Who has used the new Leica M8 and what do you think about it? [Archive]

Bart_van_der_Wolf

October 14th, 2006, 07:01 PM

I am planning to at least handle and hopefully shoot the M8 this weekend.

Any questions I should ask?

The questions I asked at Photokina just triggered the 'politically correct, or 'learned', response; "In practical use, aliasing artifacts are not too much of an issue". In reality, they tend to ruin a shot when you can least use it.

If you get a chance shooting, try including some sharp roof edges / powerlines / distant brick building walls at an angle / brick streets. They may not be your types of subjects, but they will test the extremes for a non anti-aliasing filtered Bayer CFA sensor. Also the effectiveness of the anti-vignetting micro-lens layout could be tested by shooting a uniformly lit surface (e.g. cloudless or totally clouded sky).

If you really want to get to the 'bottom' of things, shoot pairs of black-frames (fastest shutterspeed, with lenscap on, and viewfinder covered), for each ISO setting. That will allow to judge 'read-noise' performance, which is an important factor in Dynamic range calculations.

Bart

Asher Kelman

October 14th, 2006, 07:33 PM

I'll look at moire tomorrow. They are tough in letting me photograph with my card!

I'll also try to do the noise test.

My impression is that the camera is very well made and easy to focus. The focus mechanism for manual focusing is a million times better than using an Eos camera.

The viewfinder is also very bright. Luxurious, I'd call it.

The maginifier for looking at the shot is a ring top turn with arrows to move the image: so simple, no pushing several buttons!

This is one simple perfectly designed camera.

A pleasure to hold and shoot with.

Until I get the files, however, I cant say a thing beyond the color looks great on the LCD.

One last thing is that the shutter sound is louder than the M6 and has two components. A metal sound and a dull sound. Quieter than the 1DII or the 5D.

More later!

Asher

scott kirkpatrick

October 15th, 2006, 03:13 AM

Quieter than the 1DII or the 5D. -- that's not saying much!

Can you compare the shooting noise (shutter release, then rewind) with an E-1 or with a typical P&S with the lowest level "click" enabled?

Another set of questions -- viewfinder eye relief. When you are working at 35 mm-eff focal length, and have glasses or sunglasses on, can you see the framing lines? ... outside the framing lines? Is there a setting for 28 mm-eff (my recollection is that you need an external viewfinder for that) and if there is, is it usable with glasses?

Will you get a chance to handle and use the 16-18-21 and its associated viewfinder? Are you trying it with the 28/2.8 ASPH mounted, to give a 36+ mm-eff ? That's such a contrasty lens, that I would wonder how well the camera's exposure metering and image processing handles high dynamic range scenes when you work in aperture-primary mode, esp. to produce a jpeg output. Is it necessary to correct exposure, or does it just do the right things?

scott

Mike Spinak

October 15th, 2006, 05:15 PM

My impression is that the camera is very well made and easy to focus. The focus mechanism for manual focusing is a million times better than using an Eos camera.

I've been told by someone who has used this camera that the ease of focusing varies, depending on the focal length of the lens you are using: shorter focal lengths are easier, and longer focal lengths are harder. I was told that, with a 90 mm lens (the longest that is recommended, with this camera), the rectangle you are looking through to focus is rather small, and focusing becomes more difficult.

Mike

www.mikespinak.com

Jack_Flesher

October 15th, 2006, 06:53 PM

I've been told by someone who has used this camera that the ease of focusing varies, depending on the focal length of the lens you are using: shorter focal lengths are easier, and longer focal lengths are harder. I was told that, with a 90 mm lens (the longest that is recommended, with this camera), the rectangle you are looking through to focus is rather small, and focusing becomes more difficult.

Mike

www.mikespinak.com

Mike: If you've ever shot with an M camera, that comment simply makes no sense: The focus patch does not change with focal length. It IS true that the RF base-length is a lower percentage of focal length as you go up in focal, but it is still significantly wider than a comparable "split finder" in any SLR and will offer far more accurate focus than said SLR...

The *framing* patch of course changes with focal, but the focus patch does not, and this makes it more difficult to *frame* precisely as you move up in focal. Here I would agree that a 90mm lens is pushing it on an M8.

Cheers,

Mike Spinak

October 15th, 2006, 08:19 PM

Jack,

Apparently I had misunderstood. Thank you for the correction and clarification.

Cheers,

Mike

www.mikespinak.com

Kirk Thompson

October 15th, 2006, 08:43 PM

What I really want to know is what the images look like! Has Leica (I still want to say "Leitz") been successful in what amounts to simulating a concave sensor, & will image quality match DSLRs of the same resolution?

Asher Kelman

October 15th, 2006, 08:58 PM

Hi Kirk,

When I first saw the images on Sean Reid's great website, I was impressed. Now Sean is a good photographer and has great judgment based on many years of photography experience with Leica Rangegfinders and lately with Epson RD-1. Ben lifson, an accomplished photographer agreed swith Sean on the RD-1. So I'd give a lot of weight to Sean's opinion.

I cannot say more than that iamges appeared on the LCD screen! They look good and can be zoomed in to reveal good detail. However, beyond meaning that, yes, the camera is working, I can't say more on the image. Leica representative for California were under instructions to not let this camera out of hteir site or allow files to be taken home, as the firmware was one of the first prototypes. I don't understand why they can't simply upgrade to new firmware if that's the case!

My impression is that Leica has made a major commitment to jump to the top of the pack. They might do it! I will be writing much more on the use of the Leica Rangefinder camera for film and the ergonomics for someone divorced from Rangefinders for so long.

I'll be resting the M8 when it is available with completed firmware.

Asher

Mike Spinak

October 15th, 2006, 09:52 PM

From what I have been told by someone using this camera, the images are very sharp on a per-pixel level, and at least on par with... perhaps better than... other cameras of similar resolution. The noise was described to me as a little worse than the Nikon D2X's noise.

Mike

www.mikespinak.com

Zalman Stern

October 15th, 2006, 10:47 PM

Jack is correct in that it is the framing that gets tricky more so than the focusing. The rangefinder has a focusing patch which is perhaps the same width as the center circle in a Canon 1D-series focusing screen and about 2/3rds the height of said circle. Alternatively, perhaps 4 to five times the width and twice the height of the illuminated focus point confirmation rectangle. (Note that these "measurements" are guesses taken visually and are relative to the field of view. The rangefinder viewfinder is likely a little bigger than a full frame 100% coverage 35mm SLR viewfinder.)

With regard to framing, the 24mm frame lines are almost the whole viewfinder and the 90mm ones are about three times the width and height of the focusing patch. (Leica says 135mm lenses are very difficult to frame reliably on the M8.)

I am guessing that focusing is a bit trickier with longer lenses in some circumstances as the detail you are trying to capture is further away and thus appears smaller. Depending on the scene, this may or may not matter. E.g. I find focusing on a tree full of leaves, with the tree mostly filling the viewfinder, a bit tricky. The fractal nature of leaves and branches makes many places in the tree appear similar and it is thus easy to get confused about what one is seeing in the rangefinder. I find myself having to pick a unique branch, preferably without much foliage to use for focusing. No big deal, but it is something one has to learn.

The rangefinder works incredibly well for low-light focusing. In a dark room lit only by monitor light (metered at 1/4s to 1/8s, f/1.4@ISO1600) I can reliably focus on poster edges, dim reflections in windows, and the boundary between the window and the wall. The 1DsMkII with 35mm f/1.4, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.2, and 135mm f/2, centerpoint selected, will not lock focus on these features or any other I can find. (With the 35mm it seems to focus in the right place, but will not lock.)

One more test of rangefinder focusing is to stand about five feet from a door way. The idea is to set it up so when standing parallel to the door centered on one edge of the frame, the other edge is more or less on the vertical third line. Focus the range finder on the centered edge and then turn so the other edge is centered. This is a test for focus and recompose accuracy. In my recent experience, the rangefinder will show the other edge slightly out of focus after turning. (Though one can probably use the very edge of the rangefinder patch to help matters.)

