Time to decide

[Ray West]

Hi,

I have come across a number of instances here, as everywhere, concerning making choices. Such as 'should I buy this new Leica camera, or put the money into a trust fund for my children's education'. Now, in such a case it is easy to decide, it is best to put your children up for adoption. The camera will be more reliable, and will cost you far less than children, and if you really think it is a choice you have to make, then your children will be better off with other parents.

However, some decisions are more involved, and I and others have found the following to always work. The simple technique has been applied to many different situations and it always works. In all seriousness, I suggest you give it a try too, it may save you a number of sleepless nights.

It can be a joint effort. For example, a young couple we knew, couldn't decide between paying for a grand wedding, or furnishing their house. They found the following method gave them a result that pleased them both.

It also has the advantage that it works just as well, whether you use a Mac, or IBM PC, even linux

I've linked to it , as a pdf, since you may wish to print it out for future use.

http://www.yertiz.com/pics/decisions.pdf

Best wishes,

Ray

[Cem_Usakligil]

Great advice Ray! This is what happens to me everytime I need to take a decision re. buying something. I tend to overanalyze things using Excel spreadsheets and the like, making extended feature lists, reading reviews on the net, and so on...At the end of the day, I actually know what I really want in my heart already at the beginning. The rest is just a process of rationalizing this decision to myself ;-).

Thanks for sharing and letting me know I'm not alone.

Cheers,

Cem

[Ray West]

Hi Cem,

Thanks for your thoughts. A spread sheet limits you too much. It restricts data entry to when you are in front of the pc, it may restrain you to your pre-conceived ideas of what you should be thinking about - (slicing the pie again), but at the end of the day, all things being equal, if you are happy with the results, then that is what matters.

Drawing that first line, its the positive, definite step towards an answer. It removes a load of worry, you've started to do something about it, solving the problem, that is. Then, once you've thought of something, wrote it down, you needn't keep it in your mind any more, but can think up, get triggered by events, whatever to get the next items.

I'm not sure if the conscious human mind is multi tasking, most men tend to think sequentially, whereas women can do more things at the same time, but that may be a cultural thing. If you don't make a note of the individual ideas, then you keep them in your memory by refreshing them, and what you think of first assumes greater importance - its not by chance that 'first impressions count', or that I can remember things from 50 odd years ago (and many were odd), but not things that happened last week.

Best wishes,


Ray (great minds think alike - not true)

[Dierk Haasis]

Hm, personally I find the process a bit tedious. I use several alternatives:

1. Tell my wife what I intend to purchase. Usually she sets my head straight (literally, she tears it off and puts it back on).

2. Tell my bank about a prospective new toy. They laugh heartily and throw me out.

3. Tell myself why the more expensive decision is right; call myself a jerk, not able to survive the real world.

4. Decide for the sensible expense. In the last minute I overthrow the democratic decision for the expensive toy.

Most of the time I can simply rely on No 4: Whatever decision I have reached by carefully examining the options, I will go the other direction.



*I am not married, not living with a significant other or even entertain somebody else beside me.

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hm, personally I find the process a bit tedious. I use several alternatives:....4. Decide for the sensible expense. In the last minute I overthrow the democratic decision for the expensive toy.

Most of the time I can simply rely on No 4: Whatever decision I have reached by carefully examining the options, I will go the other direction.
LOL, this is exactly what I meant to say when I wrote earlier:

..At the end of the day, I actually know what I really want in my heart already at the beginning. The rest is just a process of rationalizing this decision to myself ;-)...

No matter how hard I rationalize about it, in the end I end up buying the gizmo to which I am emotionally attached (which is very often way more expensive than the rest). BTW, do you at least entertain yourself well? If so, the rest is unimportant ;-)

Cheers,

Cem
(Who does not claim to have a great enough mind in order to conclude whether he thinks alike with really great ones or not.... possibly not considering the fact that they are great and he is not)

[Ray West]

Hi Dierk,

Unfortunately, I can not decide if to reply to you until about four days have elapsed. In the meantime, since you only have yourself to worry about, and you always buy the expensive toy, and the price seems to be the important factor, would you like to buy a bit cheaper, and send the difference to a child adoption society, say? ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

[Mary Bull]

Well, I myself don't have a wife, but otherwise, Dierk, I seem to behave exactly as you describe.

