Spanish Bullfighting (WARNING potentially offensive images)

[Ivan Garcia]

Sport, Art, or barbarity?
I took a series of images at a bullfight event last summer, I was a mere spectator, anchored down, without the benefit of free movement to find the best angles, and the fight took place at night with artificial lighting, presenting me with very challenging conditions to test my mantle.
Although I am against this kind of events, I approached it as I do with all my photo shoots, I just tried to do my best; however, I would like your opinion on this Spanish tradition.
(please do not edit)
http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4235.jpg
Image data
Canon 5D with 100-400L is @235mm
Hand held 1/100sec. @f/6.3
Iso 3200
WB@3200K
If popular enough, I will post a few more of this series once I get more time to work on them.

[Asher Kelman]

Ivan,

This is a great picture. It is difficult to compose when not able to move around. Still you have framed the action well. There are strong intersecting vertical and iagonal lines meeting in the red cloth. The fight is designed as a spectacle of grace, beauty in the face of brute stength.

It has color, verve, style and a millennium or more of culture embedded inside your photograph. You have captured all that. This picture can be blown up to billboard size and it would still work. Of course, there are real criticisms and things you might have like to get in the picture better than you have. You must have other images that you could use, if you wished to swop say a very sharp version of the red cloth, but with a fold blurred, to make the bull moving but not the cloth. However, I find it is satisfying as is and such variants are no criticism of what you have presented.

I would, if it is appropriate for me to suggest, blur the background, since it takes away from the picture. I might consider adding more light to the right side of his face and his back to increase his dimensionality. One could deblur with Focus Magic the red cloth if possible and sharpen along the bull's spine, since that provides a strong diagonal meeting the red.

What is that cloth called?

Thanks again Ivan for sharing this old Spanish tradition with us. It certainly keep the amount of blood spilled to a minimum and is not as bad as bombing the wrong country!

Is it any worse than shooting animals or hunting with a bow and arrow? Well only in the fact that it is designed to weaken the bull slowly and the bull suffers more perhaps. Still a wounded deer that gets away, dies like that too!

The bullfight is not really a fight!

The two didn't come to be contestants through some argument or agreed duel. No parking space was at risk nor a ladies honor or even a single barrel of oil!

It is rather a dance, a metaphor of the skilled erotic dancer, a beautiful gentleman facing a furious beast. It is thus ceremonial. Its origins therefore may be in pre-history!

All the parts, steps and stages are pre-arranged like a baptism, coronation or a seductive tryst.

All have their formulaic required steps and stages. We just look for the particular color, style, flair and nuances the officiants bring to the way things happen.

The what is pre-ordained.

Asher

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Asher.
Thank you for your comments.
Although I did not ask for it in this particular post, well thought critique, makes us better photographers/image manipulators, and it is always welcome. I did think of blurring the background myself, but, I am very busy with my business and application for my BA, so that version will have to wait.
My main aim here is to present a series of documentary pictures, to encourage discussion on this Spanish tradition.
The red cloth is called “Muleta” and the pink/yellow one “Capote”.
Both have predetermined moves, the fighter chooses which ones He will perform depending on how the bull takes the cloth, every bull has different characteristics, which the fighters (the good ones) adapt to in order to create a visually pleasing performance.
In the wild (as wild as they can get within the confines of the huge grounds they are kept in) if given the chance, the bull will rather run away from you that confront you.
It is only after several hours of cattle truck transport, in the hot Spanish summer sun, and without being given any food or water, that the bulls arrives at the fighting ring.
Once there, they are kept in the building “Corrales” were they go through a series of barbaric treatments to weaken them.
Sulphates are put in their water to induce diarrhoea, they are beaten repeatedly in their kidneys, testicles, and legs, sometimes so severely that the bull continuously losses his front legs during the fight, a substance is spread in the bedding that makes them itch so that the animal can’t keep still and is always on the move, Vaseline is rubbed on to their eyes to impede their vision, heavy weights are hung on their necks for hours, and their horns are sanded round, all of this, to protect the fighter.
Then, of course is on to the “Arena” were depending on how strong they arrive there, the fighter will instruct the horseman (Picador) the level of damage to inflict via his lance (puya) then he instructs his helpers (cuadrilla) which model of the fancifully decorated harpoons (“Banderillas”) with hooks up to 5 inches in length to use, depending on how well the picador has done his job, different Banderillas are used, their sole purpose to inflict even more damage and/or keep the wounds inflicted by the picador open so that the flow of blood is kept going, further weakening the animal.
Some fighters like to indulge in this part of the event themselves, with (sometimes) impressive displays that bring the crowds to frenzy.
By the time he picks up the red cloth, the bull is so week and has suffered so much damage, survival instincts is the only thing keeping him going.
(ps: why the double post?)

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Ivan for the education on the pre-fight "preparation" of the bull.

This for sure is a barbaric level of cruelty that is against all modern sense of decency. I'm disgusted that these procedures are even allowed in a country that moved away from the practices of the Inquisition. At least, in the latter barbarism, there was a delusional but wicked belief that conversions of Jews was required to get souls corrected as part of God's work. The belief still exists but today it's done by giving food and hospital care to the needy in poor communities. Even being Christian doesn't protect people from these modern, but still self rightiously delusional Inquisitors. Year round, Baptists, Evangelicals, Mormons, Anglicans and Catholics seduce poor Armenians Orthodox Christians or Christians in the African continent to their brand of their brandname, robbing cultures no different from genocides. This is cruelty little different than the dirty little secrets you expose behind bullfighting.