-Z-

scott kirkpatrick

October 23rd, 2006, 02:12 AM

Out to reviewers, that is, but there are a lot of them. Sean Reid has posted his review on his (subscription, but it is worth it) site, www.reidreviews.com with pictures and an enthusiastic description of the camera's "feel." More detailed examination of specific lenses on the M8 in coming weeks. And the leica-camera-users forums have some posted images with the latest firmware. LL review is scheduled later this week.

It looks very nice. I hope to get one in December.

scott

scott kirkpatrick

October 23rd, 2006, 02:32 AM

With regard to framing, the 24mm frame lines are almost the whole viewfinder and the 90mm ones are about three times the width and height of the focusing patch. (Leica says 135mm lenses are very difficult to frame reliably on the M8.)

For a glasses-wearer like me, the 24mm lines are going to be a stretch. I expect that a 28mm (turns into 37mm-eff) will work really well, a 35mm (47mm-eff) will be a comfortable normal lens, and the 50mm (67mm-eff) becomes the "portrait" or head-and-shoulders lens. Beyond that, for me at least, the SLR presentation of longer lenses in which you can see the background go out of focus is more natural than rangefinder viewing.

One more test of rangefinder focusing is to stand about five feet from a door way. The idea is to set it up so when standing parallel to the door centered on one edge of the frame, the other edge is more or less on the vertical third line. Focus the range finder on the centered edge and then turn so the other edge is centered. This is a test for focus and recompose accuracy. In my recent experience, the rangefinder will show the other edge slightly out of focus after turning. (Though one can probably use the very edge of the rangefinder patch to help matters.)

I'll try that.

scott

Asher Kelman

October 23rd, 2006, 02:43 AM

Sean Reid's review, part 2 is online. This should give the final report on images!

I've got a login problem so I can't see it yet! I'll try again later!

Asher

Will_Perlis

October 27th, 2006, 08:59 PM

I played with one for a couple of minutes at Samys this afternoon. It feels like an M6 on steroids, I think it's a little louder but not much, but I have lots of high freq. hearing loss so don't take my word for it.

I've got one dng from it, taken with whatever lens was on the camera (24mm or 28mm ?), hand-held at 1/60 and according to the EXIF, at 320 ISO. The f-stop didn't get tranferred. Anyone want the file? Email me at wperlis at gmail dot com It's around 10Mb.

I could be seduced by it, I think. I'll be waiting for an accessory grip tho'. I've always had trouble holding soap.

Asher Kelman

October 27th, 2006, 11:47 PM

So they're letting you keep the images! They didn't allow that 2 weeks ago. Was there a big line to see the camera? Why dont you post some 100% cuts from the file and the image itself say at 1200 pixels max. Do you have any opinion on hte file?

Asher

Will_Perlis

October 28th, 2006, 12:11 AM

Asher,

Walter was behind the counter, and there was just one other person there besides me. He just shrugged when I asked if I could put my own card in. He took the card and did it for me, then took it out when I was finished. I didn't play with it for long, my eyes were dead tired and I was having trouble focussing. That problem is definitely mine at the end of Friday, not the camera's.

I'll see if I can figure out how to get some samples up where you can see them. I figured most people interested in the M8 would want an actual file to play with. It opens with no problem in Lightroom and ACR.

I like the file. The colors I'm seeing are a bit garish because of those colored lights over the counters in the Fairfax store and probably my incompetence in tweaking. There's great detail I think, but I'll have to go back and shoot with the 1D2 and the most equivalent lens to really compare.

Asher Kelman

October 28th, 2006, 12:29 AM

Thanks Will!

I was impressed by the M8 until I used the Leica R9 with the DMR.

Then I shot for an hour with the Leica M7 film camera to get a feel for the rangefinder focus again. That camera is so quiet!

I forgot until this moment that I need to develop the film! What a quaint but important thing to do! I put the roll aside, then it totally slipped my mind as all of the CF cards and SD cards were transferred safely!

I felt that usual sense of calm, reassurance and satisfaction that nothing had been overwritten and all the files were safe!!

If my film pictures are in focus, then I know I'm still competent to handle the M8!

Asher

scott kirkpatrick

October 28th, 2006, 12:43 AM

Thanks Will!
Then I shot for an hour with the Leica M7 film camera to get a feel for the rangefinder focus again. That camera is so quiet!

I forgot until this moment that I need to develop the film! What a quaint but important thing to do!
Asher

Don't forget that you'll have to scan the film! Can't look at an image without the bits.

I'm in the same boat, waking up an M2 from its long sleep. Now I have some rolls of C41-developable test shots that will go to the local store for development and medium res scan, coming back to me sorta like a PhotoCD. I hope I can make sense of my notes when I get the bits back. One problem that the M8 has is that the EXIF can't tell you what aperture was used.

scott

Will_Perlis

October 28th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Let's see if these at least give a small hint of what the M8 is like. Remember, this was done by a guy with low blood glucose shakes and bleary eyes at the end of a long week, I didn't pay much attention to metering or focus other than attempting to focus on the neon sign at the end of the store. That was somewhat difficult because it has multiple images in real life.

http://picasaweb.google.com/hwillpix/M8test

scott kirkpatrick

October 28th, 2006, 03:17 PM

The full store one came out sharp and the colors are pleasing. Care to share the .dng files?

scott

scott kirkpatrick

October 28th, 2006, 03:56 PM

Will, thanks for the .dng. Looking at your picture a little bigger than Picasa will let me, I realize this is a good example of the trick that was presented in LL a few days ago -- focus on infinity. The cameras in the very last case in the store are sharp and clear, and everything closer is seen well enough to be extremely convincing. You have to blow them up to realize that they are not actually in focus. I'm looking at colors to see if the currently available tools give oversaturated color (and can that be easily fixed) and you certainly have some cool colors in the shot.

scott

Will_Perlis

October 28th, 2006, 03:56 PM

Good, it made it through. I finally remembered my PacBell password, anyone else who wants it can get it from here:

http://home.pacbell.net/perlisw/M8.DNG

Daniel Harrison

October 30th, 2006, 05:01 AM

Thanks for the file looks very interesting. A few things i noticed
1. is that Moire on the back of the guy in the lines shirt?
2. The noise looks very high for ISO 320, and there seems to be alot of noise reduction going on, for instance the pants have that smeared black with gey dots look. If i drag the image around in Adobe Raw it is very noisy and then settles down again to the processed look, not sure what is going on.

Personally I think it looks very dissapointing. It may be good in good light as it is probably quite sharp, but Moire in that photo is a bit extreme, and the noise worries me. I have no doubt the body will be great.

Anyway we shall soon know.

Will_Perlis

October 30th, 2006, 07:20 AM

That sure looks likes a Moire pattern to me. I'm not sure about the noise, I had to go well over 100% to see it. I'd have to see a controlled comparison with something like a 1D or 1Ds to make a call.

The changes you see during dragging is due to, I think, an Adobe artifact as it reprocesses the section being looked at. It certainly can't be anything Leica is doing.

If the M8 is seriously generating Moire patterns on fabrics there are going to some disappointed wedding shooters keeping their credit cards in their wallets.

Andrew Stannard

October 30th, 2006, 10:35 AM

Hi,

Guess quite a few of you may already have found it, but there is a good review of the M8 now up on the Luminous Landscape. It's very positive, although as MR points out he has always been a fan of Leica.

Cheers,

scott kirkpatrick

October 30th, 2006, 10:55 AM

I could see it at 200% enlargement of the jpeg that I made in C1 and it was barely visible when I developed the file in C1, viewing it in the preview at 200%. There are postprocessing tricks for handling this, if it can't be ignored, but they take layers and brushes... things i prefer not to have to do.

scott

Asher Kelman

October 30th, 2006, 11:09 AM

What moire plugins do people have? Also how does the M8 noise clean up with different methods?

