In Perspective, Fun: introduction to 360 degree images

hello friends

given the warm recommendation from Ben, I think a small workshop of introduction to 360 degree images may be of some interest;

Of course I have my own limitations but I strongly believe that todays panoramas are better than yesterdays and maybe tomorrow I'll know more.

So my question is if there are interested persons, what they expect and how a panoramic workshop may be held here on openphotographyforums

The equipment needed is a camera with wide (preferably fish-eye) lenses, a good tripod and panoramic head - or any device that permits one to observe and use the camera considering the non parallax point

regarding the software, I know PTGUI and hugin; since hugin is open-source I believe it would be a good solution.

I'm on Canon but any camera will do.

I will answer the questions and do my best to help and maybe there will be future good 360 degree photographers among you; if only to learn something new it is a nice thing

I think those who are interested should say so

here is the link to the stitching program I'm recommending
http://hugin.sourceforge.net/download/

open-source and stable - also it exists on all the platforms.

downoload and install it and I'll meet you later

I have tried hugin, but I have never done a full immersive panorama. I am not sure I understand how one comes to the flash format panoramas I see on your like (360 cities).

I'm in for this challenge! Is Hugin as user friendly as Autopano Giga?

Asher

In a typical unix overimplementation fashion, Hugin looks as if it had been written by autistic mathematicians. It will do real wonders but has no consideration for mundane concerns like how much RAM do you have and considers informative messages to be sentences like "collapsing laplacian pyramids".

I like it.

I'm in!

Perhaps Asher can work out the details of how such an 'online workshop' can work. Video tutorials? Set tasks? Homework? I've never been on a workshop so I don't know what is involved.

I would like the opportunity to learn Hugin better and of course Valentin's instruction is what has got me to the point that I hope to have some nice material to show by next week!

Hi Valentin,

This is a great initiative and I respect you for selflessly undertaking it. Good luck. Let me know if I can help with anything.

@Jerome:

Jerome Marot said:

In a typical unix overimplementation fashion, Hugin looks as if it had been written by autistic mathematicians. It will do real wonders but has no consideration for mundane concerns like how much RAM do you have and considers informative messages to be sentences like "collapsing laplacian pyramids".

I like it.

Click to expand...

And I really like your sense of humour.

Cheers,

humour is good and appreciated

Well I believe people interested have downloaded hugin and are ready to give a try totheir first panorama.

In my experience the panoramic head could be bypass only by some very experienced photographers so for the future I suppose the interested persons are using one.

The hugin is a stable software that is free and brought me a lot of satisfaction. I have license to ptgui that is a little user friendlier but it costs money and as I said I do this for free and won't make you spend money on anything that's not necesary.

Because I am involved in panoramas I thought of a strong system with sufficient resources and I see not so often the panic messages regarding the RAM or the other limits. I am using a 2 1/2 year old macbook with 4GB RAM and usually an external HDD because I lack the hard disk space I need. I have installed on the computer besides the native OS X - Leopard , Windows XP (service pack 3) and Ubuntu (10.10). I needed all those because I wanted to be able to show any potential customer my panoramas.

The hugin is installed on either of them.

Regarding the publishing of the images, I now use the portal 360cities.net where most of my work is. An account is made for free and only professional or plus accounts cost something; with some luck one gets his/hers panoramas published this way on Google Earth (which has a Panoramio layer). The common solution is to create an html page that containg what it needs with a panorama player and publish it. I don't know about free solution there I believe there are others
despite the fact it isn't a part of the introduction, maybe this link will answer your questions http://www.panoramaphotographer.com/comparisons/index.html



So given the fact the introductions are made, I feel priviledged and honored to be able to teach and here is the first task : take the pictures for tha first panorama.
Depending on the lenses you are using, you will make a series of pictures on horizontal, observing the non parralax point.