We should celebrate each persons Christianity, Islam, Judaism or what ever they value, as part of rich cultural heritages. None is more holy. God, I'm sure has many doors to enter mansions he might have in the cosmos!

Animals? We should treasure them. They too are precious heritages we can protect or hurt. Animals may need to be eaten but why torture them? Cruelty does not become modern man!

I find it hard to believe that a modern state in Europe would allow such cruelty to continue?

Well boxing is such a damaging sport, but there the players themselves choose to do this although IMHO, they too are misinformed and delusional!

This is way controversial I guess, but cruelty has no place for modern man striving to rise above the brutality of our ancestors!

Here, maybe we're preaching to the choir, but I feel better that you have exposed a beautiful but wrong ceremony which, IMHO, has outlived it's honored place in society.

Your photography does a good job!

Asher

I wish you could get behind the scenes!

[Will_Perlis]

What's interesting to me is the picture tells a story the exact opposite of the words. The picture makes me want to try it myself.

[Ray West]

Funny old world, isn't it?

[Ivan Garcia]

What's interesting to me is the picture tells a story the exact opposite of the words. The picture makes me want to try it myself.

And that what makes this so called art so attractive, it looks beautiful, although things not always go to plan.
This fighter was caught napping

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4254.jpg

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4255.jpg

Although He recovered quickly

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4257.jpg

And proved his bravery to the crowd

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4261.jpg

[Ivan Garcia]

His helper didn’t have an easy night neither

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4277.jpg

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4278.jpg

Not even the horseman was safe in this one

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4299.jpg

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_4301.jpg

Still want to do this?

Please forgive me for the quality of my PP, it has been done quickly to illustrate this thread, and not for display/printing purposes.

[Will_Perlis]

Ivan,

I've been riding motorcycles on the streets since 1975 so I'm probably as foolhardy as a matador. My MD thinks so. In any case, your pictures really do capture action well, there's just enough blur to show motion and not enough to have me cleaning my screen in a vain attempt to see better.

[Asher Kelman]

Kudos Ivan!

The blood on the men certainly makes it appear that he's at very great risk of dying. What is the mortality due to bull fights for the matadors?

Asher

[Ivan Garcia]

Thank you Asher and will for your comments.
The mortality rate for the Matador is not so high nowadays, Medical knowledge has improved over the years, and so wounds are dealt with efficiently, although, the danger of death still there if the bull damages a mayor artery like the femoral on the inside leg (a common injury for these fighters) and help does not arrive in time. The strength of these animals can be seen in the way the horse got knocked down (believe me the pictures don’t quiet illustrate how fast this happens), it is for this reason the bulls get the Pre-fight treatment.
In the old days, the bulls were what we call “enteros”, meaning they did not get the damaged prior to the fight and arrived on to the arena with full strength, so the death rate was, as you can imagine, much higher, averaging 6-7 per year, the horses also suffered severe casualties, for they did not have the protective mantle they have now , 8-9 horses would die in vain during the course of a fight, today those numbers are unheard of, although, broken ribs and other internal injuries still occur, ultimately ending with the horse being put down, in any case the horses rarely last more than 4-5 fights before their injury’s finally take their toll.

[Jeff O'Neil]

Ivan,

Thank you for such an eye opening series of photo's. I'm with Asher on this one. It's barbaric and done only for entertainment. I personally can't stand any abuse of any animal.

Your photo's do have a very gutsy emotional feel to them that I really like. Others with more experience then I will comment on verticals and intersecting lines..but I tend to look at the photo from a "what did it make me immediately think?" standpoint. In several of the last shots I was clearly rooting for the bull! All of them instantly made me recognize just how violent bull fighting really is. And given your explanations of the bull "pre-fight preparation" it's hardly a fair fight.

Only modern men will beat the living tar out of an animal and then challenge it to fight. How truly sad.

Very well done and the commentary was very enlightening.

Jeff

[Ivan Garcia]

Thank you Jeff.
I was rooting for the bull too, alas, the poor thing doesn’t have a chance; although sometimes they get pardon (a very rare event), very few survive their injuries.
There is some good news though, Barcelona has banned these events for good, and hopefully more cities will follow their lead.

[KrisCarnmarker]

Hi Ivan,

I'll join in on the praise for you image series and commentary.

This Spanish tradition is truly one of the strangest things in Europe today. How this can be allowed to continue is incomprehensible. IMO, Spain should not have been allowed to join the EU until this was abandoned. But then, the EU does not much care about animal rights, as can be seen by the lax rules on animal raising, transport and slaughter.

I was quite surprised to read your description of the "pre-flight preparations". Anyone seeing one of these bullfights can readily see that all is not right with the bull when it enters the arena. However, I have always thought that it was simply drugged. I have to admit finding out that this is not the case and that they are outright tortured has shook me. I was actually breaking a sweat from anger! What kind of person can do this to any creature? What has the bull done to deserve such treatment? And simply for entertainment!