Asher

scott kirkpatrick

October 30th, 2006, 01:06 PM

Is a standard. In the Reid review (installment #2) he shows how to use it on a hat that he found some Moire in. He saved the un-Moired hat on a layer and brushed that solution onto just the regions in which the problem occurred, leaving the rest of the image at full resolution.

scott

Daniel Harrison

October 30th, 2006, 02:19 PM

So That is Moire, thanks for the confirmation. I was looking on my laptop screen and it accentuates noise greatly, so it probably isn't as bad as it seems, but I still think there is something going on with the noise and noise reduction. I'll have to have another look later on my PC
Thanks!

Will_Perlis

October 30th, 2006, 02:45 PM

Now that you've mentioned it, I think I see more Moire in the rug in the foreground.

Take a look at the guy with the Moire in his shirt, follow his leg down and towards the camera. The pattern seems to get wider to the right as it gets closer to the shelves with the bags and little tripod on top.

I'll have to look more when I'm at a good screen.

scott kirkpatrick

October 30th, 2006, 05:03 PM

Isuspect that a large fraction of us peepers are using LCD monitors. And they do exaggerate pattern noise, Moire, that sort of thing. Can someone with a CRT (remember those?) take a look at our examples? Also, state your viewing conditions (in my case, Thinkpad T43p, 1600x1200 pixels, calibrated, but subject to strong daylight when the sun is up).

Producing a jpeg at full resolution and then cranking it up to 200% or 400% introduces artifacts due to the jpeg encoding which is being undone. A better method to look closely into an image is to stay in the raw file development package and examine the developed preview when it is zoomed up, or to output an uprezzed jpeg and study that at its new 100%.

scott

Ray West

October 30th, 2006, 06:11 PM

I've had a look at the dng file, at 100% and 200%, the shirt looks sort of ok, bearing in mind it may be glare, shadow, sweat, it just looks odd. I think the carpet is due to lighting variations and wear, where folk walk. It is not a fair test, but the colours look ok, but much seems soft/blurred, as someone else mentioned, and the plain colours look a bit noisy. Not a fair test, but interesting.

Best wishes,

Ray

PS, by its nature, you will either get some moire, or soft images, at some stage or another in a digital process, since you have regular spaced pixels, not quite matching regular spaced real world lines, sometimes.

Will_Perlis

October 30th, 2006, 07:00 PM

Scott, I've now looked at it on two Viewsonics, one a calibrated but old 19 inch CRT at 1280 x 1024 and the other a calibrated VP2030b LCD at 1600 x 1200, and I'm doing my pixel peeping in LR developer or ACR. I can see those artifacts on both.

Ray, the pattern on the back of the shirt is either moire or I'll donate an important organ or two to the hospital of your choice. I was right near him a few seconds later and he didn't have any strange color patches in his back.

Re the rug, I'm still seeing a diagonal straight line pattern going towards the shelves at the very bottom of the DNG. I won't be so definite about this one but as I remember it, the carpeting at Samys is so worn there are no lines evident even if they were there earlier in its life. It's faint enough so I'd have missed it if I hadn't gone looking for it.

In any event it's not an a priori big deal to me. I'll be curious to see the moire prevalence when the M8 and its files are more common.

Will_Perlis

October 30th, 2006, 09:49 PM

I guess I wasn't shaking as much as I thought. I found an earlier shot I thought I had deleted. It's at 1/8. Overexposed, but still... Also, the Moire pattern in the carpet isn't visible here. It's either been washed out or I was in a slightly different position.

http://home.att.net/~hwill/L1010373.DNG

scott kirkpatrick

November 3rd, 2006, 01:10 AM

With European deliveries over the past few days there are now at least a dozen folks comparing their color shifts in the red using various development packages (and shortly their Moire patterns) on the Leica website,
www.leica-camera-users.com . Sean Reid checks in there fairly regularly (he was booted from the FM forums, but seems mellow about it) and is preparing to digest and expound on Leica's answer to the question of why they selected an 8bit dng representation for the M8's files.

Other news -- it seems that early customer orders for Leica M8s are running about 5:1 in favor of the black model, but the factory made equal quantities of silver and black M8s. I guess the silver model shows up better in crowds and spreads the word, so some number of desperate wannabe pro-M8 shooters will soon be using the shiny version in order to avoid another month's delay in getting their hands on what appears to be a very nice camera.

Asher -- I know it would be great if everybody came here, but really there is a lot of noise in the early M8 threads, and they are better contained where they fit best.

scott

Asher Kelman

November 3rd, 2006, 01:23 AM

Well Scott, we'll be soon M8 competent. Hopefully we'll benefitt from FM hardline stand on gifted posters! I think we'll have no problem keeping the signal to noise ratio in line with OPF needs!

So what are they saying justifies 8 BIT DNG?

Do we have to worry about the red color and moire? I'm really interested in this camera. It feels beautiful in black. It's not so quiet as the M7 but it's wonderful to hold and simple to use, very simple.

The big thing for me is the simplicity of the focus system and the quality of wide angle lenses.

Asher

scott kirkpatrick

November 3rd, 2006, 06:33 AM

I hope to get one from the December allocation at Popflash, and even then it depends on arranging a pickup by a traveller to the US, so for now I am just enjoying this show from the sidelines. However, I did pick up a Voightlaender Nokton 50/1.5 lens which looks incredibly new and modern sitting on my peeling-vulcanite M2, as a low cost introduction to the world of lenses with awesome reputations, so I have some bragging rights.

Reading between the lines of the forum posts and some private emails, I predict:

Leica chose 8 bit companding because it permits really fast review and shooting, and don't have to be ashamed of anything -- except for some embarassing marketing overstatements ("16 bit resolution") that occur throughout their literature. They are preparing a statement, and taking their time to get it right.

Firmware upgrade #1 will probably bring some of the most useful digital controls -- exposure offset, ISO and WB closer to the top of the stack -- something like one-button access to those menus, with specific buttons dedicated, which is what Sean Reid has been arguing for.

Firmware upgrade #2 will let us choose whether to get the 8bit or the original 16bit raw files. The 16 bit option is simply a step back to the firmware which was developed for the DMR reflex version that has been on the market for a year now.

Color profiles will oscillate for the next few months until there are several stable versions available and each M8 owner who cares can loudly protest that only their version is usable, the rest are crap. After the most obvious issues -- overall saturation and how do you like your strong reds -- are sorted out, there will be a rear-guard action that protests the sunsets are unacceptable...

The M9, which will hit the market in only 5 more years, will have weather seals.

None of the aforementioned unhappy M8 owners will even consider giving up their M8's unless you pry their cold, dead fingers off... It is obviously addictive.

scott

Ben Lifson

November 3rd, 2006, 07:20 AM

Mark Schafer

November 3rd, 2006, 01:32 PM

Yes, i loved it. Just took some time to get to know the M8 at the PhotoExpo in NY:

It really feels solid and professional like a M6/7, with a built in winder and free choice of film speeds starting at 160 ISO with a Kodak chip (why no 100ASA).
The command structure to access all the goodies under the hood are fairly intuitive (but differ obviously to the Canon or Nikon logic).

The exposure times are in half values, which i love, sync time at 1/250sec (finally) and still has a bottom cover, which looks very familiar, that comes off (for the SD cards, up to 4GB, and the battery).

Seems to me like a home run, the only thing i want to see is the equivalent to the 1.4/35 Asph, which i guess would be a 28mm.

I haven't seen the files on a computer screen yet, but they had a print about 8"x12" which looked great (but so will my Canon Elph in this size).

I do find the pricing very competitive as well considering the price of a new M7.

This will be the new standard in rangefinder cameras for the years to come and for good reason (now only the files need to hold up).