Turning me loose at CompUSA late on a Saturday night is like giving a chocaholic kid a credit card with no upper limit in an upscale candy store.

I'm still in the grip of euphoria over this great Samsung monitor, 22-in. wide, and the truly grandiose HP Multimedia Pavilion--made for TV watching but all the faster for me, since I didn't enable any of the multimedia stuff in set-up.

And now I don't have to worry about deleting all my blurry dud photo files for awhile longer, at least--this thing downloads and stores movies, or so the owner's manual says. But I'm just going to store all the mailing list mails and my blurry photos on it--at least, for awhile.

As Ray commented in my "Personal Report" thread, nothing like new toys!

Mary

[Mary Bull]

Amen, me too, same goes for me, also, Cem.

Mary
(shaking head ruefully)

[Alain Briot]

Life is too short to make pros and cons shopping lists over days or weeks ;-)
Just go for the gusto, provided your financial situation can support it.

And keep in mind that while you may be able to do something today and not feel the pinch too bad, the same may not be possible to be said about tomorrow, or yesterday for that matter.

Personally, I have made many life-changing decisions based on this fact: my personal situation at the time and whether this (the decisive factor) is what I love to do or not. I haven't regretted any of them and I made many. Each time the return was worth many times my investment.

[Don Lashier]

What I have discovered is that many decisions I have agonized over have proven to be inconsequential while decisions I gave little thought to proved to be life altering - so I don't fret too much.

- DL

[Asher Kelman]

I have made lists and rated things only to realize that I'm motivated to assign whatever scores will give me the result I'm partial too. That's why one needs a scientific method in inquiry. Here it is not possible.

Luke learned the hard way, one needs to go with the force! Have a goal, you want the right equipment, go get it if you want it that much!

Asher

[Cem_Usakligil]

...Luke learned the hard way, one needs to go with the force! Have a goal, you want the right equipment, go get it if you want it that much!
But remember! Beware must you be of the dark side, my young padawan... (LOL)

Cheers,

Cem

“Do or do not... there is no try.”

[Jason C Doss]

Life is too short to make pros and cons shopping lists over days or weeks ;-)
Just go for the gusto, provided your financial situation can support it.

Luckily, most reputable places have a 14 day return policy, so if you make an impulse purchase that you soon regret, you could always send it back sans a nominal shipping fee.

As far as life-changing decisions, I also have found that most of those are made for you. The decision tree is a good idea if you have that kind of control, but I find that most of the time I don't.

[Alain Briot]

What I have discovered is that many decisions I have agonized over have proven to be inconsequential while decisions I gave little thought to proved to be life altering - so I don't fret too much.

- DL

Good point. Plus, unlike store purchases, life-changing decisions do not have a money-back guarantee ;-)

[Alain Briot]

http://www.beautiful-landscape.com/OPP/Choices.jpg

An example of choices: on the left, using Ray's list. On the right, not using Ray's list ;-)

[Don Lashier]

An example of choices: on the left, using Ray's list. On the right, not using Ray's list ;-)
... and the one on the right is "life altering" ;)

- DL

[Alain Briot]

... and the one on the right is "life altering" ;)
- DL


Indeed! And in more ways than one. I would say "intoxicating" or "addictive" as well ;-)

Laughing out loud as I type

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi guys,

Is this where one signs up for the life altering decisions class?
I'd very much like to alter mine if this picture gives any indication as to what then would await me ;-)

Cem
(really laughing out loud and hard)

[Alain Briot]

"Is this where one signs up for the life altering decisions class?
I'd very much like to alter mine if this picture gives any indication as to what then would await me ;-) "

(line removed by moderator - subliminal advertising....)

Still laughing out loud

[Mary Bull]

An example of choices: on the left, using Ray's list. On the right, not using Ray's list ;-)

Do you believe in love at first right? (Right move of the eyes, that is.)

Mary
< who free associates in rhyme and loves The Beatles >

[Alain Briot]

Hi Mary,

"Do you believe in love at first right? (Right move of the eyes, that is.)"

Being French, I have to say I do... which is why Ray's list doesn't necessarily work for me.


There is no substitute ;-)

Still laughing

[Mary Bull]

Hi Mary,

"Do you believe in love at first right? (Right move of the eyes, that is.)"

Being French, I have to say I do... which is why Ray's list doesn't necessarily work for me.
For me, neither.

I do make pro and con lists when faced with some really big choice, like my move to Nashville, in 2003.

