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Monochrome Debate

I recently got into a debate with a few members at my camera club over Monochrome images.
I know typically that it is considered to be only done in black, However my debate was in the definition is it done with only one color and the shade(s) of that said color then it too should be classified as a Monochrome image.

Take this image for example:
I first converted it to B&W from Color, then did an overlay of purple, then did a color overlay of the same purple.
Should this be classified as Monochrome?
T_MonochromeIgor_CodyWhite.jpg

un-named by Cody W.​

Please chime in on this.
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
I would consider Cyanotypes and Argyrotypes, for example, to be monochrome. After all there is only one colour. Black and White magazine ran an article a few months ago on how to simulate Cyanotype in photoshop.

Mike


Cyanotype (not mine)
cyanotype.jpg


Argyrotype (not mine)
argyrotype.jpg
 
I recently got into a debate with a few members at my camera club over Monochrome images.
I know typically that it is considered to be only done in black, However my debate was in the definition is it done with only one color and the shade(s) of that said color then it too should be classified as a Monochrome image.

Hi Cody,

You are right. The confusion is between the terms Achromatic and Monochrome. Stricktly speaking, greytones are achromatic (actually all colors but in equal amounts), and monochrome is "of a single color".

Cheers,
Bart
 
I would consider Cyanotypes and Argyrotypes, for example, to be monochrome. After all there is only one colour. Black and White magazine ran an article a few months ago on how to simulate Cyanotype in photoshop.

Mike

Thanks Mike.
Now I will have to try and find a back copy of it.


Hi Cody,

You are right. The confusion is between the terms Achromatic and Monochrome. Stricktly speaking, greytones are achromatic (actually all colors but in equal amounts), and monochrome is "of a single color".

Cheers,
Bart
Thanks Bart.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cody,

I recently got into a debate with a few members at my camera club over Monochrome images.
I know typically that it is considered to be only done in black, However my debate was in the definition is it done with only one color and the shade(s) of that said color then it too should be classified as a Monochrome image.
If the term means composed of only one color, then none of these are monochrome; only a full frame of, perhaps, RGB 125,79,240, would be monochrome.

If the term means composed of colors of only one chromaticity, then many of the examples shown might qualify (I haven't analyzed them).

If it means only composed of black and full luminance white, only "line art" in "black and white" would qualify.

If it means only composed of white of any luminance (including zero, which we could then call "black"), then any gray scale image would qualify. (This seems to be the most widely used meaning in photography.)

If it means illustrating a social situation in which only two positions are recognized . . .

So, If we get an answer, what will we do with it?

When I send someone a gray scale image. I call it that.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Mike,

I would consider Cyanotypes and Argyrotypes, for example, to be monochrome.
I think that makes sense.

After all there is only one colour.

Not so.

For example, in this image:

Cyanotype (not mine)
cyanotype.jpg


there are colors of (among numerous others):

RGB 66,146,234; 238,244,251; 23,71,205

All the colors are not of the same chromaticity, either, although they don't differ gigantically.

Nor are they all of the same hue, either, although they don't differ gigantically.

I guess you mean that all the colors in the image could reasonably be called "blue".

Best regards,

Doug
 
Last edited:
Doug,

Now lets look at this another way, Some home printers have the option of changing what color of ink they print in.

So lets say you have a picture thats in B&W, and you change your printer to print in Blue, or Magenta, or even Yellow, would they not be then classified as a grey scale or Achromatic print.

Cody
 

Mark Hampton

New member
Hi, Mikem


I think that makes sense.



Not so.

For example, in this image:

Cyanotype (not mine)
cyanotype.jpg


there are colors of (among numerous others):

RGB 66,146,234; 238,244,251; 23,71,205

All the colors are not of the same chromaticity, either, although they don't differ gigantically.

Nor are they all of the same hue, either, although they don't differ gigantically.

I guess you mean that all the colors in the image could reasonably be called "blue".

