2nd Try at Soccer C&C

[Warren Buchalter]

I gave my camera a workout yesterday. Kneeling on a foam pad was very uncomfortable. A folding chair like all the parents bring was much better. I started with center focus and without knowing it switched to all 9 focus points being active. I'm not sure if the helped or hurt me. It seems difficult to capture the action and keep the center focus point on the target to prevent back focus. BTW no PP or cropping was done to show the raw product. Thanks.

Warren

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/Soccer0001.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/Soccer0002.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/Soccer0003.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/Soccer0006.JPG

[Paul Barclay]

look pretty good to me-not crazy about the first shot but 2&3 look dead on.i think the last shot would be too with a different crop,and the girl seems a little OOF.what camera and lens?-paulb

[Warren Buchalter]

look pretty good to me-not crazy about the first shot but 2&3 look dead on.i think the last shot would be too with a different crop,and the girl seems a little OOF.what camera and lens?-paulb



Paul
Here is the picture cropped with the focus poinst on the picture. I'm using a 30D and 70-300IS

Warren

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/SoccerCrop0001.jpg

[Asher Kelman]

These pictures are wonderful and the children are precious. I hope you are selling the photos immediately. Are you, of not, make pamphlets and give cards with each shoot with a url to the days shoot online!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

Re the focus points, a central focus point will avoid taking to consideration the yurf and background.

Ask Nil, but to me at least, the center point and a stop down will get you closer to what you want.

Anyway, for these shots, you need a at least 4 feet of great focus. It's not in "inches"!

Asher

[Warren Buchalter]

Asher,

Nil recommends center point focus. I believe mine switched later in the shoot because I had set the 9 position switch on the 30D to change the focus points. When I reviewed the pictures I used the 9 position switch to move around in the photo and mistakenly change from center focus. I probably should remove that custom function.

I never considered selling the photos. I'm just an amateur relatively new to this level of photography. I was thinking of sending the coach some of the pics in a smaller size (email) to send to the appropriate parents. I had fun and was trying out some of the great tips Nil has shared. I took 787 shots and made a parent with a canon film camera and 70-200 F4 lens jealous. Thanks for the compliment.

Warren

[Asher Kelman]

Well Warren,

If you do get yourself a difficult goal and set it in your sites, then you can have a chance at it!

I'd press ahead with this. Get in with the coach. If you are a parent it's easier. If not, there are consent hurdles.

Asher

[Nill Toulme]

No stopping down! Wide open!

http://www.toulme.net/sports/aysa/iafc_u17_05-06/110605/051106-aysa17sg-002_std.jpg

More tomorrow. Just came home from team party for U-19 team that's been together for eight years and had its last match today. Party featured a 30-minute video retrospective of my shots of the team. Big hit, but I'm very sad and have had much wine.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[Warren Buchalter]

Well Warren,

If you do get yourself a difficult goal and set it in your sites, then you can have a chance at it!

I'd press ahead with this. Get in with the coach. If you are a parent it's easier. If not, there are consent hurdles.

Asher

One of the players is my niece and her parents couldn't make the game. Never thought about the consent issue. I believe if you photograph at a public facility and don't charge for the photographs you don't need permission.

[Warren Buchalter]

Nil,

Here is my version of your picture.

http://home.comcast.net/~wbuc/Soccer0004.JPG

[Asher Kelman]

One of the players is my niece and her parents couldn't make the game. Never thought about the consent issue. I believe if you photograph at a public facility and don't charge for the photographs you don't need permission.

Even if you charge, I don't think you need permission. Only thing is your pictures can't libel or damage the person and the text mus be honest!

Asher

[Aaron Strasburg]

Congratulations. I've now shot my girls 3rd soccer game, though the girls I've been shooting are a little older. I won't claim to be in Nill's league, but it's definitely fun trying.

Here's one from the last game. For this I borrowed a Canon 300 f/2.8L IS lens to stick on my 20D.
http://www.pbase.com/ats1911/image/70298087.jpg

That lens is way beyond my old Sigma 70-300, though I suspect your Canon 70-300 IS is as well. It's scary sharp and fast focusing. Of course it's 10x what I paid for my Sigma, too.... I've never gotten so many comments shooting anything as I did with what seemed like 40lbs of big, white L glass.