Asher Kelman

November 3rd, 2006, 02:40 PM

I haven't even seen one yet (or, really, a picture of one) much less held and used one so I can't say anything except that the RD-1 is still better for me than a digital SLR and that I'm having good results also with the Lumix LX1 with a 75mm accessory optical finder mounted on top (epoxy glue holding the accessory shoe to the camera) and, with fingernail polish, the right barrel extension marked on the barrel itself. So I figure when I come up w/ the money for the M8 the camera is going to be just fine.

By the way, for ten days in the Philippines, that same 75mm finder mounted on top of my Canon 10D, the review turned off, and with hyperfocal settings used as best I could, I could use the 10D like a Leica, as we did in the old days, w/ the lens pre-set to the depth of field range within which we wanted to shoot. It was rather good, using the 10D as though it were a Leica. I had some problems w/ framing at first given the discrepancy between the height of the lens and the height of the finder but these were easy enough to dispel... Adjustments like that come quickly.

I hope you will feed us as many pictures as you can on both the RD-1, the Lumix LX1 and the Canon 10D used as a rangefinder.

We really need to beef up the experienced rangefinder end of OPF. I unfortunately sold off all my rangefinders long ago. I have re-entered the world by shooting with film with the M7 borrowed from Leica for an hour!

So travel, street or any other work would be valued and a joy for us!

What is so special about the LX-1 when you have the RD-1?

I'm asking since my son, Emile, posted to get advice on the finest pocketable digicam available.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1372

Anyway be, I wish you were in L.A. so I could see your work or even stral the RD-1 for a day!

Asher

Asher Kelman

November 7th, 2006, 01:31 AM

Well, the reviews of he M8 sing its praises. I recommend subscribing to Sean Reids excellent review site:

www.reidreviews.com/

He's up to part 3.

From it, I get the sense that the M8 is more like a MF camera in the way it renders images and this seems to fit in with Uwe Steinmueller describing a more 3D appearance.

From the images I have seen in various reviews, this camera has likely no competitor in 35mm cameras when shooting below 400 ISO. Noise seems to be a problem at 400 and above but until ISO 800 is corrected readily.

It is still early times, but I see resurgence of rangefinder interest.

Asher

Roger Lambert

November 8th, 2006, 09:55 AM

The forums are talking now about problems with the m8. Evidently, the camera is picking up too much IR information, which is causing strange and difficult-to-correct color shifts.

Leica is recommending using IR filters on the lens for now, but has promised a more effective solution down the road - perhaps a retrofit with an IR filter in front of the sensor.

Rainer Viertlböck

November 9th, 2006, 02:52 AM

sounds as a catastrophe for leica, and i hope not also for their new acquisitation.....
i cannot see any solution for the ir sensitivity, except the one which leica suggest, to use a hard cutting ir filter.
the ir sensitivity is THE problem, although the banding isnt nice also,- but in my eyes by far not at the point where the color casts are.
i cannot see any fw solution here , on cannot map out colors which are not in any linear logic,- so also color profiling can not work here. bad. bad. bad.
this is the worthest camera flaw on a digital camera and it might even exceeds the problems the kodak 14n ff cameras showed, before they implemented a sensor upgrade in form of the kodak slr. this will be the solution for leica also, (- no other one,-! ) and this needs time cause the sensor has to be develloped and manufactored at first by kodak.
i am really sorry for leica, because this will be a disaster for them. but it is obvious that the m8 is not possible to be used under professional conditions, and even amateur users will struggle, if they have good eyes.
i owned a lot of leica cameras and i still have my old loved m4p .... although i sold them when they announced the cropped sensor for the DMR,- and bought the fullframe kodak at this time.

Asher Kelman

November 9th, 2006, 10:31 AM

I have another point of view. I tried the camera. It's wonderful.

The problems are readily solved, for landscape and product shots there's no issue at all. Here the camera outshines any other 35mm digital camera from the files I have seen.

The very cause of the issue, a 0.5mm IR cut off filter, not a 1mm cut of filter, allows the lack of color fringing of the M8 and the high resolution of the superior wide angle Leica lenses.

With that, there's a need for an IR cut off filter at the front of a lens.

Only problem is the Leica aficionados were so ecstatic about their dreams come true, a real Leica Rangefinder, built in the standards of all the venerable Leica's before them, were crushed on discovering the IR issue themselves. Here, the Leica PR and marketing people made a huge blunder.

Leica passions for the ultimate in quality. To have this come so unexpectedly shattered some peoples Nirvana dream state.

However, if one were shooting landscapes or product shots or B&W, one would have strutted around knowing they had a MF digital camera with the finest Leica WA lens for some $8,000!

For weddings, the IR cut off filter would be needed because a lot of the black suits and black formal dresses of the guests contain synthetic fibers, which unfortunately reflect IR light. I don't think wool or cotton are such problems.

Anyway, Leica now controls the company that makes the digital innards of the camera. The purple color shift of black clothes is correctible with an IR cut-off filter. The latter is clear optical glass, has a transmission factor of 100% for visible light and stops the IR light by absorbing it a layer with no other obvious consequence.

In any case Leica Solms is burning the midnight oil to solve this issue and the guys probably are all red-faced and red-eyed!

Still, for me at least, I see this as a minor bump in the road, which will be absorbed into Leica legend in a short time.

Such is the issue when market pressures, from a consumer base and a company force products out too fast.

O.K., the gorgeous debutante can't drive a car or pour a martini, but she is educated, refined and a wonderful friend to people who can appreciate her!

I do!

Asher

Rainer Viertlböck

November 9th, 2006, 03:30 PM

asher, i cannot agree herein at all, having collected and worked around with a lot of different sensor flaws in 35mm and in mf backs.
many M8 images i saw are not acceptable for me, and i do not see a fix here also which is acceptable for me. they say now that the reason why they used this 0.5mm glass is for the use of symmetric wideangle lenses. same problem would have than any kodak or dalsa using mf system, cause they work together with the 24mm digitars and 28mm sinarons. they are comparable with 16 and 21mm in 35mm systems. no IR transmission there, and also no CA at the edges with both lenses.
there would existed ways with multicoating to make the ir layer more absorptive.

but here happens, what happens too often with hi-tech companies, which are not longer leaded by camera enthusiasts ( as Barnack was...) . the head of all is the management which often not has idea and also not interest in their products, it goes to 100% about money decisions.
the developement and also the responsability is divided in different companies ( jenoptik made the digital part.... ) and the few photographers ( if any- to save money!!!! ) which had the camera for testing, are not taking serious enough to bring their voice in the management floor. their critic often also hurt some responsable person which should solve the problem,- he will do many things to avoid that this voices will be heard.
and if they are heard,- immediately the responsable company or the part inside promise that they will solve the problem soon.... the marketing says we need the camera NOW, so the decision is clear, and cannot be changed in short times for mot loosing the face and image.
you will see..... leica will finally do the same than kodak with its 14n camera- which was for many uses and lenses also a disaster... they will bring as soon as they can a updated version with a stronger coated IR filter.... and for some money they will "upgrade" the delivered v.1 cameras, because they simply have not the money to admit that they did something very wrong in the design. its a pity.... but it is in this way i.m.o.
i see black for leica. without red dot.

Rainer Viertlböck

November 9th, 2006, 03:32 PM

Anyway, Leica now controls the company that makes the digital innards of the camera. Asher

no. sinar has not made the digital part of the m8, it was jenoptik who did,- the former owner of sinar, which also makes the emotion backs.

Asher Kelman

November 9th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Actually I thought it's a small company that is the real plum of the deal, I forget the name!

Asher

Rainer Viertlböck

November 9th, 2006, 04:05 PM

Actually I thought it's a small company that is the real plum of the deal, I forget the name!