But, in the end, I follow my heart. Finances aside--how could I resist living next door to the sister who taught me to play the piano in 1932 and introduced me to Shirley Temple's rendition of "The Good Ship Lollipop," in 1934?
There is no substitute ;-)

Still laughing
"I just want somebody to love."

No substitute for that, either! < laughing but serious >

Mary

[Alain Briot]

Mary,

I think we both look at life in a similar manner. I like your approach.

"There is no substitute" is Porsche's advertising slogan, which is why I used it. I do like it.

[Mary Bull]

Mary,

I think we both look at life in a similar manner. I like your approach.
And I like yours.

"There is no substitute" is Porsche's advertising slogan, which is why I used it. I do like it.
Good car, good advertising slogan.

"I just want somebody to love" is the companion line of that Beatles song from which I paraphrased. Goes,

"Would you believe in love at first sight? ...
I want somebody to love."

And then, "I just need somebody to love."

I accidentally put "just" in with "want," but a quick Google has showed me that it goes with "need" in The Beatles song, "A Little Help From My Friends."

However, that's a very sad song, actually. Sorry, really, now, that it came to mind.

Especially since I'm presently feeling so upbeat.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

I like the Beatles. In France, I learned English as much in class as by memorizing lyrics. Some of them I only understood much later, as with proverbs and sayings which require a cultural background that I was lacking back then.

I'm off to the post office with Natalie to ship packages in our "delivery" vehicle ;-) I currently listen to Bob Dylan's latest album "Modern Times".

[Mary Bull]

Oh, I love Bob Dylan, lyrics and music both, also.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

Yes (for Dylan). The lyrics are just superb and his last album is very "rock", quite different from what he was doing previously. There are some gems in there. It's available via iTunes (which is where I got mine). YOu can then burn a CD, straight from iTunes, to play in your car :-) Very cool.

[scott kirkpatrick]

What I have discovered is that many decisions I have agonized over have proven to be inconsequential while decisions I gave little thought to proved to be life altering - so I don't fret too much.

- DL

I bet the first category has included the many desperate attempts we make to optimize the choice between far too many perfectly acceptable alternatives, while the second category is between a good alternative and a bad alternative. Recognize these in time, and they are no-brainers. There's a third category. If you discover that you are choosing between two alternatives, neither of which is what you wanted, ask how you got into this fix in the first place, and where it could have been completely avoided.

'nuff philosophy.

scott

[scott kirkpatrick]

http://www.beautiful-landscape.com/OPP/Choices.jpg

An example of choices: on the left, using Ray's list. On the right, not using Ray's list ;-)

My first thought, on looking at the two cars, was that Mom's minivan was on the left, and Dad's Porsche on the right. But then I noticed that the car on the left is suspiciously small. It is one of the Chrysler Co's hommages to the American cars of the thirties, as chopped and channelled by the hot rod builders of the LA basin in the fifties and sixties. So self-image, or "love at first sight" seems to have played a role even in the selection of the Briot delivery van!

Am I right?

scott

[Dierk Haasis]

It's the PT Cruiser - a rather ugly retro-looking car. At least the other one is a proper Porsche [visually almost as boring as a Golf], not the ugliest car in the world, a Porsche Cayenne [although it's essentially a VW witha Porsche bagde - again].

[Cem_Usakligil]

It's the PT Cruiser - a rather ugly retro-looking car. At least the other one is a proper Porsche [visually almost as boring as a Golf], not the ugliest car in the world, a Porsche Cayenne [although it's essentially a VW witha Porsche bagde - again].
Now, where did I read this very discussion before? <wink>
LOL
Cem

[Mary Bull]

It's the PT Cruiser - a rather ugly retro-looking car.
And fairly miserable to ride in, and, according to my nephew, fairly miserable to drive, as well. He rented one in Birmingham, Alabama, to drive up to Nashville when he finished teaching his class there, last Friday, having flown to Birmingham from Detroit, after his teaching stint in Michigan.

Very poor pick-up available in the PT Cruiser, a factor in highway safety.

I rode in the passenger seat of it on Saturday, all around Nashville, because my nephew's wife was using their van to take people to the polls--she was the transport committee chairman, but she drove several people to the early voting place downtown, also.

However, to my delight--the polls being closed for the day--we took the family van, my nephew's wife also along with us, when it transpired that I needed to shop for a new computer.