I am pleased to read that Barcelona has banned these events. Good for them! Was this a popular decision or did it go against the will of the people? I'm also curious to know what the general feeling is towards bullfighting in Spain. Obviously there are plenty of people who enjoy the event, but would a hypothetical referendum be able to ban this across the nation?

What about the Portuguese style of bullfighting? I know they do not kill the bull, but if everything else is the same (e.g. the "pre flight"), then maybe the killing is just merciful.

[Ivan Garcia]

Hello Kris.
It is indeed a real shame on my country man to carry on with such atrocities.
Barcelona has made a bold move in banning this “sport” ; it was not a popular decision, there are a lot of people which are ignorant in the way these animals get treated.(I was one of them!)
I don’t think a referendum will go in favour of abolishing bullfighting; it is regarded as the national “sport”, and is imbedded in the national identity. Most of the people in favour of the event, argue that without it, the bull will simply cease to exist. Barcelona is trying to educate people in the fact that, Portuguese stile of bullfighting will still be allowed, this will not only keep people entertained, but It will allow breeders to make their profits, hence keeping the bull alive and kicking, a very cleaver move.
It may very well take several years, but none the less, this is IMHO, the way forwards, for us as human beings, and for the bull to survive.
I do not know if the Portuguese use the same Pre-fight treatment, I for one will hope not, I guess the best person to ask here will be Antonio.
Antonio, can you enlighten us in these matters?

[Antonio Correia]

I have written a lot of text and I lost it because I hit the Go Advanced button !!"!
Sheat !!!
The button send me log in when I was loged in.
You have to wait until I write it again.:((((((

[Asher Kelman]

I appreciate that these pictures were brought to us! We need to get doses of reality.

Asher

[Antonio Correia]

I have just talked to someone really connected with this business – it’s a business after all – and he told me that the question of it’s existence has been raised when Spain was about to come to the Community.
Then, France was already a member of the Community and the question of Spain has been talked in the European Parliament. As France had already this so called tradition, Spain was accepted without any type of restrictions on this matter.

He told me that today in Barcelona the case has been talked because there is – in his opinion – a left political party that is willing to chase the bullfight from Catalunha.

As you may know, Catalunha has some questions with Madrid regarding independence.
But I don’t know much more than this.

In France, he told me, bullfighting is restricted to an area of the country.

I would like to express my own opinion now.
I think bullfight is cruel and should not exist in spite of being a tradition. It was a tradition to give people to the lions and it is stopped.
Animals are badly treated even before going into the arena.
In Portugal there is only one place where they can kill animals. The question has been talked then but the Government legalized it.
Today the people from there say it was much more interesting when it was forbidden !!

I like to see – I am not going to a bullfight since I was 10, and I am 58 now – from what I watch on TV when I am zapping the man and the animal when he has the red blanket and dances with the animal.
That will give me very nice pictures when I’ll shoot a bullfight one of these days.

But when it will come the moment they hurt the animal I refuse to assist.

Maltreat animals is a problem Man will never solve, like wars will never stop as there will be financial interests in it.
Here is a picture of the transportation of an animal in Vietnam.
I have seen such scenes all over Indochina or Africa.

If Men don’t treat themselves correctly why should they treat animals differently ?

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/82514285-M.jpg

The animal here is alive !!!

[Antonio Correia]

Did you read my text ?
I'm asking myself why there are no comments ...
:)
and more arguing.
I'm sure there will be here persons liking such a spectacle !:)

[Will_Perlis]

"Sport, Art, or barbarity?"

Okay, I'll take the hook. I see no reason at all why the above categories are or should be mutually exclusive. Bullfighting is all three at the same time.

[Antonio Correia]

"Sport, Art, or barbarity?"

Okay, I'll take the hook. I see no reason at all why the above categories are or should be mutually exclusive. Bullfighting is all three at the same time.

Accept barbarity in Art or Sport ?
Any compatibility in this ? :(

[Will_Perlis]

"Accept" as in approve of, or "accept" as in seeing they can co-exist?

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/S/smith/smith_minamata.html

[Antonio Correia]

"Accept" as in approve of, or "accept" as in seeing they can co-exist?

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/S/smith/smith_minamata.html

I don't quite understand how Art and/or Sport can co-exist with Barbarity !...

Does it mean there can be Barbarity with Art ?
Or Art with Barbarity ?

:)

[Ivan Garcia]

I know this picture, I saw it in a life book of 20th century photography when I was 8 years old, (god time does fly doesn’t it) this is a mother giving her child a bath, which is severely deformed due to mercury poisoning (if memory serves me right that is). I believe it is regarded as Smith’s finest work.
I think what Will is trying to say is, that you can use Art to illustrate barbarity, Goya’s “The Third of May 1808: The Execution of the Defenders of Madrid” springs to mind as another example.

I can’t agree with this particular spectacle, there is something fundamentally wrong with humans torturing animals as an expression of their art. Althogh, as you can see in my photographs, I agree with the use of Art to denounce Barbarism,

[Asher Kelman]

Depraved performance can be entertaining. Tonight I walked out of "Princess Lea"'s performance recounting the drunken life of her mother Debbie Reynolds as well as her oown.

The audience laughed at each drunken episode described, each humiliation and drug overdose.