Asher

http://www.jenoptic.com/

Asher Kelman

November 10th, 2006, 01:17 AM

I've also been shooting film in my M2 as a way of getting a current view of what the special characteristics of my '60s M-lenses are and how I could use them. I have an M8 and 28/2.8 on order at Popflash. After they shipped out their first 21 units in less than a day, Popflash circulated a list of the next in line. I'm now #39 (higher perhaps. since I'm happy to take a silver unit). If Tony gets another shipment or two shipments totalling 30-40, in November, he'll drop ship mine to Florida, where one of my students will pick it and bring it to me. If not, I will wait a bit longer.

I'm more concerned about the cost and difficulty of purchase in Israel than the inconvenience of getting one early and having to send it in for the likely imager replacement. Of the three issues that have surfaced once they let "oroduction level" units loose in the wild -- 8bit encoding, hot spot bleeding, and IR sensitivity that requires at least an external filter -- I think the IR question will probably trigger a recall, and if the bleeding cannot be controlled by a timing fix in firmware, it will be dealt with by a new build of Kodak chips. I like the images, but Kodak does seem to screw up a lot, don't they? Incidentally, look at the baseball cap on the fireman standing by his big red truck in Sean Reid's M8 Review part 2. It's not black, it's purple. Sean's pretty non-technical, but once he understood that you can have two objects, both black to us humans, but one of them bright purple in daylight to the M8, he realized that no rgb profile can fix this and led the rush of PJ wedding photographers to the photostore counter for their IR block filters. He's taking two M8s to a wedding in NJ this weekend. Did you see the picture of a black tuxedo with bright purple silk lapels on LCU? That's what they have to avoid.

Coincidentally, I teach our students about new product igestation, from concept to introduction, and this is a classic case of what goes wrong and where the real risks are. Leica has two stikes against them -- engineers who for 50 years have defined a field, and are not good at listening to the Canon-wielding digital fraternity, and owners or managers who know how close to insolvency the company must be. Right now they are gambling that they can fix problems in the field, as they upgrade their understanding of a new set of customers and start another 50-year revenue stream. While meeting a payroll. And they are now learning that excellence on 99 points plus a screwup on 1 (in this case, maybe 2) can mean failure.

There's evidence that the IR problem is not a surprise, but was considered an issue only for fashion shooters, who it was presumed, would go out and buy IR block filters. But fashion shooters shoot into the lights, bringing out the bleed problem and the issue that cover filters offset the low flare characteristics for which one pays top dollar in buying Leica lenses. Fashion shooters at shows need long lenses, but that's another story. Anyway, what a pyramid of wishful thinking someone must have built. If Leica makes it to the middle of next year, they can fix up this mess, and I don't feel like waiting that long to use the M8.

Scott

I'm merely posting this for Scott :)

Will_Perlis

November 10th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.

Nill Toulme

November 10th, 2006, 11:04 AM

If you can get past the lack of RAW capability, it's starting to sound like the new Canon G7 at least has to be given some serious consideration in this category.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

scott kirkpatrick

November 10th, 2006, 11:56 AM

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.
I've gotten them, kept one (with the nice neon colors). Sorry, no serious problems so they don't attract attention these days. No problem here if you reclaim the space on your server.

scott

Asher Kelman

November 10th, 2006, 12:41 PM

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.

Will, I like your M8 files! It shows the journey we have to go on in buying anything today. Unfortunately we dont have enough of this. Everyone should do this. Then we'd all learn.

If we can, I'd like to keep them active!

Asher

Asher Kelman

November 10th, 2006, 12:58 PM

For discussion on trying or features of the M8, post in this thread here. Yes, this actual thread! :)

Discussion of Leica'a response to problems with the M8, post here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1430

Asher

John Maio

November 11th, 2006, 01:10 AM

... Picked it up at my local dealer on Monday the 6th (it was preordered in September) and sadly, decided to return it for a refund on Thursday the 9th.

While I could live with some of the issues, the IR sensitivity was the deal killer. I simply could not justify buying $200.00 hot mirror filters for my M lenses just to use the camera with confidence. The images it made were stunning and if and when Leica fixes the issues, I will certainly order another.

WillGood

November 11th, 2006, 07:14 AM

The M8 will produce beautiful B&W images.
Professionals who need color images for work will be staying away from this version in droves.
There is a lot of wishful thinking by those emotionally & financially invested in Leica that all will be made whole.......... Those who can live with half-measure fixes will stick with it.

If you are a amateur photographer and can afford to discard bad color images, this camera will work for you.

Sorry, but we will be watching this play out for a long time, the absurd IR lens filter fix(!) is not a good sign.

Like Ranier, I went thru this already with the $5k kodak 14n & SLR*s. Very sharp cameras with no AA filter.
The 14n had green blobs, CA fringing, chroma noise, magenta/green color shift.
It did not have the "purple/black" IR issue nor the banding of the M8.

Sorry, these issues will not be made whole by software updates.

The bad buzz on the 14n pretty much killed kodak 's professional camera division, even though the follow up version: SLRc & n produced amazing images: Im still using 2 of them.
Cheers,

Asher Kelman

November 11th, 2006, 09:29 AM

John, Will and Rainer,

We all agree that the Leica M9 gives great images. We know that IR can spoil this.

Certainly it's sad that giants get things so wrong in delivery of great things. We had high hopes, Canon and Nikon mounts would standardize options for photographers; fine, a great concept! However, images on the Kodak site were so underwhelming. How could this leader in photography not use the best photographers? Then the infamous CCD issues delivered the 14Ns coup de grace! You all have unarguable reactions based on such past disappointments and experience. Still, perhaps, is the M8 situation unique?

The M8 IR issue bloomed merely ten days ago. Leicaphiles are loyal. Still, many photographers are shocked and angry. Leica recognizes that. However, Leica Solms has deeply committed itself to its M8 users. I believe them!

Is it right for a pro today?

Just imagine the camera should have been released a little later. The loyal base of Leica uses should cover the M8 for now. Right now, Guy Mancuso and others have already demonstrated the IR blocking solution, others the profile remedy. It will be refined and tested in professional situations. For example, Sean Reid is using two M8 Leicas this weekend for a wedding. Let's wait. Leica's duty is to fix things.

Each professional photographer will then have to make a practical decision based on Leica's performance.

Right now, all over the world, the M8 is still a hot camera!

Asher

WillGood

November 11th, 2006, 10:16 AM

Hi Asher
hmmmm.... My Leica, Love it or Leave it ? : )

While I respect your passion & generous spirit,
you should read this: http://luminous-landscape.com/new/index.shtml

Leica asked Riechman to delete the sensor issues in his review. : (

Best,
William

John Maio

November 11th, 2006, 06:16 PM

John, Will and Rainer,

The M8 IR issue bloomed merely ten days ago. Leicaphiles are loyal. Still, many photographers are shocked and angry. Leica recognizes that. However, Leica Solms has deeply committed itself to its M8 users. I believe them!

Asher

Asher,

I'm not shocked and angry at all. Leica has its M8 camera back and I have my money back.

Today, I took my trusty M7 along to do a few documentary shots at a Veteran's day event. As there is only one good E6 developer left in town, I'll just have to wait until Monday evening to perhaps scan and post one or two images.

If and when they fix the issues, and the fixes are confirmed, I'll order another.

Asher Kelman

November 11th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Will,

I posted a complete reply on LL but I'll copy it back here. For now, let me put it this way. The Leica M8 Digital Rangefinder takes superb pictures. It has faults which are correctable with a Phase 1C1 curve or an IR cut off filter right now, today, to be pretty good. Leica will do a proper fix for its M8 customers who they value.

Michael could have acted like New York Theater Critics, who, from one night's performance, decide to kill a show on its opening night!

When the bad review is publsihed, a million dollars and years of sweat and creativity are lost and cannot be recovered!

The decision, given the stakes, to grant Leica the time to address the IR problem was no doubt difficult, but I believe, done with good intent and therefore ethical.