From one front passenger's point of view, a critique of the PT Cruiser:

Easy enough to get into, no lumbar support in the seat and insufficient cushioning for the tailbone. Good view through the front windshield and side windows. I kept forgetting where the door handle was, although the manual seat-belt engagement presented me no problems.

And, even in local traffic, I noted the problems with slow pick-up, and was actually the one to mention the issue first to my nephew. He normally drives a Ford Taurus and I enjoy riding in it very much.

Of course, its big selling point when first marketed--and perhaps even yet--was conservation of gasoline (petrol) resources, IIRC.

Mary
(no connossieur of autos, but who know what she likes, all the same)

[Mary Bull]

Yes (for Dylan). The lyrics are just superb and his last album is very "rock", quite different from what he was doing previously. There are some gems in there. It's available via iTunes (which is where I got mine). YOu can then burn a CD, straight from iTunes, to play in your car :-) Very cool.
Very cool, indeed, Alain.

Do you happen to have the DVD (from PBS) of *No Direction Home*, the documentary on Bob Dylan, directed by Martin Scorsese?

I watched the program the first time it aired and immediately ordered mine. Have viewed it three times in the past few months. It's extremely interesting, and if you don't happen to have seen it on PBS, worth shopping for at the PBS on-line store, I think.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

I've seen it on PBS and it is interesting. I love movies about musicians and have seen most of them. There are cinemas in Paris that play only that kind of movie and you can pay the entrance fee once then stay all day and watch all sorts of different movies.

What I liked about Dylan was his awareness of why he was getting such bad rap at the beginning of his career, playing with country bands with a new and unpopular-yet style. It's very interesting because so many artists have such a difficult time coping with people who do not like what they do, because they want everyone to love their work, even when upon reflection this is clearly not in the cards. I talk about that regularly in my essays, and I think I will use Dylan's early experience the next time I do so. A lot of what I write about right now is about art using photography as my point of departure.

And of course Martin Scorcese is a riot, and a genius. He has a new movie out with Jack Nicholson et al. He did a commercial for American Express which I think is just as good a description of his artistic approach as any documentary about his work so far. In it he is at Walgreens (or such) looking at snapshots they printed for him, and as he goes through them quickly in front of the clerk he "edits them" live saying things like "What was I thinking-where is the framing?" "Definitly no character development there!" "How can you get in the plot with that?" and so on. The conclusion, as can be expected since it is a commercial, is that "I'll have to shoot this all over again". Some commercials can be fun.

On a different note Natalie and I are going to see the Rolling Stones in Glendale on Nov. 8th. They are playing in the new super-size stadium where they'll have the Super Bowl either next year or the year after that. It's a short drive from where we are.

Regards,

[Alain Briot]

Self-image, or "love at first sight" seems to have played a role even in the selection of the Briot delivery van! Am I right?
scott

Hi Scott,

Right on except that this is the delivery vehicle ;-)

http://beautiful-landscape.com/OPP/Delivery.jpg

[Mary Bull]

I've seen it on PBS and it is interesting. I love movies about musicians and have seen most of them. There are cinemas in Paris that play only that kind of movie and you can pay the entrance fee once then stay all day and watch all sorts of different movies.
Paris=movie heaven, then, among other things.

What I liked about Dylan was his awareness of why he was getting such bad rap at the beginning of his career, playing with country bands with a new and unpopular-yet style. It's very interesting because so many artists have such a difficult time coping with people who do not like what they do, because they want everyone to love their work, even when upon reflection this is clearly not in the cards.
Indeed. It's only human to want to be loved and to have what one does loved and praised. Never gonna be totally in the cards.

Very hard to reach down inside for the confidence to believe in one's own opinion--when most of the time the best course is to analyze and reflect upon the opinions being offered by others. And the good judgment and self-confidence to know when you're right and stick by it--for most of us these traits are hard-won and may take a lifetime to fully develop.
I talk about that regularly in my essays, and I think I will use Dylan's early experience the next time I do so. A lot of what I write about right now is about art using photography as my point of departure.
You know that I love your essays. They are an inspiration to me, but beyond that, for me, a pure pleasure to read.
And of course Martin Scorcese is a riot, and a genius. He has a new movie out with Jack Nicholson et al. He did a commercial for American Express which I think is just as good a description of his artistic approach as any documentary about his work so far. In it he is at Walgreens (or such) looking at snapshots they printed for him, and as he goes through them quickly in front of the clerk he "edits them" live saying things like "What was I thinking-where is the framing?" "Definitly no character development there!" "How can you get in the plot with that?" and so on. The conclusion, as can be expected since it is a commercial, is that "I'll have to shoot this all over again". Some commercials can be fun.