To me, this was sick voyeurism. People seem to get entertained by other people's entrails.

Maybe bullfighting is something like this.

Its a kind of voyeuristic sadism; a Maiyan sacrifice of humans, a crucifixion, causing both revulsion and worship at the same time, an irony that I have puzzled about.

But can it be art? Unfortunately, art is uncensored. It can be mundane, informative, political, holy or even evil. Yes art can have embodied in its form our worst motivations. And yes, it can be beautiful, as ballet can be beautiful with swaggering young men in the ring before crowds of thousands prance, strut and display their art their cruel.

Asher

[KrisCarnmarker]

Hi Antonio,

Thanks for enlightening us some more. I, for one, had no idea Portugal still allowed the killing of the bull (in some areas), or that France had bullfighting at all.

Unfortunately, I think you are right in that we will always have animal cruelty. People do the most horrible things to other people so it should be no surprise that they do the same to animals. Having said that, there is a difference, in my opinion, between a "psychopath" doing so and "normal" people doing it simply for entertainment. In this city where I live, there is a current fad amongst the bored youth. They will catch a stray kitten and drive down the highway. Then they will throw the kitten out the car window and take bets on how long it survives. A truly despicable act! It was headline news, and the police chief was quoted as saying this was illegal, but it was difficult to prosecute. This is of course BS, as there has been plenty of witnesses and photographic evidence.

There is nothing much I can do personally about bullfighting in Spain or the monsters of this city (I could go vigilante, but that would be suicide here), but if I may take the opportunity and remind everyone that there are organizations who do wonderful and effective work and need our support. One such organization is Animals Asia Foundation (http://www.animalsasia.org/), who have many programs, such as China Bear Rescue (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=2&menupos=7&lg=en) and Friends or Food (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=3&menupos=3&lg=en). I had ear-marked some money for a new camera this x-mas, but since there's was nothing new that I thought was worthwhile, I send it to AAF instead.

http://www.animalsasia.org/eng/template/template01/image0000001167.jpg
©Animals Asia Foundation
Bear on farm caged for 20 years

http://www.animalsasia.org/eng/template/template01/image0000001249.jpg
©Animals Asia Foundation
Waiting to be food

[John_Nevill]

Defending the Artiodactyla order.....

http://www.eospix.com/jlnimage/Bufallo.jpg

Split toned using ACR4 only!

[Asher Kelman]

I cannot imagine one iota of improvement!

How can anyone not show respect for such a creature!

Asher

[Ivan Garcia]

I like it john!!
It has a wonderful Christmas feel to it.

[Antonio Correia]

Hi Antonio,

Thanks for enlightening us some more. I, for one, had no idea Portugal still allowed the killing of the bull (in some areas), or that France had bullfighting at all.

Unfortunately, I think you are right in that we will always have animal cruelty. People do the most horrible things to other people so it should be no surprise that they do the same to animals. Having said that, there is a difference, in my opinion, between a "psychopath" doing so and "normal" people doing it simply for entertainment. In this city where I live, there is a current fad amongst the bored youth. They will catch a stray kitten and drive down the highway. Then they will throw the kitten out the car window and take bets on how long it survives. A truly despicable act! It was headline news, and the police chief was quoted as saying this was illegal, but it was difficult to prosecute. This is of course BS, as there has been plenty of witnesses and photographic evidence.

There is nothing much I can do personally about bullfighting in Spain or the monsters of this city (I could go vigilante, but that would be suicide here), but if I may take the opportunity and remind everyone that there are organizations who do wonderful and effective work and need our support. One such organization is Animals Asia Foundation (http://www.animalsasia.org/), who have many programs, such as China Bear Rescue (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=2&menupos=7&lg=en) and Friends or Food (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=3&menupos=3&lg=en). I had ear-marked some money for a new camera this x-mas, but since there's was nothing new that I thought was worthwhile, I send it to AAF instead.
©Animals Asia Foundation
Bear on farm caged for 20 years
©Animals Asia Foundation
Waiting to be food

Khris.
When people do such a thing to cats, there would be only one way to overcome the problem: examplar punishments.

What do I mean ? In certain countries of Indochina Peninsula, like Myanmar and Laos the traffic of drugs is punished by law with death. It is not human or correct to do it, just because they produce drug themselves :)...

But these people would need some punishment which would be an example for the others...

The question is that sooner or later, another comparaison would come up and the exemplar punishment would have no effect or would be very very argued.

In the States - and correct me if I am wrong - the possibility of having a gun is very large. I mean, it's easy to have a gun.

People who get guns easily are those who will kill humans later on very easily after a little training in the Army.

Of course, I am not accusing the USA of doing this because this is a transversal problem, it crosses the World.

Portugal had - before the 25th April - a group of young people who formed the basis of the future Army.
Like the Pioneers in the Soviet Union or the Germans during Hitler's rule.

I heard on the news yesterday that the Minister of Education of Spain - a woman - wanted the touradas with killing, to be discussed in the Parliament and that they should be like in Portugal: without the killing of the bull.
They said the problem was not about to be discussed until 2008 or 10.

Enough by now.