I look at Leca and MR in the light of the whole. Leica makes microscopes, surgical scopes that save lives and and R9 system which is breathtaking. The M7 is a marvelous film rangefinder camera in the great tradition of Leica. MR, put his reputation on the line, because the M8 was on the line.

What he did was correct, but in a storm, people get stranded, marooned, forgotten on an island, and that happened here.

Let's not make villains out of anyone. It's just a camera not an operation!

Ashehr

Rainer Viertlböck

November 12th, 2006, 03:02 AM

i was working in my film days with a leica R8 and a variety of r lenses, aside my leica m4p and my m7, also with 5 lenses ( sold all except the m4p with a 35+90mm ). i liked the cameras and used them mainly for detail shots aside 4x5", which was my main shooting gear,- and which has put also in perspective all the stuff about the leica glow, the leica sharpness, the coma-freeness and all that from leica-people usually beloved things. ofcourse i liked the leicas and the image quality,- but i never could avoid in thinking that with canon or nikon i would not have had similar good results,- ofcourse seaching the best lenses for that cameras also ( zeiss,- nikon mf, olympus and so on...). it amused me sometimes to read in the photo.net the leicanians and how they were speaking about their incredible leica glowing shots.- showing often totally aburring shots, taken more or less casually on the street ( as now the canonians like to do with cats ). yes.... thats the same. canon froums and how people will kill you if you start to demsonstrate that other 35mm cameras can do things in same or better quality than their 1ds2 ( so it can do the kodak slr in its iso6 mode- and i had both and no reason for any brand advantages ). or if you write your 5d is same sharp ( or better ) than their queen, the 1ds2 ( sold mine , holded the 5d ).
i am sorry that i take this things as what they are. things. yes i like good craftmanships, and so i liked that leicas, so i liked my technikardan. but i personally had problems to find any specific "glow",- how i have setup my drumscanner was by far more glowing or not glowing as if i took a nikon, canon or leica lense, sorry for beeing that ignorant ( ofcourse a good one, but leica had lemons also as the 19/2,8 or the 28-70 zoom or the leica/schneider 28PC ).
and so the M8 is not a amazing and excellent camera as i havent seen before from other cameras similar good files..... the R9 is also good, so is the canon 5d the canon 1ds2( sharpen) the newer nikons.... and especially a camera which hates everybody , the kodak slr/ n or c. the kodak has the most things common than the leicas cause it didnt used also an AA filter. already it showed more artefacts but they have been very good controllable in sw,- if you knew how to do, and that camera was made 2 years ago.
now people post images from the M8 and they are amazed how good they are, if the conditions dont show purple blacks. sorry...... but.... what a bullshit. no,- they are not good as far i have seen.
its simply totally off colorwise for the ir inluence over the whole spectrum. yes they are sharp as every camera without AAfilter and with sharp lenses, but not more. the R9 or the kodaks are as sharp as the M9. and the sinar-leaf-phase-imacon mf backs also,- just with 3 or 4 times bigger files, but with same sharpness and way better colors.
and...... 8bit dngs is a nightmare if you want to raise up fine color gradations, as you often have them in the sky or in skintones. its really very bad. 12bit is ok, not 8. another hystercic point, here about mf backs. everybody thinks how important is that they have 16bit and the canons are therefore worther cause they have just 12bit DA processing. a first all backs read out 14bit, not 16, at second 12bit is a good number for postprocessing headroom, esp. if you interpolate up to 16bit in the conversion. but not 8 bit. its bad, unprofessional and not glowing. with or without ir filters.
its a simple compression which is not lossless. similar or same way of compression is offered in the eMotion backs as option. use half of the disc space but also you loose half of the information in the highlight zones, where also are often fine sky colors. never use that mode in my eMotion, except if i run out of memory card space, which not often happend. amazing that nearly noone cares this 8bit thing, more becuase these are the same people who cannot stop to speak about that the DMR is so much better than the canon cause it has a 16bit d-a converter and goes on with 16bit files. this is by far less improtant to go from 16 ( or upinterpolated 14...) to upinterpolated 12 bit than from 12 bit to 8bit. 12 still is in 99,9% of the case enough. 8bit will often end up with banding, if you make deeper image editings.

NOTHING especial and really no reason to tell that there is some especial thing in these files,. its not. they are off and have several heavy flaws if you look the closed.
i dont like hysteric brand lovers as i dont like any hysteric ideologic believes. cameras are not goods, but they are put somehow in these psoition. as football clubs. or cars- or politics.
sorry me , dont want to blame anybody but wanted to express . just shake my head how people can say these files are amazing, just a little bit off.
no, they are not amazing. they are off. leica or not. they have wrong colors at the moment over the wole spectrum. horrible skin tones. and 8bit dng files.
if not , maybee i would go and buy one,- just for fun.

WillGood

November 12th, 2006, 07:37 AM

Hi Asher
answering your email in the spirit of the Open Photography Leica Club...errr...forum : )
Will,

I posted a complete reply on LL but I'll copy it back here. For now, let me put it this way. The Leica M8 Digital Rangefinder takes superb pictures.

The ones that don't have the IR magenta, banding, green blobs and purple fringing...

It has faults which are correctable with a Phase 1C1 curve or an IR cut off filter right now, today, to be pretty good. Leica will do a proper fix for its M8 customers who they value.
LOL ..... Leica is so "proper in looking after its customers" that they had reviewers suppress the flaws they found in thre M8?.......that they sent a product they knew was flawed to market?...............looks like they are still selling the flawed camera ? ...I dont buy that.

I have a different point of view about to what degree these image artifacts can be made "whole", - Lets just see how this thing plays out in the next few months ; )

BTW : I have a contax, fuiji, leica, and polaroid rangefinders.
Yes I am "camera crazy"! (thank you Arthur Elgort) -But I dont favor any brand and have learned each system has pros & cons.

Michael could have acted like New York Theater Critics, who, from one night's performance, decide to kill a show on its opening night!

hmm...guess you invested in a Broadway play!

When the bad review is publsihed, a million dollars and years of sweat and creativity are lost and cannot be recovered!

....you invested quite a bit!

The decision, given the stakes, to grant Leica the time to address the IR problem was no doubt difficult, but I believe, done with good intent and therefore ethical.

I look at Leca and MR in the light of the whole. Leica makes microscopes, surgical scopes that save lives and and R9 system which is breathtaking. The M7 is a marvelous film rangefinder camera in the great tradition of Leica. MR, put his reputation on the line, because the M8 was on the line
What he did was correct, but in a storm, people get stranded, marooned, forgotten on an island, and that happened here.

Let's not make villains out of anyone. It's just a camera not an operation!

Are you directing that at me, or just venting?I never said that.

Ashehr
Obviously, you are camera crazy as well!
Best,

Asher Kelman

November 12th, 2006, 06:43 PM

Rainer,

Without you what would I know about Munich, a wonderful German family, some of the best prints I've seen ever, the dichotomy of precise architectural images and then a slow shutter portrait style that knocked my socks off?

Arguing with Dierk is no small feat, specifically in his semantic imperatives. Taking on Sean is like challenging the Celts in an invasion of Britain itself. However, responding to your remarks here, are the hardest of all!

I start handicapped. I admire the reviewers. I'm grateful to them. I am, after all, in awe of well engineered things. Leica has symbolized that. My recent tests of the R9 and the DMR reinforced my fascination with Leica and Leica optics.

So there are handicaps to being even and dispassionate. Unfortunately, one of the very factors that ensured our development, tribalism, extends to our political process no less than sports. Worse it is seen in the PC-Mac and the Nikon-Canon sparring we see on forums and ot extending to what Leica makes is, in itself, unsurprising. So stepping into the Leica debate is bound to be contentious. I value your experience on Leica and as you know treasure every word you write on cameras.