The shots will be done at manual position, in RAW, exposed as good as your skills dictate but all of them using the same exposure: the same focus, same ISO, same exposure time, same stop, same white balance. Ideally bracketed series can be taken which would alow a better dynamic. The overlap I'm recommending is about 20 % between neighbouring pictures.
Do whatever corrections you need to and upload them somewhere I can see the images and try to figure out the lens parameters for hugin. Please let me see the EXIF.

I'll try to do this for you and after loading those parameters you will be able to stitch the pictures into your first cylindrical panorama.

my mistake : I forgot to mention on determining the npp

determining the precise position of the non parallax point is a little tricky but supposing you have a panoramic head you should know to use it; if you are using a ball-head the errors would be neglectful only if the object are placed very far.

here is an excellent article on determining the npp by famous panorama photographer John Houghton http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm

and for those really patient and willing to go profoundly here's some theory
http://www.janrik.net/PanoPostings/NoParallaxPoint/TheoryOfTheNoParallaxPoint.pdf

So let's see who is the first

I suppose the silence is due more to some misunderstanding rather than lack of interest to the activity.

I know many of you did passed the first cylindrical panorama and the problem is not complicated, so I don't understand this "shyness". Of course if it was payed the people interested were more eager to make a use of the time...

so please take a set of pictures upload where I can see them (in jpg with little or no compression but conserving the exif) and pass me the link so I may check them and help you with determining the parameters of the lenses. In short time you will be able to stitch the first panorama.

Since English is foreign languge to me, please forgive me for communication issues that may appear.

You haven't said whether there should be coverage of the entire sphere? have tons of space to upload images just am missing Sean! Will try to get him involved!

Asher

Hi Asher - it will be single central row - the first panorama will be cylinder and really easy

don't be afraid to make mistakes you will be the first to learn out of them and then all the other people involved.

take the pictures so it's 20% overlap covering the 360 degree horizon

Valentin Arfire said:

Hi Asher - it will be single central row - the first panorama will be cylinder and really easy

don't be afraid to make mistakes you will be the first to learn out of them and then all the other people involved.

take the pictures so it's 20% overlap covering the 360 degree horizon

Click to expand...

Here's a 360 degree pano with people added as a constructed tableaux. this is for fun and interest while we are setting up with Hugin which i've never used.

Jerome Marot said:

In a typical unix overimplementation fashion, Hugin looks as if it had been written by autistic mathematicians. It will do real wonders but has no consideration for mundane concerns like how much RAM do you have and considers informative messages to be sentences like "collapsing laplacian pyramids".

I like it.

Click to expand...

As I know mr Postle and mr Di Angelo, both programmers involved in the hugin project, I keep them in mind as wonderful people with an incredible sense of humour (British) and willingly to help always. Hugin developed for years and it's still open-source...

If I consider my small effort in promoting panoramic photography, it's nothing compared to theirs.

For now I'd be really happy if many of you will try and succeed making some 360 degree images - they are a way to travel and learn more, they are an open window to whatever is interesting and worth sharing from a fellow photographer

Jerome, I'm waiting for your series of images!

Asher Kelman said:

Here's a 360 degree pano with people added as a constructed tableaux. this is for fun and interest while we are setting up with Hugin which i've never used.

Click to expand...

This project seems more challenging than usual, so we must address it accordingly

What is expected to find in this image, what is the story? I can see the children and band members spread inside an equirectangular (or close to) projection

since spheres are similar one to another the first problem I see is that the centers should coincide, or the axis of the panorama from the point where it's opened to its station point should contain the point where the image of the band was taken.

then you should think twice before adding the shadows: such as is, the image is a collage, is like a poster where nobody is fooled by photoshop tricks. Going further you may get dangerous closely to kitsch.

Valentin Arfire said:

humour is good and appreciated

Well I believe people interested have downloaded hugin and are ready to give a try totheir first panorama.

Click to expand...

Hi Valentin,

Maybe it is useful to consider the following.

There are people who are already into shooting 360 pano's, pioneers like myself, so they will usually have little difficulty grasping the concepts, and they probably already used Hugin at some point in time. Then there are those who would like to wet their feet and try something new.