[Antonio Correia]

I know this picture, I saw it in a life book of 20th century photography when I was 8 years old, (god time does fly doesn’t it) this is a mother giving her child a bath, which is severely deformed due to mercury poisoning (if memory serves me right that is). I believe it is regarded as Smith’s finest work.
I think what Will is trying to say is, that you can use Art to illustrate barbarity, Goya’s “The Third of May 1808: The Execution of the Defenders of Madrid” springs to mind as another example.

I can’t agree with this particular spectacle, there is something fundamentally wrong with humans torturing animals as an expression of their art. Although, as you can see in my photographs, I agree with the use of Art to denounce Barbarism,

Now I understand the connection between Art and Barbarity. I mean, I understand what you are meaning...
But may be, there is a difference between an act of Barbarity expressly made - on purpose - and the documenting of an event after it happened and not meant.
I don't know if I made myself clear.

The Minamata tragedy - I knew it of course - is the translation on paper of something that happened.
It was not: It is going to happen so, let's take pictures (bullfighting).
It was: It happened so, lets take pictures (Minamata).

All this can produce works of Art if they are to be recognized by the Society.

On the other way there is a straight and strong connection between the essence of the picture and the picture itself.

There is also the problem of who proposes the photo: if it is a well known photographer or an anonymous one...

[Will_Perlis]

"It was not: It is going to happen so, let's take pictures (bullfighting).
It was: It happened so, lets take pictures (Minamata)."

But one of the hallmarks of a good photojournalist (or reporter) is knowing when something worth recording is *going* to happen. Obviously, that anticipation can't be 100% correct but very often signs and portents are available to a good observer.

One of the things that can turn an anonymous photographer into a well-known one is having that ability to be there when something interesting happens.

[Ivan Garcia]

Well, is that time of the year again and my yearly trip to Spain is eminent (leaving tomorrow afternoon).
I shall repeat my Bullfighting photography challenge, although this time I shall be armed with my new 1D MKIII, I will be hopping for and increased rate of in focus shots, (if my body does not suffer from any serious focusing issues that is).
I shall be posting the resulting images in this thread, on my return.

[Kathy Rappaport]

We are planning our short visit to Spain in November and what to do while we are there. I have seen enough here to know that there is absolutely no way I can ever go to a bullfight (not that I ever wanted to before).

What makes this really much different than slaugther of animals for food? My father and grandfathers (both maternal and paternal) were in the wholesale meat business. I, even as an adult, was never allowed in the slaughterhouse because of it's blood and gore.

Yet, this is different - probably because the animals are never humanely treated. In the US, there are/were laws prohibiting any torture of the animals - they must be killed humanely.

At least for food there is a purpose, but for sport - yes, it is barbaric. I could not go and support that on any level.

[Antonio Correia]

Well, is that time of the year again and my yearly trip to Spain is eminent (leaving tomorrow afternoon).
I shall repeat my Bullfighting photography challenge, although this time I shall be armed with my new 1D MKIII, I will be hopping for and increased rate of in focus shots, (if my body does not suffer from any serious focusing issues that is).
I shall be posting the resulting images in this thread, on my return.

I don't like bull fights myself but I hope to see nice pictures by Ivan.
:)

[Georg R. Baumann]

It is only after several hours of cattle truck transport, in the hot Spanish summer sun, and without being given any food or water, that the bulls arrives at the fighting ring.
Once there, they are kept in the building “Corrales” were they go through a series of barbaric treatments to weaken them.
Sulphates are put in their water to induce diarrhoea, they are beaten repeatedly in their kidneys, testicles, and legs, sometimes so severely that the bull continuously losses his front legs during the fight, a substance is spread in the bedding that makes them itch so that the animal can’t keep still and is always on the move, Vaseline is rubbed on to their eyes to impede their vision, heavy weights are hung on their necks for hours, and their horns are sanded round, all of this, to protect the fighter.

I never heard about that before.... I am speechless.

[Ivan Garcia]

Well, I am back from my yearly trip to Spain.
As usual I took some bullfighting shots.
This year I was armed with the awesome 1D MKIII. Some mixed feelings about this machine, but overall, miles ahead of anything I have previously owned, including the very capable EOS 1RS I owned several years ago.
I am most impressed by the incredible low noise at high ISO, I am finding (as you will see in some of the shots) that ISO 6400 is very usable indeed.
I have been investigating some claims offered by those opposed to bullfighting, specifically, I wanted to find out if the pre-fight abuse I reported last year was in fact true.
Sadly I have to report that the practice of pre-fight abuse has been confirmed. It is confined to minor festivities, with practically un-known fighters; it is however, none existent in major events.
I have arranged a tour for next year which will get me behind the scenes, I will report on my findings in this thread.