Oh, I feel so left out!! I haven't seen this one yet.

Most of the time my TV is turned off. I get very weary of the election hype going on right now, and, for the places and programs I do like to watch--they're taking second place to OPF, at the moment.
On a different note Natalie and I are going to see the Rolling Stones in Glendale on Nov. 8th. They are playing in the new super-size stadium where they'll have the Super Bowl either next year or the year after that. It's a short drive from where we are.
I'm so impressed. Enjoy yourselves--I know that you will.

I have a sister-in-law who lives in Glendale--the widow of my mother's youngest brother. He was a photographer and worked in the technical end of things at Warner Bros., from the end of WWII until the end of his life. He had 13 children, of whom 12 survive. One of the pair of twins did not live past infancy.

One of those children still lives in Glendale with his wife. And he's retired from Warner Bros.--was a sound recordist there.

His IP began bouncing my e-mails a year or two ago. So now we're in touch only around Christmas every year. He's the only one of this set of first cousins I've met. Wonderful man--I cherish him.

As you're learning, I'm blessed with a very large extended family.

Anyway, enjoy the Stones!

Mary

[Alain Briot]

"Anyway, enjoy the Stones!"

I have to check if Keith Richards is fully recovered from his fall out of a coconut tree and onto his head ;-)

Alain

[Mary Bull]

Alain, I would post only a smiley smile, but we have to put more than 1 character--as a matter of fact, I think it has to be 5 characters for the software to take the post.

Anyway, I'm laughing out loud at this last comment from you.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

I think Keith's condition will be clear as soon as he walks onto the stage... ;-) The opening of the Steel Wheels Concert DVD is what I am thinking about (at least I think its Steel Wheels, I'll have to check). I'm in the midst of writing right now.

[Mary Bull]

Then don't let me intrude further. I've really enjoyed exchanging posts with you today, but your writing has first place, in my mind.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

It's actually no problem. I enjoy going in and out of the forum as a way to break from my writing. Keeps me sharp ;-) Plus it's fun. I can walk and chew gum;-)

Laughing out loud

PS- The reason why I mention that "I can walk and chew gum" is because I learned of this metaphor through a customer at a show on a day when that person was talking to me while I was perparing their receipt. I made mistakes on their total, because I was trying to listen at the same time I was adding their purchases, which led to the customer saying that "I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time." I have always been somewhat unclear as to how people can hang artwork in their house by artists who they insulted or found inept. But, again, there is a lot of things that I don't understand ;-)

I prefer to laugh at it, hence my LOL remark .

[Mary Bull]

It's actually no problem. I enjoy going in and out of the forum as a way to break from my writing. Keeps me sharp ;-) Plus it's fun. I can walk and chew gum;-)

Laughing out loud
It is certainly fun for me to talk with you. So, now you have reassured me that I'm not wearing out my welcome, and I was really concerned that I might be.

However, sometimes, indeed, I can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
< Read: "I can't write back and clean a beloved cat's litter box at the same time." She has me trained, and from a tiny kitten has never tolerated a used litter box--she demands that it be tended to the moment she finishes using it. >
PS- The reason why I mention that "I can walk and chew gum" is because I learned of this metaphor through a customer at a show on a day when that person was talking to me while I was perparing their receipt. I made mistakes on their total, because I was trying to listen at the same time I was adding their purchases, which led to the customer saying that "I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time."
There are too many crude, hateful people in this world. And you are right, we can only laugh and move on away from them as soon as possible, when we do encounter them.
I have always been somewhat unclear as to how people can hang artwork in their house by artists who they insulted or found inept. But, again, there is a lot of things that I don't understand ;-)
You and me both!
I prefer to laugh at it, hence my LOL remark .
I'm glad you told me the anecdote.

It's interesting to know how people first encounter an idiom, or a metaphor that has entered the common speech. I've heard this one so much that it doesn't even startle me any more. And I don't know how long it's been around. Always, it arrives to the ear with the aura of "put-down."