For the ones new to it, there is not much gear needed to start, just a wide angle lens. A fish-eye lens is useful, but a wide angle lens can also be used. In fact, some of the gigapixel VR examples on the web were shot with telelenses (200+ mm). The longer the focal length, the narrower the field of view for a single tile, the more images are needed to complete the circle or hemisphere we're trying to cover.

In addition to a lens, it is important to use a positioning device which allows the camera + lens to be moved forewards/backwards in order to align the lens' no parallax point with the axis of rotation. While it is possible to make 360x180 degree VR panoramas without such a 'slider', the longer the focal length is, the more difficulties one will need to resolve. So, for a speedy workflow a positioning device is recommended.

Now, to prevent a disruption in the flow of this thread because people have to first organise their gear, then go out and shoot a scene, maybe we could use some example files available on-line. Sure, it's not as much fun as using one's own images, but it will become more predictable if we all use the same image set. It will also allow people to learn Hugin without having to struggle in first finding the right gear (not everybody has a panohead).

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Hi Valentin,

Maybe it is useful to consider the following.

There are people who are already into shooting 360 pano's, pioneers like myself, so they will usually have little difficulty grasping the concepts, and they probably already used Hugin at some point in time. Then there are those who would like to wet their feet and try something new.

For the ones new to it, there is not much gear needed to start, just a wide angle lens. A fish-eye lens is useful, but a wide angle lens can also be used. In fact, some of the gigapixel VR examples on the web were shot with telelenses (200+ mm). The longer the focal length, the narrower the field of view for a single tile, the more images are needed to complete the circle or hemisphere we're trying to cover.

In addition to a lens, it is important to use a positioning device which allows the camera + lens to be moved forewards/backwards in order to align the lens' no parallax point with the axis of rotation. While it is possible to make 360x180 degree VR panoramas without such a 'slider', the longer the focal length is, the more difficulties one will need to resolve. So, for a speedy workflow a positioning device is recommended.

Now, to prevent a disruption in the flow of this thread because people have to first organise their gear, then go out and shoot a scene, maybe we could use some example files available on-line. Sure, it's not as much fun as using one's own images, but it will become more predictable if we all use the same image set. It will also allow people to learn Hugin without having to struggle in first finding the right gear (not everybody has a panohead).

Cheers,
Bart

Click to expand...

yes Bart - you are right
thank you for the intervention - your experience is much appreciated

on the panoramic head

a device that maintaing the npp a panoramic head or a rotor is the key to get further.

looking around I have found plenty devices diy - maybe besides the commercial products offered it's possible to make a dedicated personal panoramic head using relatively cheap materials and resolving the problem at a fraction of a price

maybe this is a good link with nice advice on building a panoramic head

http://www.peterloud.co.uk/nodalsamurai/nodalsamurai.html

on the workshop

but all this is somehow different to the purpose of the workshop - introducing people to panoramic photography

I will upload some images and then the interested parts may experiment and of course discuss on them, so we'll push ahead the workshop

Valentin Arfire said:

Jerome, I'm waiting for your series of images!

Click to expand...

This is going to take a few days, I'm afraid. I have used hugin to assemble pictures, but never did a full immersive panorama.

here ais my serie of images
http://valentin.europhoto.ro/2011/workshop/Caras/

there are 8 images around oriented at -15 degrees downwards and one straight up - zenith

I have reduced the size to 1500x2250 pixels for facilitating their transfer.

I have used tokina fisheye at 15 mm on Canot 5D (full frame). 4 images around would have been enough - I made 8 because I try to avoid troubles with cars and also the overlap at 4 shots is quite small at the center of the image.

