Using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag with Epson R2400

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Hello everybody.

I bought the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper because it was recommended to me as one of the best papers. I am using it with my Epson R2400 printer (using matte ink) and I'm getting a really strange results when printing out of Photoshop. The pictures look much, much darker than on screen and the colors seem to be a little off. Does anybody have the correct recipe to make this combination work?

Thanks.

Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net
http://blog.gudbjargarson.net

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Johann,

The combination of Hahnemuhle and Epson 2400 has been discussed extensively on the photo-i.co.uk forums. Check out the following links for more info or do a search on Hahnemuhle in the forums to see more:

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=2011&highlight=hahnemuhle
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=1858&highlight=hahnemuhle
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=805&highlight=hahnemuhle

Hope this helps a bit and good luck!

Cem

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Thanks Cem for the reply.

I have read the forums you pointed to and the colors and appearance of the picture on print is still way off what I see on screen (I was using almost the same method as described in these forums). When I use matte and luster paper from Epson I get much better results. I'm not sure if I'm missing something.

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net
http://blog.gudbjargarson.net

[Ray West]

Hi Johann,

I can't give a specific answer, but I do know the printer has to be set exactly the same way as when the profile was made. Generally, the printer internal profile is set to disabled, and you set ps to do the profiling. the dpi, print quality, those printer settings are what need to be set as per profile, they govern the ink quantity laid down. If you havn't the correct info, try reducing them, one by one.
Best wishes,

Ray

[Nathaniel Alpert]

Hello everybody.

I bought the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper because it was recommended to me as one of the best papers. I am using it with my Epson R2400 printer (using matte ink) and I'm getting a really strange results when printing out of Photoshop. The pictures look much, much darker than on screen and the colors seem to be a little off. Does anybody have the correct recipe to make this combination work?

Thanks.

Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net
http://blog.gudbjargarson.net

This shouldn't happen. Tell us exactly how you are setting everything in photoshop and the printer driver. I think it should be possible to spot the probelm.

[Marian Howell]

i agree with Nathaniel that you need to tell us your exact printing setup in photoshop in order for us to help. i print via ps on that paper with a 2400 to great success. your results sound like a color management issue to me, and i know personally how easily that can get messed up!
Ian Lyons explains the setup well:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps9_print/ps9_print_1.htm

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Thanks everybody for your replies.

Nathaniel suggested that I would provide in detail what settings I'm using so here is what I do:

1. I started by profiling my monitor. It is Dell 24" monitor which is very bright so I have to turn each gun (red, green, blue) down a little bit to go down to the suggested Luminosity of 140. Here is the result from the profiling:
http://js.smugmug.com/photos/109380944-O.gif

2. Next I open up the picture in Photoshop in Adobe RGB and make all the adjustment until picture is as I want.

3. Duplicate image and go to View|Proof Setup|Custom on the duplicate and make this settings:
http://js.smugmug.com/photos/109384188-L.gif

4. Make minor adjustments so the proof will look identical to the original image (just minor changes).

5. Select Print with preview and make these selections:
http://js.smugmug.com/photos/109384264-L.jpg

6. Select Print and Properties and there make these selections:
http://js.smugmug.com/photos/109386650-L.gif

This of course is on Luster paper which is not as bad as the Hahnemuhle in my prints but isn't accurate and to dark. The only changes on the Hehnmuhle paper from this settings is I select the Hehnmuhle profile from their web page and select Enhanched matte paper or the Velvet fine art paper (both are to dark).

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net

[Nathaniel Alpert]

Johann, You didn't say which black ink cartiridge was installed. Please confirm that matte black is installed.

[Ray West]

Hi johann,

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_Epson.pdf

although not mentioning your specific paper, they do suggest black point compensation off, intent perceptual,

Best wishes,

Ray

[Cem_Usakligil]

Johan,

I think that the steps 3 and 4 introduce the problem into the equation. I personally avoid soft proofing at all costs. If your screen is properly calibrated (which it is) and your printer profiles are good ones (which they are), then skip the steps 3 & 4 and optimize the image on the screen as you like it and then print. Do a small test please and let us know how it goes.

Regards,

Cem

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Hello guys.

Sorry for a late response - I haven't been around my computer lately.

I have looked into the matter closer and it might be that my monitor is showing to light image. I adjusted it with Gretagmacbeth Eye-One Display like I described in earlier post but when I compare a gretagmacbeth ColorChecker Color Rendition Chart to a digital version of the chart the images on screen look much lighter. I'm not sure what the next steps in tracking this matter is because I beleave that I have used the right tool and methods to adjust my monitor but it doesn't look right when compared to the color chart. It is a Dell 2405 24" lcd monitor. Does anybody have and idea which can help me solve this?

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net

[Asher Kelman]

Hello guys.
I compare a gretagmacbeth ColorChecker Color Rendition Chart to a digital version of the chart the images on screen look much lighter. I'm not sure what the next steps in tracking this matter is because I beleave that I have used the right tool and methods to adjust my monitor but it doesn't look right when compared to the color chart. It is a Dell 2405 24" lcd monitor. Does anybody have and idea which can help me solve this?

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net
I returned my Dell 24" LCD monitor because it was superbright and unstable after calibration.

It turns out that it is perfect for watching movies and for playing games but for this work, you need to decrease the luminence of the screen, or else do as I do, say it can't do the job I bought it for. now I reitrned my Dell 24" about 8 months ago. Since then, they may have improved. So take what I say with reserve unless some others can confirm that these problems still exist.

Asher

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Thanks for the reply Asher.