And, if it's directed at you, "LOL" is the best way to deflect the sting.

As in, "don't sweat the small stuff."

Five days now till October 31. November is headed our way, and the publication date of your book, which I am eagerly awaiting.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

Hi Mary,

I first encountered the metaphor/idiom "one of these days" through the titled of Pink Floyd's song on Dark side of the Moon. It took me easily 10 to 15 years until I understood what it meant from a cultural perspective. I have many such examples. "Stray cat blues" from the Rolling Stones for example. It never dawned on me for a long long time that a cat could be anything but a cat ;-) Some of them I still wonder about. I ask Natalie but she can't figure it out either. Makes me feel better because it makes me feel like I'm not the only one to be confused. "Wee wee hours" is one of them. What exactly are the wee wee hours ? Should I read it as "Oui Oui" or is there something else to it? Of course there is the entire range of metaphors. I remember being in sociology class in college and having to explain what "she flipped her wig" meant. I had to go to the teacher to get pointers explaining it just wasn't fair since I grew up on the other side of the ocean. Sometimes even Natalie doesn't know where metaphors she's used forever really comes from. "Out in left field" is a good example. There's simply not that much going on in the left side of the baseball field ;-) The number of American metaphors coming out of baseball are actually staggering. One could devote an entire book just going over them.

We could have a thread just on that too.

The book is scheduled to be published November 17.

Alain

[Ray West]

Hi Alain,

It depends where you are from, I do not know the music/word context you mentioned. but in Northern England, maybe Scotland, 'wee' means very small, tiny. Wee wee could mean very very small, smaller than a small thing. The wee hours of a day, depends on what time you get up, I suspect, but would probably mean three or four in the morning, I guess, 'the small numbers on the clock.

Now, for children, when they want to go to toilet, because folk do not like to hear their beloved three year old say ('mummy, mummy, I want to urinate!) tend to get them to say things like 'mummy,mummy, I need to wee-wee) which may well be the more rock and roll intention here. As you get older, as the quantity gets more, and perhaps things become more urgent, it gets shortened too, 'I need to go for a wee'. (only one wee)

It may be coincidence that you often need a wee in the wee hours of the morning, and I suppose there could be some other tie up between the two meanings.

Best Wishes,

Ray

(the next lesson is on someone who is a gossip, being referred to as 'an old scuttlebutt', not used much today...)

[Mary Bull]

Hi Mary,

I first encountered the metaphor/idiom "one of these days" through the titled of Pink Floyd's song on Dark side of the Moon. It took me easily 10 to 15 years until I understood what it meant from a cultural perspective. I have many such examples. "Stray cat blues" from the Rolling Stones for example. It never dawned on me for a long long time that a cat could be anything but a cat ;-) Some of them I still wonder about. I ask Natalie but she can't figure it out either. Makes me feel better because it makes me feel like I'm not the only one to be confused. "Wee wee hours" is one of them. What exactly are the wee wee hours ? Should I read it as "Oui Oui" or is there something else to it?
I'm laughing out loud now, at all the things you've had to contend with in my mother tongue. Laughing in sympathy.

Do you know the nursery rhyme, "This little pig went to market/This little pig stayed home/this little pig had good roast beef/This little pig had none" etc.?

You play it with a young child's toes--and when you get to the little toe you say, "This little pig cried, 'wee, wee, wee'/All the way home."

As soon as you wrote "oui, oui" above that popped into my mind. One could easily substitute that for what the fifth little pig cried.
Of course there is the entire range of metaphors. I remember being in sociology class in college and having to explain what "she flipped her wig" meant. I had to go to the teacher to get pointers explaining it just wasn't fair since I grew up on the other side of the ocean. Sometimes even Natalie doesn't know where metaphors she's used forever really comes from. "Out in left field" is a good example. There's simply not that much going on in the left side of the baseball field ;-) The number of American metaphors coming out of baseball are actually staggering. One could devote an entire book just going over them.
Yes, indeed!

I have had my own limited experiences with metaphors from a foreign language/culture. The phrase "owls to Athena" is one from Germany, which of course had to be explained to me. It's like the British/US "coals to Newcastle." Do you have something like that in French?

I'm always wary of explaining things too much among an erudite crowd like the OPF members--lest I be carrying coals to Newcastle, where there is already plenty of coal.
We could have a thread just on that too.
Yes. Perhaps I should start one, "Stumbling Over Metaphors in a Second Language," or some such title.
The book is scheduled to be published November 17.
I'm on your "notify" e-mail list, so I'll be watching for that reminder!