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0710_11X14.jpg

Mr Fandy in full flight.
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/160 sec, Av F/5
ISO 800, Canon 100-400mm L IS @120mm

[img]http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0916_11x14.jpg

Mr Manzanares .
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/6.3
ISO 6400, Canon 100-400mm L IS @180mm

[Antonio Correia]

Ivan, tell me: Do you like this bull fight "business" or do you just like to go and shoot ?
I have the possibility to shoot here in Portugal, but I have always refused because I am against bad treatment on animals, humans or not.
The abusive is done in Portugal as well, but I think, under a minor way.
Where are more photos of this savage "business" ?
I would like to see that. I think others will like it too.
Congrats for the MkIII !
Cheers. :)

[Ivan Garcia]

Ivan, tell me: Do you like this bull fight "business" or do you just like to go and shoot ?
I have the possibility to shoot here in Portugal, but I have always refused because I am against bad treatment on animals, humans or not.
The abusive is done in Portugal as well, but I think, under a minor way.
Where are more photos of this savage "business" ?
I would like to see that. I think others will like it too.
Congrats for the MkIII !
Cheers. :)

Hi Antonio.
I have mixed feelings about this particular "business".
In the one hand I am very much against the actual damage inflicted on to these beautiful animals, but, I must admit; I find these fights fascinating; I also enjoy shooting these events, it is a very challenging environment that pushes my skills, thus making me a better photographer.
If you have the chance to attend and shoot one of these fights; don’t hesitate, just do it.
More pictures will follow.
http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0546_11x14.jpg
"El Cid"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/200 sec, Av F/5
ISO 800, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 160mm

[Ivan Garcia]

As promised
Moe pictures.
This ones concentrate more in the damage this animals suffer; which ultimately lead to death.

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0733_11x14.jpg
“El Fandi”
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/125 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 800, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 100mm


http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0773_11x14.jpg
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 250mm



http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0844_11x14.jpg
"El Fandi"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/320 sec, Av F/6.3
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 200mm

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0961_11x14.jpg
"Jose Maria Manzanares"
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 190mm

[Ivan Garcia]

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0963_11x14.jpg
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/200 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 275mm

http://www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/IGD_0964_11x14.jpg
Canon EOS 1D Mark III
Tv 1/250 sec, Av F/5.6
ISO 6400, Canon 100/400mm L IS @ 275mm

[Nicolas Claris]

The only thank we can tell is to the photographer who reports such an integral HORROR in 2007.

Should this help to have this kind of man's beast behavior to be forbidden for ever and those who practice been punished. For me, porn is not worth :-(

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Nicolas.
Thank you for your praise in my work.
The last two pictures put a knot in my throat, I nearly cried as I watched this animal die. His lounges punctured by the sword, he took the best part of two minutes to die, blood pouring out of his mouth.
The chances of these events being outlawed are very slim; this event was completely sold out.
The European government has laws against this kind of animal torture, but the Spanish breeders are trying to pass a clause which will enable them to continue with this blood savagery.
As I have reported in previous post, there is some good news, Barcelona has banned the events and more cities are following that example.
I must say, I doubt the south of Spain will follow that rote; Bullfighting is very much embedded in their culture, and together with sherry production, and the olive oil industry; Bull breeding and fighting, is a major contributor in that part of my country economy.

Still, Next year I am planning to get behind the scenes, maybe getting access to the reported torture these animals suffer in the “pre-fight” treatment.

I may need a small innocuous camera for that, as my 5D and 1DIII are going to arouse suspicion. Maybe If I manage to get proper photographic evidence of the atrocities, the government will take action and ban these events forever.

[Nicolas Claris]

Thanks Ivan for your assesment, I must say that this does occur in South of France too, they argue that this is part of the country's tradition…
Sometimes I do hate traditions (in fact most of the times!) Traditions are pulling us back, not forward…

Please continue your good work, at the end it can only pays (to ban corridas)

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Nicolas.
I am all for the banning of the damage they inflict upon these poor animals.
However, I have to admit, that I find the “dance” fighter and bull perform fascinating, is the torture and eventual killing of the bull I am against.
If only they could find a good compromise, ie: perform the beautiful dance without inflicting any kind of damage on to the bull.
Doing so, will allow for the “traditionalist” to have their events, the fighters will have no need to find alternative employment, the economies will no suffer, and the professional photographers who specialize in these events, can continue taking pictures so they can make a living; to me, that will be the ideal solution.
If this compromise can not be reached, then I will rather have the whole event banned, The bull, IMHO, has rights.

[Nicolas Claris]

I fully agree with you…

[Georg R. Baumann]

To inflict pain and ulltimately death on another creature for "entertainment" is a condition as serious as cancer and can be witnessed amongst many cultures in various phenomenon forms unfortunately.

I hope there will be a day where respect for all creation is the common sense that drives cultures development rather than greed and destruction.

Call me a dreamer.... I sign it!

[John Hollenberg]

I can think of no better antidote to the "illness" of bullfighting than your pictures and commentary. Having never been to a bullfight, both forms of communication certainly opened my eyes.

--John

[Ivan Garcia]

We are planning our short visit to Spain in November and what to do while we are there. I have seen enough here to know that there is absolutely no way I can ever go to a bullfight (not that I ever wanted to before).

What makes this really much different than slaugther of animals for food? My father and grandfathers (both maternal and paternal) were in the wholesale meat business. I, even as an adult, was never allowed in the slaughterhouse because of it's blood and gore.

Yet, this is different - probably because the animals are never humanely treated. In the US, there are/were laws prohibiting any torture of the animals - they must be killed humanely.

At least for food there is a purpose, but for sport - yes, it is barbaric. I could not go and support that on any level.

