new models are offered as means of stengthening falling brand standing in the photgraphic community.

Let's hope it's more than dreams after wine!

Asher
 

Steve Hendrix

New member
leonardobarreto.com said:
Finally I took the plunge and reserved the P 25 form my Mamiya 645AFD. I don't have the back yet, but as soon as I do I can post some images. Of course I will not be the first to have a P 25, but...

So now is the time and place to say ... you should have ...

Leonard:

You should have......

.....done exactly what you did. By that, I mean get on with it. Assuming that you put all the choices through their paces and made a decision based on what you felt, from your testing, was the right choice for your particular situation, you did what anyone should do when they're ready and informed: make the purchase and start using the gear.

One of the benefits that rarely gets mentioned when going through the process of either going digital, or upgrading digital is that, once you have made the choice and gone forward, all the stress of the decision and angst of the decision making process (and it can be a stressful decision when you're spending $20K, $30K, $40K, etc) is behind you and you can get back to creating.

Good luck and enjoy.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
 
Steve

Thank you. I researched all aspects of this. I started with the BetterLight. I was accepted to their owners forum and asked all the questions in a very long thread. At the end a friend in the art repro business here in NY said: "no one needs more than 50MB files" and that was the last thing that moved me away from a scanning back. I know that the quote could be debated and certainly there are more-than-50MB-aplications in the world, but he meant that in practical terms 50MB was a good size.

The other decision, about the camera system was easy because I had sold some 8x10 lenses, and the RZ system and got a 645AFD with 80mm 45mm 15mm

Then I websearched the backs. Didn't like lif's fan system, the large screen could cause more problems than be useful. Also service and software are not the best.

PhaseOne has the following advantages: Best software in the business. Camera is solid construction (like swiss army knife) and navigation simple and intuitive.

But the most important is the energy/heat management that produces clean files.

The other thing to consider is that since they have 60% market share there are more backs to get second hand. They provide training and hot warranty, but as you say, all of this can be put to sleep, -- at least for me -- and begin debugging the system, learning how to balance the color, developing a work flow, and finding the clients etc.

I only want to say that this forums are an incredible tool to make an informed decision on a very risky investment, so thank you all for your opinions and I hope we can all enjoy the next chapter: shooting the P 25.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Steve,

I think you hit the nail on the head! In fact I'd wager that digital photography has created huge circles of neurotic obsessionalism: we get megapixel-MTF-numb from reviews on an endless stream of "me-to" digicams, DSLR's lenses and digital backs, some imaginary some real.

Once one is ready to buy, the suffering peaks. The only solutions are liquor or buying the gear. We really suffer!

Asher
 
hi asher,
havent seen your questions .. sorry me for beeing so silent.
no- the gottschalt still isnt finished, i just finished my bangkok job yesterday and will go to germany tomorrow.
maybee i find time in december to return the camera to him to finish the things he promised to do,- i am evry busy next weeks also.

about the e75: yes it pays of for my needs, but i was ( and i am ) very content with my e22 back also.
good advantage of the 33mp is that you can crop now,- but its really not a "MUST" to have more than 22mp.
the pixel quality is about the same or better with the e75 than with the e22, ofcourse it depends on the lenses,- at least with the sinaron HR lenses i can tell that. they are so sharp... and than the senosr is also.

greatings to you... hope you and your wife are fine
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Rainer,

It's always good to hear from you!

In order to use the Sinaron lenses which bodies must one have?

Also, now that you have done all this work, how do you rate the value of the diiferent MFR's backs in the 20-25 MP range? After all, there's not so many out there that we can easily get unbiased opinions?

My kindest regards to your dear family,

Asher
 
Asher, I want to say here, even under danger of drifting off topic, that the apartment for rent market in NY is ridiculous. No space walk ups in the ends of the island for $4k/month. On the other side, the financial opportunities of "America" (I'm centralamerican) are not to be underestimated I called my credit card and they can finance the P25 for payments of $320 a month.

This in the line of Steve's thought that one should just doit. For me as a nanobusines entrepreneur 14K is a risk investment, but I think that I can make minimum payments of $320 a month. This back, after all rents for more than that on a day basis.

Then --after I find my ap., rent my desk space etc -- I could get lucky and find a nice gig, I could pay a big chunck of the P25, like $3k etc.

The only problem would be to see that the go under $10k in one year, that's the risk part of it, but at leas I would have jumped in to the high end and no one could take away the experience of working with this machine now.

What do you think?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
leonardobarreto.com said:
Asher, I want to say here, even under danger of drifting off topic, that the apartment for rent market in NY is ridiculous. No space walk ups in the ends of the island for $4k/month. On the other side, the financial opportunities of "America" (I'm centralamerican) are not to be underestimated I called my credit card and they can finance the P25 for payments of $320 a month.

....
What do you think?

What do I think Leonardo?

I think $320 is a superbargain! I can't believe that is so cheap. One could make money renting them out! Just rent it out one weekend a month to a wedding photographer. What you have written is downright eyeopening.

However, you already have the Mamiya body and lenses. However, I heard that Phase one might be offering bodies for free.

Asher
 
Asher Kelman said:
Rainer,

It's always good to hear from you!

In order to use the Sinaron lenses which bodies must one have?




Also, now that you have done all this work, how do you rate the value of the diiferent MFR's backs in the 20-25 MP range? After all, there's not so many out there that we can easily get unbiased opinions?