I always use the center focus point. The f/2.8 seems to help a lot as well as the 20D can then use its more accurate focusing mode.

#1 is so-so. 2&3 are great. 4 is definitely soft but I like the shot. Ain't that always the way?

Aaron

[Jim Kenny]

Warren ... Asher said something very important .....These pictures are wonderful and the children are precious. Consider trying to capture that ... instead of the trying to capture the intense competition and athletic ability.

Its ok to keep the shot count up but keep both eyes open and be aware of the emotion that is displayed so easily at this age ... just watch the kids come off the field and into there parents arms ... at this stage there KIDS first players second

Looking your version of Nill's picture ... i noticed how clean the background was compared to others ... I have not been at your local field ... but I have been there ! ... they can really pack a bunch of soccer pitches on top of each other when the kids are this small ... it makes clean background REALLY tough to get.

Looks like in # 2 you were standing up ... don't over look that technique ... it will help get rid of the clutter in the background if you shoot down on the players ... just stand on something very solid ... not the teams drink cooler : ) Remember you said it you can make the film guys jealous ... stand for some shots and sit for some experiment try different shots ... like the coach \ ref \ parent tieing the kids shoe on the field or the kid taking the shoe off ...

BTW did you get a good shot of the niece ?

Warren - are the players U9 ?
Aaron your players look maybe U12 ?

Nill just told us in not so many words "What a Long Strange Trip its been " ever wonder what kind of pic's Nill has of his kids from 8 years ago ? Maybe after couple glasses of water and a good nights rest we just might find out how good Nill's archive solution really is and how accessible that stuff is ...

Jim

[Aaron Strasburg]

Jim,

You're close on the age. Our friend's daughter is 13, I'm not exactly sure what the age range for this team is.

Backgrounds are a bear. Even with the 300 f/2.8 wide open it's tough at this facility to find a place with a clean background. There are nearly 2doz fields in the complex, so the odds that you can shoot in any direction without a parking lot, bleachers,... in the background aren't good. Photoshop is an option, but since these are basically giveaway shots for friends I'm not inclined to spend any more time unless someone comes back wanting prints, which I rather doubt.

Standing would indeed reduce the background issue but then you end up looking down on the kids. Can't win....

[Warren Buchalter]

Jim,

Thanks for the tips. The kids are 7 years old and I got some shots of my niece as well. #2 looks like I was standing up but I believe that I shot almost all the pictures of the kids kneeling on a foam mat. At 6'3" maybe I don't need a cooler to stand on for pictures of 7 year olds <G>. The field had 4 games going on at the same time but there was a fair amount of open space. Doesn't seem like you can completely control the backround when shooting as I didn't want to interfere with the coaches.

It may have to do with eye dominance but with both eyes open I can get a general overview of the action and ball location. Then zoom in tight and close the left eye and shoot away.

Aaron - I wish I knew someone that I could borrow a 300mm 2.8. I was pleased with the 70-300IS. It is difficult to keep center focus on the player, I guess if you crop tight and they fill the frame it's easier.

[Asher Kelman]

Warren,

The 300 f4IL I here is marvelous too! I found that the 2.8 was to heavy for me to hand-hold for extended periods. After a while I find it is a drag!

If there's no real need for the extra blur and light the f4 will work just fine!

Asher

[Warren Buchalter]

Jim,

Thanks for the tips. The kids are 7 years old and I got some shots of my niece as well. #2 looks like I was standing up but I believe that I shot almost all the pictures of the kids kneeling on a foam mat. At 6'3" maybe I don't need a cooler to stand on for pictures of 7 year olds <G>. The field had 4 games going on at the same time but there was a fair amount of open space. Doesn't seem like you can completely control the backround when shooting as I didn't want to interfere with the coaches.

It may have to do with eye dominance but with both eyes open I can get a general overview of the action and ball location. Then zoom in tight and close the left eye and shoot away.

Aaron - I wish I knew someone that I could borrow a 300mm 2.8. I was pleased with the 70-300IS. It is difficult to keep center focus on the player, I guess if you crop tight and they fill the frame it's easier.

[Aaron Strasburg]

The 300 f/2.8 is probably overkill for most of what we're likely to do shooting kids soccer. It's heavy and the hood makes for a heck of a sail if there's any wind. It's probably not easier to keep the center focus point on target than on a smaller, lighter lens. I was shooting from a monopod. I could not hand hold that lens for any length of time.