Yes, I have read some things on the net that the 24" Dell is not that great for photo editing, but I will stick with it until I can afford Apple Cinema 23" or something like that.

I'm starting to think that the problem is that 140 in Luminosity is to much for photo editing, because then the pictures will look darker on print and darker on other monitors. What do you think about that? The settings for my video card have a curves control to control the brightness so I could turn that down a little bit or turn down the red, green and blue colors in the OSD on the monitor to go down to 100 or 120 in luminosity - that would probably solve my problems.

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net

[Cem_Usakligil]

Thanks for the reply Asher.

Yes, I have read some things on the net that the 24" Dell is not that great for photo editing, but I will stick with it until I can afford Apple Cinema 23" or something like that.

I'm starting to think that the problem is that 140 in Luminosity is to much for photo editing, because then the pictures will look darker on print and darker on other monitors. What do you think about that? The settings for my video card have a curves control to control the brightness so I could turn that down a little bit or turn down the red, green and blue colors in the OSD on the monitor to go down to 100 or 120 in luminosity - that would probably solve my problems.

Regards,
Johann
http://gudbjargarson.net
Hi Johann,

I'm sorry but this is unfortunately not correct. Even if the luminosity is high on the monitor, this should not result in darker photos on print. I work with two siblings of the Dell 24", ie the 2005 FPW models. The luminosity is indeed high, but it has never created a problem as you've described. Besides, I have a few friends using the same Dell 24" with the high luminosity and there is no problem there either. Lastly, Apple Cinema 23" uses exactly the same LG panel like in Dell ones.

You do not mention whether you have done what I've recommended earlier, ie NOT doing soft proofing. Please do that first. Better yet, take a RAW file, open it in any converter using standard values, and print it from there directly onto your target paper/profile. See then if you still have the problem. If not, then there is a problem in your workflow. If yes, then the profiles are not correct.

Regards,

Cem

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Thanks Cem.

Yes, I have tried to print without softproofing with the same results (I didn't change much when soft proofing before because there wasn't that much difference). When I skipt the steps 3-4 I get almost the same results.

I have a ColorChecker Color Rendition Chart and after color profiling the digital version (http://www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/downloads/Macbeth_ColorChecker_ProPhoto.jpg.zip) of the chart seems a bit washed out and lighter than the chart itself which I have in my hand.

I'm starting to think that the Color correction device is faulty or something obvious I'm overlooking.

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Johann,

Why don't you do the following test:

Download a trial version of QIMAGE. Get hold of a standard print test image, which you can find in many places on the web. Print that image directly from QImage, assigning the appropriate paper types and print profiles. See what happens then. I think it really is worth trying, since it will tell us if there are any problems with your print profiles. If all's well in that area, then we can start eliminating other areas one by one :-).

Cheers,

Cem

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

Thank you Cem and I can really appreciate your help.

I will do this test tonight when I get home from work and will post how the test will go.

Thank you very much.

[Cem_Usakligil]

No thanks needed, I am just trying to help as much as I can :-).

Here is a possible tartget you can use for this test:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg.zip

Also, take a look around the Norman Koren's site, lots to be found there:
http://www.normankoren.com/printer_calibration.html

Cheers,

Cem

[Ray West]

Hi Johann,

It also depends on the light in which you are viewing the print. If the idea is to produce a print to be viewed in daylight, then you need either real daylight, or a suitable (not cheap) daylight lamp. Also, inkjet inks can take an hour or so to dry properly, I guess much more on blotting paper ;-).

I will not mention profile prism, I have got fed up with telling folk this is a reasonble priced system which sorts out all this stuff from the same guy who does qimage. It won't break the bank, and the quality you get is then completely up to you. (pc, not mac)

Soft proofing, afaik, is only any use for checking the size of the image ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

[Johann_Gudbjargarson]

I have printed out the test image in qimage using the printer profile. It comes out a little bit darker than the screen version but not much darker. I see the most difference in the macbeth colorchecker part of the image but the image is all a little bit darker but not dramatically. I think this is so close that I won't bother with trying to get a perfection because that could take a lot of time.

Does QImage provide better prints than Photoshop CS2 ?

[Don Lashier]

My setup (CRT, epson 2200) is different than yours but I'll make the following observations (most of which have already been made):
- I found VFA media setting too heavy/dark for most rag papers including HPR. For me watercolor/radiantwhite works much better.
- RC rendering will generally give a darker print than perceptual
- an overly bright monitor will result in dark prints, although this is not necessarily so as the really important point that leads you to adjustment is midtones not the hilights. For my CRT, luminance of 95 resulted in dark prints, 85 is spot on. For an LCD the workable value is higher for reasons I don't fully understand (probably midtone thing) but I frequently hear 120 mentioned as workable. The ideal setting also depends on your ambient light, more ambient requires a higher monitor luminance.
- Monitor/print matching is also highly dependent on your print viewing conditions. Ideally you have a print viewing booth with controlled luminosity and color temperature.
- Allow prints to dry a few hours or overnight before making critical judgments.

- DL

[Ray West]

Hi Johann,

I think you have to try it for yourself. The interface is a bit 'quirky', but imnsho, it goes way beyond cs2 for image quality. If you read the info, and do the test prints, etc, then you can understand how that can be wrt Epson printers. But the upsizing algorythm's beat the one or two in cs2 by far, if you let it trundle along at its highest settings. There are plenty of folk here who can help in its settings. The trial works good for trying it out, and you can print from it too. But get the profile prism software too, if you want to get your prints spot on to your monitor, it costs less than new Epson ink cartridges.

Best wishes,

Ray