Mary

[Mary Bull]

Ray's critique on "wee, wee hours" included:
It may be coincidence that you often need a wee in the wee hours of the morning, and I suppose there could be some other tie up between the two meanings.
... and I'm laughing out loud, mostly at myself. I just finished writing to Alain about the "five little pigs" nursery rhyme game that one plays with a very young child, counting on toes at the appropriate lines.

For the first time it occurs to me that maybe that fifth little pig merely wants mommy to locate a bathroom for him and isn't worried about getting some of the "good roast beef" at all!

Mary

[Ray West]

Hi Mary,

As you are probably aware, most nursery rhymes were based on historical fact, a verbal political cartoon of the time. Obvious ones were 'Grand Old Duke of York', 'Mary, Mary, how does your Garden Grow', 'Humpty Dumpty', and so on and so forth. When you mentioned the 'five little piggies', I assumed that the' wee, wee, wee', for the last, alluded to the French 'Oui, Oui, Oui', and that it referred to a time in history, when perhaps five people, even countries, kings or bishops, (I've a suspicion it may be popes, perhaps to do with the knights templars) did those things, at least allegoricaly, the last one running to France for help, shouting in effect yes, yes, yes. I can not locate any thing to confirm or deny that, only that it was supposedly written in 1728. Most such rhymes were handed down by word of mouth, carried from town to town by news tellers, etc.

The following link has some information, but I can not vouch for its accuracy. In particular, the words would be different I suspect, in different parts of the english speaking world, and if they went to America, then it could well be that the American versions are nearer the original. (in the same way as this time of year is called 'fall' in usa, and 'autumn' in UK, but it used to be called 'fall' over here too.)

http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/nursery_rhymes/nursery_rhymes_index.htm Be aware, I think this site has annoying pop-ups, etc.

Best wishes,

Ray

[Alain Briot]

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your explanations. I think "the small hours of the morning" are a poetic version that I enjoy. The other makes sense, but I prefer the first for poetic reasons.

By the way, sorry about your list not working for me. I am, by nature, an artist and in practice more Voltarian than Cartesian. In fact, while I was born in Paris, I grew up in Voltaire's native town, Chatenay Malabry, which in recent months has become known for being the location where the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) lab is located and thus the place where certain pro-cyclists' fate is being decided.

Great link to the nursery rhymes! Thank you.

Mary,

So what do you think it mean when the little pig cries 'wee, wee, wee' all the way home? Is "Wee, wee, wee" simply a cry for pain or help? Or "yes yes yes" as ray suggests?

[Ray West]

Hi Alain,

Not my list now, its yours, everybodies, if they want. I try very hard to not be too attached to my thoughts or ideas, 'once the words are spoke, they are no longer mine,' they logically can't be, 'cos if they were, 'I could unspeak them'. This is not to say I won't argue, if I think I (or hopefully anyone else), has been misunderstood. It wouldn't be much fun if everyone was like me, or like you. Now, if you've decided, having spent four days with a piece of paper, trying to decide that spending four days to decide that deciding it in that manner is not for you, then, one of us needs help ....

wrt nursery rhymes, many of them we are now not allowed to say, the pc thought police having struck.

Best wishes,

Ray (pc == politically correct)

[Mary Bull]

Ray, I do like your idea that "This little pig went to market" was originally political satire, as so many English nursery rhymes are. It makes sense for the transcription from "oui, oui, oui" to "wee, wee, wee" to have occurred, and pretty early on, at that.

I learned this one from my mother--can't recall her playing the game with my own toes, but I certainly remember her playing it with my three just-younger sisters. And definitely I played it myself with those younger siblings, including my baby brother. Still later, with my own children.

Interestingly, I can't recall this particular one ever being set to music. Unlike "Jack and Jill," "Lazy Mary Will You Get Up," and "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary."

A lot of English queens were named Mary. But, as I grew up within a close-knit family, sometimes the latter two were sung at me!

Mary

[Mary Bull]

I definitely think the little pig was crying "yes, yes, yes" all the way home.

See my reply to Ray, just now posted.

Mary

[Alain Briot]

The phonetic penning of oui as wee clarifies one of my longest-standing nagging questions about idioms.

Thank you.