One of the absolute best features of that lens is how fast it focuses. It's absolutely amazing. The guy I borrowed it from said he's read that lens on a 1D-series body is the fastest focusing combo out there and I believe it. Being f/2.8 probably helps as it means that the 20D (and I believe the 30D) can use its more accurate focusing mode which is probably also faster.

I'd be curious to try the 300 f/4. For most uses it's probably a good compromise. Did I need to be able to shoot 1/2000 at ISO 100? Probably not. One advantage to the f/2.8 is that it will still autofocus on the 20D with a 2x teleconverter. Having a 300 f/2.8, a 420 f/4, and a 600 f/5.6 is a pretty good setup, especially as you're effectively pushing 1000mm on an APS-C body and can still use autofocus.

I've rented a 100-400 4.5-5.6L IS for an upcoming workshop, but I have no more soccer games to shoot. I'd like to have seen how that worked for sports. I bet it's pretty good. More flexible, not as fast but it's easy to jump to ISO 200. It focuses pretty quickly. Not as quickly as the 300 f/2.8, but pretty well. If I were doing more sports I'd have to seriously consider buying this lens. I may anyway....

[John Patrick]

Warren, instead of foam, invest in some good gel kneepads. You can get a decent pair for $10-$20 if you watch sales, otherwise $20-$30. Get the kind that have Velcro straps and not slip over your clothes.

Stay kneeling when you're shooting the little kids; I can easily tell on my shots when I was walking to a better spot, and stopped to shoot while still standing. The perspective really looks worse.

All of your images posted, Warren, look a bit soft to me; did you sharpen after downsizing?

Some of mine (since this is my first post):

http://www.teamsaber.com/photos/IMG_4633_edit_sm.jpg

http://www.teamsaber.com/photos/IMG_4584_edit_sm.jpg


John

[Warren Buchalter]

John,

I didn't do any pp to the images other than downsizing. Should images be sharpened when downsizing?

The knee pads may be a good recommendation. Do you stand straight up from your knees or sit on the back of your heels? I found both positions very fatiguing.

Your shots are great, what lens did you use. I bet is was a F2.8. Did you crop them?

[Nill Toulme]

Warren, my old knees don't take kindly to getting up and down. This folding three-legged swivel stool (http://www.mackspw.com/item.asp?id=&im=AMS829&d=Ameristep_Swivel_Tripod_Stool) works great for me. I've had any number of three-legged stools in the past, and the swivel feature of this one makes a huge difference in the long-term comfort. It's also height-adjustable, and it's held up find for about three seasons now... better than any of the non-swivel models I've had. Highly recommended.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[John Patrick]

Always run a quick sharpen with downsizing; it makes a world of difference.

As for kneeling, I do both kneeling straight up and leaning back on the heels. If it's uncomfortable, do a quick stretch before hands, or just slide to the side and sit on the ground.

Both of those shots were with the 300 f/4 L IS on a 20D. I'm not rich enough for a 2.8, yet.

John

[Jim Kenny]

Warren - My son is now in high school ... and I only have a 70-200 to shoot with at this time .. so I end up as close to the sideline as I can get ... with the bigger kids I find the knee pads are better because when the action comes my way when I get out of the way I do not have to worry about grabbing anything else to get out of the way .... player safety first ...

As for the kneeling position ... I do end up mixing it up a little ... The seat Nill suggests looks great I sure wish I had a longer lens so I could park my self a little farther off the line.

If anyone wants to "sponsor" me with a 400 2.8 I would be happy to put your name on the hood and pass out your business information : )

Jim

[Nill Toulme]

"Player safety?" Hah! It's photog safety I'm worried about. I rarely feel imperiled shooting soccer — although I came darn close to getting nailed head-on in the 400 at point-blank range in the playoffs last year, and the year before that almost got knocked cold by a fast-moving linesman when I wandered too close to the line myself. In the first instance my wife actually called me on the cellphone — not to ask if I was OK, but to ask if the camera was insured! :-(

But shooting football I often have to bail, and bail fast. And shooting b-ball, I just have to trust to luck and to the duck-and-cover they taught in grade school back in the 50's...

http://www.toulme.net/sports/woodward/basketball/varsity_boys_2007/111806_elanding/061118-wabb-098_std.jpg

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[Jim Kenny]

sigh ... Nill your seeing right through my bluff ! when the kids are smaller I am not scared of getting hurt ... now my son is bigger faster stronger ... I am scared of getting hurt.