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

that is not a cyanotype - unless you have measured from the object all you have measured is the poor copy in a rubbish colour space ... measure a real one for us in a real colour space not a model....

go on... If you do i will read you some burns oot !

cheers
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cody,

Doug,

Now lets look at this another way, Some home printers have the option of changing what color of ink they print in.

So lets say you have a picture thats in B&W, and you change your printer to print in Blue, or Magenta, or even Yellow, would they not be then classified as a grey scale or Achromatic print.

If I told my printer to only use black ink, and put in white paper, then what I would get would be a gray scale print (what is often called "black and white").

If I told it to print everything using only red ink, and put in white paper, I would get a red thing.

It would not be a gray scale print because none of the colors in it are (you guessed it).

Often such images are called "monochrome", probably not a bad "non-scientific" description. The light reflected from any place on them, however, is not monochromatic (nor is the light reflected from any place on anything we can make with any of our printers).

Technically, all the colors in it have a single hue. They differ (in terms of reflective color) in both saturation and "lightness" (the reflective equivalent of luminance).

If I tell the printer to print only using red ink, and put in blue paper, I will get a red and blue and purple thing.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Mark,

Doug,

that is not a cyanotype

I never said it was.

I don't think I've handled a cyanotype print (cyanotype is a process) for 50 years!

- unless you have measured from the object all you have measured is the poor copy in a rubbish colour space ... measure a real one for us in a real color space not a model....
I measured what was delivered to me and was being spoken of - a digital image.

Was that the CIE rubbish color space or the EBU one?

go on... If you do i will read you some burns oot !

Ah, wad a gift!

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
I am anxious for the referees to rule on this debate, as I will need the result to know in what category at the photographic competition at the State Fair of Texas to enter a piece of art my Epson Stylus Photo R1900 made the other day when two tanks had developed air emboluses.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
I am anxious for the referees to rule on this debate, as I will need the result to know in what category at the photographic competition at the State Fair of Texas to enter a piece of art my Epson Stylus Photo R1900 made the other day when two tanks had developed air emboluses.

Best regards,

Doug
Don't they have a "Serendipity" category? ;-)

Cheers,
 
Hi, Cody,



If I told my printer to only use black ink, and put in white paper, then what I would get would be a gray scale print (what is often called "black and white").

If I told it to print everything using only red ink, and put in white paper, I would get a red thing.

It would not be a gray scale print because none of the colors in it are (you guessed it).

Often such images are called "monochrome", probably not a bad "non-scientific" description. The light reflected from any place on them, however, is not monochromatic (nor is the light reflected from any place on anything we can make with any of our printers).

Technically, all the colors in it have a single hue. They differ (in terms of reflective color) in both saturation and "lightness" (the reflective equivalent of luminance).

If I tell the printer to print only using red ink, and put in blue paper, I will get a red and blue and purple thing.

Best regards,

Doug

HI Doug,

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Grayscale is a range of shades of gray without apparent color. The darkest possible shade is black, which is the total absence of transmitted or reflected light. The lightest possible shade is white, the total transmission or reflection of light at all visible wavelength(s)

Now if we know that Black has the ability to form different shade of Gray by the introduction of White. So would it be safe for me to say that Red, Blue, Or even Yellow would follow the same suite as Black in the Gray scale, Or should it be called a color scale.
Since printers only know how to print in Gray scale it should not matter what the primary color to print in is.

Now if I understand all this 255,255,255 numbers, they are just a recipe to produce a color, just like a artist mixes paints.
So basically if you start off with a Deep Blue paint or in our case with printers we have ink.
so if you add X amount of white you get one shade lighter of blue and so on down to pure white, or in our printers case what ever color our white paper is.
So in simple terms since our printers only have the Term print in gray scale, any color scale would be a Gray scale to a printer.

Cody

Edit to add poorly made scale chart.
scale.jpg
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cody,

HI Doug,

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Grayscale is a range of shades of gray without apparent color. The darkest possible shade is black, which is the total absence of transmitted or reflected light. The lightest possible shade is white, the total transmission or reflection of light at all visible wavelength(s)

Now if we know that Black has the ability to form different shade of Gray by the introduction of White.