My kindest regards to your dear family,

Asher

they can be mounted in every camera which accepts symmetric lense constructions,- also the wides are not real symmetric, but they also come close to the sensor.
i am clearly biased to the dalsa sensor in the 22mp range,- because they are ( more or less ) free from any discoloration. with 33mp the things might be different, but still the dalsa quality for me seems to be superior. no purple fringing, very clean hi contrast edges......
 
Interesting, I was just finishing to read a thread about the same question. I have used mine with film since the P 25 will be my first back (I have reserved the back, but don't have it yet)

The batteries, with film, last a long time. This are not rechargeable but regular ones, The P 25 has a battery for the camera, so I think that they work independently. I know that, wen connected to a computer with a FireWire cable, the back is powered by the computer.

I would just put some replacement batteries for the body in my camera bag and not worry too much about it. I have not changed mines since I got the camera -- Adorama included a set of new ones -- and I made several portrait assignments with it.
 
I took the back home...

I have now the P 25 with me, I'm getting insurance that will probably be $750 or $500/ year for about $30k on or off studio. This thing sounds more like a car than a camera, doesn't it?

Anyway, I'm learning the menus: they are incredibly simple and easy to navigate. Did I mentioned that the back is solid metal? the buttons are metal, large and solid. The way to turn the back off to store in your camera back is to remove the battery that is done in a second...

All of this is just the outside of the beast because I'm, as we speak, downloading the CaptureOne drivers and Raw converters to "develop" the images.

Also I don't have my main computer with the Dreamweaver on so I could post images... all of this are things to come, so, don't touch the dial...
 
some images+coments

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RdVUWPAd2GNcK9luf_wy1N_TrDyxX8k-bTTqc5PhHVwUeNbKoCUjBQ7BJ4x1qenN6NW7i85GuV-UTb0cIZiINWA


This is a side view of the camera and back -- sorry for the motion, the AFD is on my only tripod and I'm using a LUMIX with room light --. The camera/back integration is good. At the top-left of the P 25 there is a security lock to make sure the back stays attached to the camera, and bellow there is the only moving part of the device: the CF door.

Here you can see the battery on the right side with a lock. Also the four metal navigation buttons. This is the "desktop" with Play / Menu / ISO / WB. Everything is metal, the buttons, the door, and the LCD is under strong glass.

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RT9qoyaUl7VHskNN7hObESqq5mgrMDZgMaIZwb9J8GM92aEH6m6edFEBGkDEFYkfXkqoZyAVkar_j1Z5h9W13DI


x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RdypjDSoIuyCQXC87oj_b3afy96lWRl1YLTSZjm8k9pjiF3ykIbFJNCeSTgtYWsozZtC2Q2Hm3ugHRLhBO9zuMc


This is the CF door. Camera or back has no feedback built in to the door, you can leave it open i you want...

Bellow there is a snap shot I took with my Lumix of the view inside the finder of the 645AFD. I was surprised by the almost FFness of the sensor. The mask is a plastic "thing" that goes on top of focus screen; a bit un precise and dirty, but has no neg. effect on IQ.

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RdDNd1SqcNZWgfsdExmS7foyk_ngYAuMotnK1e-Lehe76SvrAtxS5klSkgCIJMMHnHyA864F2i7V40QeTGqsMZU
 
This is the way turn on/off the back, just slide on the battery and make sure the back is not draining it on the case... This is a very elegant precise design

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RbuWgHxBM36Z5BhYz9tCg6RuSXrdFPmnXcAWtVa1o32lw4G7GfmqpAOy_PO4KYA7Fs86EhaonxheIMO8XjiyxkQ


The two battery charger is elegant and practical too

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RSBbG4y_4IM2hhgadXS74vWhYTmzY0AwqATPdYHsh_A8LdbmRRYr7Gq5AawVfawGzAXEVnBToT-1Kczood9d7po


one more view of the back from the back..

x1pBUhXwLJbB4tMhlmpqT-3RVADDaLAoOWZxMxzgn95lBLurRdwk_nFiKeKraBcs6Btt44Ed_Con-OEZ8ioTyuUg14XWo8OZBHpTYL-rhpO2IU
 
Yes, I know you, I will test the camera next week. I will go to a friend's studio since I just got to NY and I'm in a ApartHotel in the village. The back is not insure yet so I don't want to "drive" it just yet.

I have an S2 but this friend has a 1DsMk2 and Betterlight, This is not small side arms weapon but artillery, you need the Mac towers, the dual displays and heavy tripods to do proper tests, since I came by plane from Mexico and my studio stuff is coming by container...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Leonardo,

This report you are doing is superb. I like the fact that it is a used back. This shows that one does not have to spend over $20,000 to get going! Of course the test is in the actual files.

I hope you can do some side by side tests with some other cameras.

Were you being humerous about removing the battery as the way to turn off the camera?

Good luck and we all wish you well on everything you and your family are doing.

Asher
 

Daniel Harrison

pro member
Hi Asher,
I think Leonardo was being serious about that, I remember reading it somewhere. That is how you turn it onand off I think. You'd think they could have put a swith somewhere?
 
there is, but it is a button that you have to keep pressing for a few seconds to turn the back off. It is far easier to remove the battery, and it is more definitive way to save juice...
 
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