Well I am not surprised that even today you are not allowed to enter the slaughterhouse of your family business.
You more than likely to see something like this WARNING!!!! EXTREME VIDEO OF CATTLE BEING SLAUGHTERED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Click at your own risk "Kosher" Slaughter at AgriProcessors (http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=agri_short)
Compared with this practice … Spanish bullfighting seems even charitable to the animal (not that I am commending it neither)
A 40 minute version of that movie can be found "HERE" (http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=agri_long)
The full PETA investigation can be found HERE (http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/)

[Georg R. Baumann]

This is an interesting twist.

Isn't it strange how we became detached from what we consume to surrvive? I remember a friend of mine who was raised in the city and who visited me at the age of 24 in my place in Belgium, a rural place where all kind of animals belonged to the daily life.

I greeted him at the entry to the driveway as I was coming back from a walk with my dogs when he stoped his Porsche to say Hello.

To the left was a meadow with horses and to the right a flock of may be 100 sheep.

His first reaction was "Wow! You have real goats here!"

I could not stop laughing for the better part of 10 minutes or so when I figured he really meant it.

The Mega business of food production and the unfair treatment of the producers has come to public mind in the past few years. Too little too late? I am afraid so. Now we even face gene manipulated crops that fill our plates.

When I go shopping in our local store here in Ireland it reads like: Basil from Israel, Green Beans from Kenia, New potatoas from Marocco, and so on, all stuff that can be easily produced locally, but only recently consumers became aware about the tragedy behind this.

"Where do Burgers come from Daddy?"
"From Mc Donalds, why?"

I think our relationship to food has become somewhat perverted. May be the obesity problem is one result of this perversion. I was raised in a time where double fat cheese and 3 times meat a day was considered healthy and a must have. Understandably, the after WWII generation had a lot to catch up.

I think it should be part of education to teach children more about food and how the reality of the production cycles are these days, as cruel as it is, no pink glasses please, just the reality of our ways to distribute and manage food. May be this would change a little in the future?

[KrisCarnmarker]

Of course, Bullfighting is not the only form of animal cruelty. All you have to do is watch the various Animal Planet shows about "animal police" to see that animal cruelty is widespread. Sometimes it is simply a lack of understanding, sometimes it is completely intentional.

The detestable slaughtering methods that some companies employ is just another example of how low some people have stooped. And it's doesn't start there! The transportation of animals to the slaughterhouse can be so bad that death for the poor animal must be welcomed by them. The EU has laws against improper transportation and slaughter of animals. But there doesn't seem to be any enforcement, much less any prosecution.

Having said all that, there is a difference between these abhorrent practices and Bullfighting. Bullfighting is for entertainment! The only entertainment in Spanish Bullfighting is when the matador gets gutted by the bull. Unfortunately, the matador usually doesn't die.

[Ivan Garcia]

Of course, Bullfighting is not the only form of animal cruelty. All you have to do is watch the various Animal Planet shows about "animal police" to see that animal cruelty is widespread. Sometimes it is simply a lack of understanding, sometimes it is completely intentional.

The detestable slaughtering methods that some companies employ is just another example of how low some people have stooped. And it's doesn't start there! The transportation of animals to the slaughterhouse can be so bad that death for the poor animal must be welcomed by them. The EU has laws against improper transportation and slaughter of animals. But there doesn't seem to be any enforcement, much less any prosecution.

Having said all that, there is a difference between these abhorrent practices and Bullfighting. Bullfighting is for entertainment! The only entertainment in Spanish Bullfighting is when the matador gets gutted by the bull. Unfortunately, the matador usually doesn't die.

Well, not quiet.
Although Bullfighting is done for entertainment, after the “show”, the Bull finds its way on to the food Chain; even the head finds a proud place for display on the walls of the many restaurants and bars surrounding the bullrings.

[Ray West]

Hi Ivan,

I was going to ask what happened to the carcass - I expect it is tough as old boots. It used to be, that in the larger slaughter houses, the cattle were injected with a 'relaxant'. Tensed up meat is pretty tough, after travelling the miles the have to, after the smaller local slaughter houses were closed down, the cattle were pretty stressed. None of the liver was of use - turned to green mush. The local 'one man' slaughter house, he kept the animal for a day, quietened down naturally, meat tender, all edible. Places long closed, thanks to eec regs. Because of the large scale/long distance animal movements, within the uk, it plays right into the eec wishes, who want to completely dismantle the agricultural industry of the UK. I am of the opinion that very few people understand much about anything food wise, just the lies that the large processors/retailers tell them.

A few years ago, we banned hunting with dogs - fox hunting/ stag hunting etc. Far from a mass spectator sport, but very much a countryside tradition, of great religious importance - pictures on Christmas cards ;-), etc. I'm sure Spain could sort out bull fighting, if they had the will to get into the 21st century.

Best wishes,

Ray

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Ray
Sorry it took so long to answer.
The meet is used mostly in stews, so you must be right, tough as nails.
Although I don’t know this to be true, I will also venture to guess, most of these animals end up in the pet food industry, and as feed for the many predators kept in zoos, I’ll make some enquires to find out.

[Annie James]

Sport Art or Barbarity? Ohh lets have a little thinkeepooh, um, I'd say Barbarity. People say ' Oh but it's a cultural thing' well, so is female circumsicion in some countries, does that make it less Barbaric? It's a damn damn shame that these bullfighters are so gorgeous, makes it much more difficult for me to be ethical!