Let me intrude right here to reflect a little on matters of colorimetry and photometry.

It is important that we distinguish between the color of light and the reflective colors of surfaces.

For example, in light, there is no such thing as "gray". There is white light of differing luminance.

We might have white light from the sun at midday, and later in the day, light of 1/10 the luminance - but it will still be white light. There is no gray light.

But of course we are speaking of printed images, where it is reflective color that is of interst.

There, we tend to consider a surface whose reflectance is uniform over the visible spectrum, and whose absolute reflectance is in the general area of 1.0, as "white". If instead, we have a surface whose reflectance is uniform over the visible spectrum but whose absolute reflectance is substantially less than 1.00, we call that gray.

Now if we had a surface whose reflectance is not uniform over the visible spectrum, we can describe that in terms of its "reflective chromaticity", which is a property we can express in several ways. One way is in terms of hue (this distinguishes, for example, "blue" from "red") plus saturation (distinguishes "red" from "pink").

Now, if we start with a certain reflective color, and decrease its reflectance at each wavelength over the visible spectrum proportionately, its chromaticity will remain the same but its lightness will decrease. If it was "some sort of blue", it is now "some sort of darker blue".

Now if I understand all this 255,255,255 numbers, they are just a recipe to produce a color, just like a artist mixes paints.

So basically if you start off with a Deep Blue paint or in our case with printers we have ink.

So if you add X amount of white you get one shade lighter of blue and so on down to pure white, or in our printers case what ever color our white paper is.
Keep in mind of course that in the case of a printer we are dealing with a "subtractive" color model rather than the "additive" model that pertains to the color of light.

So, of course, what you describe is not done by the printer adding white ink to the mix, but rather by us (some place in the whole chain) doing something that will, in the printer, cause a decrease the amount of (for example) blue ink. But I certainly follow what you are saying.

So in simple terms since our printers only have the Term print in gray scale, any color scale would be a Gray scale to a printer.

I am not at all attracted to calling a range of reflective colors that (perhaps) have a constant chromaticity, but not the chromaticity of white, "gray scale", regardless of what settings we may have made in teh poriunter to cause that..

I am not familiar with printers where the printer driver offers the option of:

• Printing in "grayscale", and
• Doing that with an ink color other than black.

But evidently there are such. Not having seen one, I am at a bit of a disadvantage.

I understand your concept that printing an image in different reflectances of the same chromaticity, but not a white chromaticity (sorry to say it in such a complicated way, but we have to be clear as to what we are talking about) is very parallel to printing it in gray scale.

But the term gray scale has a well-respected meaning (and an obvious one), and I see no need to stretch it.

Riding a mule is very parallel to riding a horse, but I would not want to argue for calling it "horse riding".

Best regards,

Doug
 

Randy Rebolos

New member
I recently got into a debate with a few members at my camera club over Monochrome images.
I know typically that it is considered to be only done in black, However my debate was in the definition is it done with only one color and the shade(s) of that said color then it too should be classified as a Monochrome image.

Take this image for example:
I first converted it to B&W from Color, then did an overlay of purple, then did a color overlay of the same purple.
Should this be classified as Monochrome?
T_MonochromeIgor_CodyWhite.jpg

un-named by Cody W.​

Please chime in on this.

Hi Cody,

To my mind your image is monochrome. One hue and different tones.

It's understandable to typically consider B&W (silver halide gelatin prints if this is what you mean) as monochrome but to believe that as the definition of monochrome would be a great disservice to older printing processes.

Van Dykes (sepia/rich browns) and Cyanotypes (prussian blue) are distinct examples of monochrome very different from B&W.

A cyanotype print from David Chow. Would love to post the photo itself but it is not mine http://altphotoprocess.blogspot.com/2010/10/latest-cyanotype-prints.html

Randy
 
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