On crop sensor there are of course more images needed for the same lenses.



so let's

heres the content of workshop.pto.
placing near the jpegs and opening it in hugin, you could stitch my pictures into an equirectangular panorama

# hugin project file
#hugin_ptoversion 2
p f2 w5940 h2970 v360 E13.9658 R0 n"TIFF c:NONE r:CROP"
m g1 i0 f0 m2 p0.00784314

# image lines
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra0 Rb0 Rc0 Rd0 Re0 Va1 Vb0 Vc0 Vd0 Vx0 Vy0 a-0.0118933186145912 b0.0123409100941704 c-0.0103411671391584 d-7.86167855991141 e13.4913257527606 g0 p-15 r0 t0 v91.8061596900622 y0 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_a.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-14.613270878754 r0.0149306356606006 t=0 v=0 y44.9872194713752 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_b.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-14.3734609854431 r0.250178016633162 t=0 v=0 y89.7795919781391 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_c.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-14.3061996166796 r0.562663507503725 t=0 v=0 y134.991947129745 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_d.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-14.551893184447 r0.876080954237148 t=0 v=0 y179.950525825887 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_e.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-14.9152616233756 r0.893507714841684 t=0 v=0 y-134.790924998072 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_f.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-15.1606232707798 r0.649181964390816 t=0 v=0 y-89.8103825132944 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_g.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p-15.2035316686017 r0.312388111478508 t=0 v=0 y-44.8365900454067 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_h.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra=0 Rb=0 Rc=0 Rd=0 Re=0 Va=0 Vb=0 Vc=0 Vd=0 Vx=0 Vy=0 a=0 b=0 c=0 d=0 e=0 g=0 p90 r0 t=0 v=0 y0 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_zenit.jpg"


# specify variables that should be optimized
v a0 b0 c0 d0 e0 v0
v p1 r1 y1
v p2 r2 y2
v p3 r3 y3
v p4 r4 y4
v p5 r5 y5
v p6 r6 y6
v p7 r7 y7
v p8 r8 y8
v

# control points
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#hugin_optimizeReferenceImage 0
#hugin_blender enblend
#hugin_remapper nona
#hugin_enblendOptions
#hugin_enfuseOptions
#hugin_hdrmergeOptions
#hugin_outputLDRBlended true
#hugin_outputLDRLayers false
#hugin_outputLDRExposureRemapped false
#hugin_outputLDRExposureLayers false
#hugin_outputLDRExposureBlended false
#hugin_outputHDRBlended false
#hugin_outputHDRLayers false
#hugin_outputHDRStacks false
#hugin_outputLayersCompression PACKBITS
#hugin_outputImageType jpg
#hugin_outputImageTypeCompression NONE
#hugin_outputJPEGQuality 100
#hugin_outputImageTypeHDR exr
#hugin_outputImageTypeHDRCompression

Hi Valentin, All,

Perhaps it is obvious but I want to point out that the script you have provided refers to your specific drive/directory (i.e. f:\pictures-2011\04\07.....) for the images. If anybody wants to use it, they should edit those lines first.

Cheers,

some explanations now
I haven't added verticals - they are necessary in order to obtain a horizontal horizon
the picture of zenit has no control points - I was lazy and actually the details are forgiving this time; in case of a cathedral of course some points should be necesary and some problems may appera during the optimisation process.

You can save the paramethers of my lenses and next time you open a set of my pictures the stitching should be automated
for the particular case ot other system camera/lense (and in case of zoom lenses different focuses) you'll have to put points in the "Control Points" tab.
in one window you'll have an image, go at 100% view, and in the other one select the following image. For each pair of images some 6 points must be placed and it should be spread mainly in the center of the lense where the optical problems are smaller.

Patiently , after placing control points over the pictures, find control points on the zenit image with as many images as possible - if possible try to place CP in all

OPTIMISATION
I suppose this is a key element where progresively the panorama will take shape and consistence.
when going to the Optimizer tab you'll find a selector of criteria of optimisation out of which you'll use progresively all from "position (incremental, starting from the anchor)", then "positions (y, p, r)", then "positions and view (y,p,r,v)", then "positions and barrel distortion (y,p,r,b), "then position, view and barrell (y,p,r,b)", and in the end "everything". The result of each optimisation should be a smaller error - the maximum distance between neighbouring control points.
In this panorama the maximum is 2.03 pixels. Nevertheless there are some stitching problems because I haven't put any points on the zenit image and some of the electric wires seem broken. In windy situation this requires some photoshop healing.