The run hard and they don't always stop at the side or end line !

I guess the what i am trying to say ... is I do not want to trip over a chair or stool or anything else for that matter because when I want to get out of the way I am in a hurry and I will not be very graceful about it.

But it sound so much better when I say Player Safety : )

One shot that really makes me nervous is when I stand next to the goal post during warm ups and get shots of the ball coming head on. This fall season my son moved up to the varsity and I was not familiar with 3/4 of the team and I did not know how much of a loose canon they really had under there knee. But I always like the results that point of view will give me. And yes I did get beaned a couple times... I end up kinda hiding behind the side of the post and shoot and turn ... so I get it on the backside.

Warren, don't forget that part of the game..especially at that age group, just tell the coach what you want to do ... make his players look fabulous ! (opps there I go again)

[Nill Toulme]

...One shot that really makes me nervous is when I stand next to the goal post during warm ups and get shots of the ball coming head on. This fall season my son moved up to the varsity and I was not familiar with 3/4 of the team and I did not know how much of a loose canon they really had under there knee. But I always like the results that point of view will give me. And yes I did get beaned a couple times... I end up kinda hiding behind the side of the post and shoot and turn ... so I get it on the backside.
...

Hmmm... maybe a longer lens and stand farther back?

What scares me the most is baseball. I don't even go inside the fence for HS ball, just shoot right through it.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[Warren Buchalter]

Nill,

You shoot throught the chain linked fence? Do you crop out the fence when you PP?

Soccer season is over for these kids. The coach emailed me and said he hopes I can make it to a few games next year. I guess he enjoyed the pictures of his daughter that I emailed him.

My next project would be 13 year old girls basketball. I'm assuming the 70-300 4/5.6 would be useless there. My only other options are a sigma 17-70 2.8/4.5 or a 50mm 1.8 (probably the best option).

Where do you like to stand? Just to the side, under the basket?

Warren

[Nill Toulme]

Yes I shoot right through the fence. If you put a 400 f/2.8 right up against the fence and shoot it wide open, the fence just disappears. It doesn't work as well if you have to shoot obliquely through the fence rather than closer to a right angle, but even then the contrast just goes to hell, you still don't actually see the fence. It's magic. ;-)

http://www.toulme.net/sports/woodward/baseball/041306_haralsonco/060413-wabasebl-023_std.jpg


For basketball I like to sit right smack under the basket. My favorite lens there is the 50 on the 1.3x crop; on a 1.6x crop either the 50 or even the 35 f/2 will work well, or if there's a lot of light (i.e. a day game with lots of window light) you can even get away (barely) with something like the 24-70 f/2.8. Speaking of 13-year-old girls, this is my all-time favorite church league shot — I call it "Praying for a Rebound:"


http://www.toulme.net/glenn/basketball/29420.jpg

That was with the 24-70 on a 1-series body, and I'm sitting so close to the baseline that if I straighten my legs, my feet are inbounds.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

[Warren Buchalter]

Did you crop the baseball picture?
Do you sit on your stool for the basketball shot or stand?
Are you concerned about being run into under the basket? Do the coaches/players/refs mind?

Sounds like my 50mm 1.8 should fit the bill.

Thanks for you advice. Everyone in this forum is so helpful.

[Nill Toulme]

Did you crop the baseball picture?
Only the top, to cut it down from a 4x6 to a 5x7 ratio.

Do you sit on your stool for the basketball shot or stand?
On my butt on the floor.

Are you concerned about being run into under the basket?
Not by those little skinny girls. But when the big guys start coming down on me it gets pretty spooky sometimes.

http://www.toulme.net/sports/woodward/basketball/varsity_boys_2006/013106/060131-wabbvb-059_std.jpg

Do the coaches/players/refs mind?
No, but they all know me, which helps.

Sounds like my 50mm 1.8 should fit the bill.
It will definitely do the trick. Don't get frustrated when you miss on a lot of shots. That's going to happen no matter what. Just shoot a lot, and only show the good ones. ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net