Yes, I'm an advocate for Leica as for the RD-1 and Cosina cameras. These all represent the modern expression of a part of close photography that, for some time was bypassed. Most photographers have never even held a rangefinder! Because of the smaller market, it takes more risky investment to bring new models to us. Indeed these arrive like the opening nights at New York Theaters, where waiting critics, can, (and often do) kill a $2,000,000 production in two paragraphs the very next day!

I dined last night with several executives and heard the issue of the reviewers articles argued! I myself was taken back to see my own views strongly questioned.

William,

I see this debate a little differently than most. I admit, I do, at times, frame issues with a touch romantacism and moral imperitive, a dangerous mixture. I allow my faith to see the best in people especially when I identify with some goals. So, unlike the generals, looking down at the battlefield, I can be down in the trenches with my vision obscured, a consequence of being driven to empathize with the people who actually have the most to lose.

Yet, with all this crazines, I do and will strive to be honest, rise above the fray, and not permit my judgement to be flubbed.

I will try to bring to this forum a true picture of what the M8 has to offer.

Asher

WillGood

November 13th, 2006, 02:33 PM

Rainer,

...............snip..................
I start handicapped. I admire the reviewers. I'm grateful to them. I am, after all, in awe of well engineered things. Leica has symbolized that. My recent tests of the R9 and the DMR reinforced my fascination with Leica and Leica optics.

So there are handicaps to being even and dispassionate. Unfortunately, one of the very factors that ensured our development, tribalism, extends to our political process no less than sports. Worse it is seen in the PC-Mac and the Nikon-Canon sparring we see on forums and ot extending to what Leica makes is, in itself, unsurprising. So stepping into the Leica debate is bound to be contentious. I value your experience on Leica and as you know treasure every word you write on cameras.

Yes, I'm an advocate for Leica as for the RD-1 and Cosina cameras. These all represent the modern expression of a part of close photography that, for some time was bypassed. Most photographers have never even held a rangefinder! Because of the smaller market, it takes more risky investment to bring new models to us. Indeed these arrive like the opening nights at New York Theaters, where waiting critics, can, (and often do) kill a $2,000,000 production in two paragraphs the very next day!

I dined last night with several executives and heard the issue of the reviewers articles argued! I myself was taken back to see my own views strongly questioned.

William,

I see this debate a little differently than most. I admit, I do, at times, frame issues with a touch romantacism and moral imperitive, a dangerous mixture. I allow my faith to see the best in people especially when I identify with some goals. So, unlike the generals, looking down at the battlefield, I can be down in the trenches with my vision obscured, a consequence of being driven to empathize with the people who actually have the most to lose.

Yet, with all this crazines, I do and will strive to be honest, rise above the fray, and not permit my judgement to be flubbed.

I will try to bring to this forum a true picture of what the M8 has to offer.

Asher
Hi Asher
Thanks for your thoughts about this.
Sounds like youve been piled on enough about it. ; )
Best

Asher Kelman

November 13th, 2006, 02:49 PM

On the contrary, if I put myself out there I can be challenged. That is the whole point of an open photography forum.

At the end of discussion here, we should be better prepared to make all the decisions needed todeliver a file or photographic print with pride, satisfaction, great reception and hopefully benefit, financial and otherwise.

Let's see how the much awaited M8 might fit into this scheme of things for all kinds of photography. That is what we want to know here!

Asher

Daniel Harrison

November 13th, 2006, 03:39 PM

Have you all caught up with the Infa Red Issue, looks pretty bad to me and the only fix for now is to use IR cut filters on the fron of the lens. here is a link to show the problem http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20822038

Asher Kelman

November 13th, 2006, 04:15 PM

Hi Daniel,

Caught up? No I've been studying it for many hours! It's really an inescapable issue with the design all digital cameras. How it is dealt with depends on many factors. However, it is not something that one can push aside. Leica has admitted the M8 IR issues and is working for a solution.

I'm interested at this time in where the camera shines.

It's real! however, I feel it will be overcome. Whether or not it will fit into the workflow of wedding and reportage photography is yet to be seen.

Some have an instinctual and intellectual aversion to adding any filter in front of the superb Leica optics that they have invested in!

So we'll have to wait for the planned announcements by Leica in the next 2 weeks and then the reactions that follow from Professional and other capable users.

I'm still excited about the M8. However, I need to get more experience with the actual use and the files.

Asher

Daniel Harrison

November 13th, 2006, 04:26 PM

had a feeling you would know :-) LOL

just didn't see it mentioned on these pages. I read somewhere that the official fix would be front element filters and a firmware upgrade. problem is to get the firmware side working you had to have coded lenses. I believe the person who said this worked for leica, and was a well respected member of a leica online community.

Asher Kelman

November 13th, 2006, 04:42 PM

There's no point in worrying about the coded lens need since we don't know whether or not firmware tweaks can deal with haphazard IR reflections from even IR reflective materials.

Leica for sure has the optical engineers needed. Some solutions can be implemented now, as with a front filter, different for each lens.

I see other solutions appearing in new editions of the camera. Some now in further production and some in a subsequent version.

I see, from the scientific standpoint the following options:

1. Front filters for each lens.

2. A rear lens filter. Perhaps possible technically, could it be implemented physically and in time?

3. Factory replacement of the 0.5mm thin glass cover the CCD with its weak IR blocking capability, for one that is more effective.

4. A firmware/software solution: this can be partial at the most and needs to be in addition to IR cut off, offering, at best, a final tweaking of the color and luminance, not the primary correction.

It will be fascinating to see what the actual remedy might be!

Asher

Don Lashier

November 13th, 2006, 05:06 PM

Jamie Roberts found a C1 profile work-around.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9178-magenta-work-around-capture-one-workflow.html

- DL

Asher Kelman

November 13th, 2006, 05:40 PM

Jamie Roberts found a C1 profile work-around.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9178-magenta-work-around-capture-one-workflow.html

- DL

This solution appeared previously and I have also referenced it. We have yet to see whether or not it can deal completely with the following 3 phenomena:

1. Magenta cast, especially from IR refelctions from blacks on synthetics.

2. Ghost green blobs on the contralateral side of the picture to bright severely overexposed light sources.

3. Purple streaking from areas of severe over-exposure (4-7 stops may be needed).

Right now, the Phase One Ci profile is attractive for problem # 1, except we don't know about the robustness of this solutions for different components of the IR spectrum and diferent flux (luminence) levels. We also need to know if this software solution deals with the haphazard IR reflections.

Further, we have to find out to what extent, if any, other parts of the color space are impacted by the profile. If indeed, the problem is perfectly addressed so easily, then the erro is in not hiring Magne to make C1 profiles in the first place!

As I have been saying all along, I have faith in the M8. One way or another the issues will be addressed. Not only that, the remedies will be progressively refined.

Asher

Asher Kelman

November 14th, 2006, 03:35 AM

One thing I should add about software fixes. IR with most optical systems focuses to a different focal plane that does visible light..

Now it is said, but I have not found a definitive source, that Leica lenses focus the IR to the same plane. Just the same, on the pictures I have seen posted, the images taken with IR cut off filters, are it appears, sharper.

So, even though purists might find this distasteful, an IR cut-off filter in front of the lens is likely to be superior to any software solution.

Asher

Bart_van_der_Wolf

November 14th, 2006, 06:15 AM

[...] on the pictures I have seen posted, the images taken with IR cut off filters, are it appears, sharper.

Hi Asher, do you happen to have a link at hand? I'm not interested enough in the M8 to read the Leica forums, so I have no idea where to search. I'm quite happy with my current equipment and I don't have Leica glass like you do, but I find it an interesting subject by itself.

So, even though purists might find this distasteful, an IR cut-off filter in front of the lens is likely to be superior to any software solution.

But not all IR filters are usable. A hot-mirror type of coated filter (like the B+W 486 UV and IR cut (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/B+W_486_reflect.jpg)) changes its effectiveness with the angle of light incidence, and the resulting color in the visible spectrum as a result.