In the "stitcher" tab you can chose different projections and in the preview you can modify the image crop and position.

have fun

I believe that I may be jumping some steps in explanations; here is one link in English with details (sorry, I haven't read it, just met it and think you may find it interesting)

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/panorama/TOC.html

I am still waiting for the interested photographers to see your images.
And I remember I always have learned more from failure than frum easily lucky success - so don't be shy!

Valentin Arfire said:

heres the content of workshop.pto.
placing near the jpegs and opening it in hugin, you could stitch my pictures into an equirectangular panorama

# hugin project file
#hugin_ptoversion 2
p f2 w5940 h2970 v360 E13.9658 R0 n"TIFF c:NONE r:CROP"
m g1 i0 f0 m2 p0.00784314

# image lines
#-hugin cropFactor=1
i w1500 h2250 f2 Eb1 Eev13.9657842161378 Er1 Ra0 Rb0 Rc0 Rd0 Re0 Va1 Vb0 Vc0 Vd0 Vx0 Vy0 a-0.0118933186145912 b0.0123409100941704 c-0.0103411671391584 d-7.86167855991141 e13.4913257527606 g0 p-15 r0 t0 v91.8061596900622 y0 Vm5 u10 n"F:\pictures-2011\04\07\c\_photo_a.jpg"
#-hugin cropFactor=1............................................................................... etc

Click to expand...

Valentin,

I got sidetracked. Seeing this is a surprise to my eyes. Is there an introduction to this that I missed?

Asher

since I couldn't just put the workshop.pto file as attatchment, I copied its content as text.

no lesson missed only inactivity for a week...

I have posted a directory with a set of images and here is a pto project for hugin that stitch the pictures (taken on my Canon 5D, Tokina lenses and 360Precision panoramic head)

loading the project will permit the interested persons to try hugin on his/hers computer and obtain a panorama from it.

Besides the equirectangular projection some other are directly available - such as Rectilinear, Mercator, Cylindrical, stereographical, fisheye, Lambert.. , Albert... , Miller each one interesting and really opened to new experience for everyone.

so create a new file called workshop.pto in which place the text and experiment to see what happens.

Valentin Arfire said:

since I couldn't just put the workshop.pto file as attatchment, I copied its content as text.

no lesson missed only inactivity for a week...

I have posted a directory with a set of images and here is a pto project for hugin that stitch the pictures (taken on my Canon 5D, Tokina lenses and 360Precision panoramic head)

loading the project will permit the interested persons to try hugin on his/hers computer and obtain a panorama from it.

Besides the equirectangular projection some other are directly available - such as Rectilinear, Mercator, Cylindrical, stereographical, fisheye, Lambert.. , Albert... , Miller each one interesting and really opened to new experience for everyone.

so create a new file called workshop.pto in which place the text and experiment to see what happens.

Click to expand...

Thanks,

Then that's our homework!

Asher

a month of inactivity is a good enough proof of lack of interest
or could it be the people are shy and nobody found the courage to break the ice?

so please post your results and let's discuss what you've got

Let's get back into this! I've been away!!!

Asher

Valentin Arfire said:

a month of inactivity is a good enough proof of lack of interest
or could it be the people are shy and nobody found the courage to break the ice?

so please post your results and let's discuss what you've got

Click to expand...

This is awesome! I just joined this thread, but I loved the really in-depth tutorial on "The Theory of the No-Parallax-Point". It's been a while since I read something that didn't frustrate me with errors. Spot on!

A couple days ago, I took some panoramas of the snow on the mountains where I live. It's not enough to be 3-d, but for a first try, it turned out well. It's in the appropriate subforum, though I can't do full size without an e-mail or something.

Thanks so much for all the ideas!

-Adrian