Here are two (linear gamma) examples on my Powershot G3 of a defocused gray card;
one at 7mm wide angle zoom position:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/G3_07-0_LM_486_C.jpg

and one at the 28mm tele zoom position:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/G3_28-8_LM_486_C.jpg

I've read that Sean Reid will test the M8 with such a 486 filter, I assume he'll confirm my experiences.

It would require a thin IR absorbing filter, which must be relatively expensive compared to a sensor package coverglass solution. A filter in front of the sensor package can be much smaller and, especially in DSLR's (due to restricted angle of incidence), would likely be subject to less challenging angles of incidence.

I don't know who offers such an absorbing filter.

Bart

scott kirkpatrick

November 14th, 2006, 04:00 PM

Sean Reid posted several pictures from a wedding that he shot last weekend with two M8s and 486 dichroic filters on each one. They look just fine, with natural and flash illumination. Go to the Leica camera users digital forum and look for the "Wedding pictures with M8" and "cut-filters" threads.

In the "cut-filters" thread, which is mostly Guy Mancuso, you can see the effect of putting a dichroic filter in front of a 21mm lens. This doesn't work as well, and leaves cyan tinges around the edges of the frame. It has been pointed out that the range of angles encountered in the ultra-wide angles (24, 21, 15, 12) at the front of the lens is much greater than the range of angles that the light makes meeting the sensor in back of the lens, so the "cyan vignetting" will be less if you fix this at the sensor than with a filter in front.

Something in which there is still forum confusion is just what sort of IR filter the Kodak KAF10500 imager chip is using. The DMR's imager, the Kodak KAF10100, used a dichroic with all the angle-dependence problems to be expected when the lens is moved much closer to the imager than in a DSLR. So the KAF10500, in addition to being much faster (two outputs) and holding 60K electrons per cell instead of 40K for greater dynamic range and ISO capability, has a mysterious "BS-7 absorptive cover glass, thickness 0.5 mm." One assumption is that Leica and Kodak accepted the color shift at the edges, but moved the IR cutoff deeper into the IR to avoid clipping the visible reds at the edges of the imager. But it is also possible that the M8's cover glass is simply a less sharply cutoff colored glass filter, non-dichroic, and thus having less angle-sensitivity.

Still somebody at Leica let fixing the IR sensitivity drop off the bottom of the todo list during 2006, with the present embarassing consequences.

scott

Bart_van_der_Wolf

November 14th, 2006, 05:27 PM

But it is also possible that the M8's cover glass is simply a less sharply cutoff colored glass filter, non-dichroic, and thus having less angle-sensitivity.

I think the angle sensitivity in an IR absorbing filter is also angle (longer travel distance) dependent, but depending on the lens design the angle is potentially less extreme. It's the (lack of) thickness that will define the fall-off.

Still somebody at Leica let fixing the IR sensitivity drop off the bottom of the todo list during 2006, with the present embarassing consequences.

Almost incredible, but apparently a design decision rather than an oversight. :-(

Bart

scott kirkpatrick

November 14th, 2006, 07:40 PM

I think the angle sensitivity in an IR absorbing filter is also angle dependent,
Bart

It's different. In an interference filter, passing through at an angle shifts the frequencies at which things cut off up into the visible. In an absorbing layer, passing through at an angle just causes more absorption because the path is longer. So the second case should look like more vignetting and not have a strong color shift. Since a focus in the redesign of the KAF 10500 was to minimize vignetting, but then remove whatever remains in firmware, this would be consistent.

scott

Will_Perlis

November 17th, 2006, 07:24 AM

I put the "good" dng back up. it's at:

http://home.pacbell.net/perlisw/L1010374.DNG

I'll try to leave it there.

Edmund Ronald

November 17th, 2006, 12:37 PM

I have extensively tested the M8, as it is delivered. It works by daylight. Every second night-time shot is wrecked. Also, white balance is always a lottery, by day or by night. If the camera is used in B&W it's mostly ok.

Everyone in the world including this site has refused to run a negative review of the M8 - such is the power of the Leica name. I sent Asher my review in the first week after the camera came out, he didn't believe me and never ran it.

If a point and shoot behaved like this it would be off the market pronto. Why not expect at least normal quality from Leica ?

Who cares about all this filter BS ? Every camera in the world except the Leica does decent colors and black blacks. Even cheap point and shoots.

Edmund

WillGood

November 17th, 2006, 01:12 PM

Ray West

November 17th, 2006, 02:29 PM

I guess Leica may be able to grind glass, and cut metal, build a traditional fim camera, but I think they are buying in virtually all the technology for the electronics, software, sensor, etc. , for the M8, or else they are themselves a tad useless. So, it's not really a leica anymore. It's just badge engineering, as far as Leica digital is concerned. It is probably not really a market place they want to be in. With film, the lens and build quality was everything. With digital, at the moment, progress is pretty fast, the sensor and software is the important thing, just the areas which Leica know little about. I think they have left it too late to catch up. Very much like the British motor bike industry, the swiss mechanical watchmakers, etc.

If they were aware of the problems before they shipped it (and I think they were) then actually shipping it, then the weak follow up letter, speaks volumes of the company's ethos. It may be just as well that they crash and burn.

Asher Kelman

November 17th, 2006, 07:36 PM

Leica .......buying in virtually all the technology for the electronics, software, sensor, etc. , for the M8, or else they are themselves a tad useless. So, it's not really a leica anymore. It's just badge engineering

The sensor and software is the important thing, just the areas which Leica know little about. I think they have left it too late to catch up. Very much like the British motor bike industry, the swiss mechanical watchmakers, etc.

Toyota, Apple, Airbus and Dell, all at the cutting edge depend on supply chains, which themselves have suppliers of advanced technology. This is one ecological system that works well. The Canon innards are, by legend at least, made by Canon. Today it's not unusual to have these lines of supply. Why expect less of Leica?

However, this is a harsh world. Bambi has to be alert, or she'll become the Big-Mac special.

Leica is no less, at risk. Leica's advantage is their superior glass and design of lenses. The mating of this advantage to a digital camera path to a final image file requires new system models. This is no longer, as you have pointed out, just a matter of brilliant machining of camera parts, silent shutters and stellar optics.

Now the main remaining digital back experts, Phase One, Jenoptic-Sinar-Leica, Kodak-Leaf so far, will make a "last stand" for themselves around the Hy6 standardized body.

This camera body has Rollei 6x6 6008 heritage, and does not require huge risks for anyone, just a chance of surviving based on the quality of the sensors and the software.

Leica is in this more competitive setup. It is now, I have been told by Leica representatives, organizationally closer to the integration of the Kodak sensors.

My own belief is that in Leica's case, the quality of the files, the utilty of hand-held photography at 1/15sec with the finest lenses ever made is exciting enoughto get the attention of a new breed of photographers always searching for the latest offerings. People will learn of the role of rangefinders and be open to the RD-1 and M8 even with all their limitations. They will be taken by the buzz on what rangefinder photography has to offer in close photgraphy:

The special sense of integration of the photographer, (using a rangefinder), with the field he is looking into, and the non-invasiveness of this type close photography, is going to have to assure the success of this camera.

This potential new rangefinder romance, addiction, affliction or love has to be strong enough to allow Epson and Leica to catch up. We need even better design, integration, software with every stage optimized by QC and feedback from the very photgraphers who use the rangefinders!

This are the bottom line real-politik, rules of survival. It's Leica's fortune, there are enthusiastic photgraphers that the M8 might tempt. After all the M8, despite flaws, offers a lot. I think a lot of people, just trying the Leica will fall in love!

Still, even with eyes wide open, photographers doing intimate work would do well to look at this unique tool. It is not at all suitable for much of photography. However, we will see in the coming weeks and months what it can do and do well for street photography, reportage, weddings and other circumstances whare the rangefinder always exceled.

Asher