[Antonio Correia]

Sport Art or Barbarity? Ohh lets have a little thinkeepooh, um, I'd say Barbarity. People say ' Oh but it's a cultural thing' well, so is female circumsicion in some countries, does that make it less Barbaric? It's a damn damn shame that these bullfighters are so gorgeous, makes it much more difficult for me to be ethical!


ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I TOTTALY AGREE !

[Nicolas Claris]

Hey Antonio

Good to hear again from you! I hope all is well for you…
How is Portugal these days (OK, let's forget Rugby;-)

[Antonio Correia]

Hey Antonio

Good to hear again from you! I hope all is well for you…
How is Portugal these days (OK, let's forget Rugby;-)

Nikolas. Good evening.
Everything is fine with me thank you.
To be honest I like best to be in foruns less aggressive for my eyes !...
This white bluish kills me. :)
A shame for me.

May be you would like to have a look at my pictures I shot lately on plains.
For the time beeing they are here (http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/gallery/1587711#199933022)

I work in a place called Moita. They do bull fighting and at the table in the canteen at lunch time we - my friends and myself - always talk bad things about this activity.

But it is very popular and the communist party is ruling the Town hall. They could never banish such activity because they would have not the guts and would lose many votes. It would be a disgrace for them. (This would not be a bad thing)

But I have promised that next year I will shoot a bull fight.
And this puts a question to my mind immediate: How to shoot something we don't like and how to transmit that feeling ?

I post here a picture I shot there the other day when they have done a "largada". They live the bull in the street and let him run loose.
Look at the face of this woman. She is impressed with so much savageness. (does this world exist at all ?)
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/195871275-M.jpg

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Antonio.
You need to approach these events as you would any other photo shoot.
Do it justice, and don´t just take biased shots.
That woman looks like she has just seen her partner with another...I wouldn´t dare to show her that shot though... I don´t want to die young lol.

[Antonio Correia]

... That woman looks like she has just seen her partner with another...I wouldn´t dare to show her that shot though... I don´t want to die young lol.

Neither do I !!! :)

[Asher Kelman]

So what happened this year?

I gather that people against this were going to have another "running of the ****s" this year! Talk about blood sport; this, in itself, would seem to be a blood sport as photographers beat each other with tripods to get a good photography position!

Also, I hear that they have brought back a famous bullfighter out of retirement to fight back to build up the waing support for the "sport" in Spain.

Asher

[Antonio Correia]

I started this year project:
Photograph bull fighting in Moita, Portugal.
This is to begin with
http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/282989894_rnJv2-M-1.jpg . http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/282201643_Ef6Dx-L-1.jpg . http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/280453908_ZW2eZ-M-6.jpg . http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/282960225_c4ua8-M-1.jpg

[Antonio Correia]

And the last one, this is a clip. Click on it please and you will see a small film of the shooting.

http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/photos/280416262_fnXGK-L.jpg (http://antoniocorreia.smugmug.com/gallery/1587711#280416262_fnXGK-A-LB)

[Asher Kelman]

Well, Ivan,

Read this

"The grey Spanish bull, said to weigh almost half a ton, had just entered the ring for the second contest of the last night of the annual Carcassonne bull-fighting festival. In other words, the animal had not yet been crippled and weakened by having spears thrust into its neck and shoulders by picadors, the horse-borne bull-fighters.

Witnesses said that there was panic when the bull charged into the protected corridor for the first time, slightly injuring Mr Baile. Someone had the presence of mind to open a gate to allow the bull to escape back into the ring. But before anyone could stop it, the animal forced its way back into the protected perimeter of the ring, goring Mr Baile severely as he lay on the ground.

Bullfighting in the Spanish style, to the death of the bull (La Corrida) is technically illegal in France but permitted in areas which have an "unbroken" local tradition. This exception to the law has been interpreted broadly by French courts which have allowed bullfighting to be reintroduced to several towns in the souh west in the last two decades. One of these towns is Carcassonne, where Mr Baile was one of the leading figures in the revival of bullfighting 10 years ago." Read the rest here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bullfighting-umpire-gored-in-safety-zone-1777219.html)

That's justice or a freak accident?

Asher

[Will_Perlis]

A still active almost two year old thread! Amazing!

Given I've learned something about food production and "factory farming", along with looking at the statistics for dogs and cats killed per year at animal control facilities in the US, I'm not so sure I can get terribly upset at a pampered bull having one hell of a few days at the office and then dying.

Barbaric? Yes. Horrible compared to our civilized business as usual? I don't particularly think so.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

A still active almost two year old thread! Amazing!

Given I've learned something about food production and "factory farming", along with looking at the statistics for dogs and cats killed per year at animal control facilities in the US, I'm not so sure I can get terribly upset at a pampered bull having one hell of a few days at the office and then dying.

Barbaric? Yes. Horrible compared to our civilized business as usual? I don't particularly think so.

Do two wrongs make one right? Don't think so!
Because one thing is relatively less barbaric, does it make it allright?

I'm not insensitive to the cultural aspects, and I can also appreciate some of the beauty that's there as well, but that doesn't make it an acceptable practice in this time and age anymore, IMHO.
And while there is still a lot to be improved in how we treat animals, even the ones bred for consumption, things do improve due to common sense slowly prevailing.

So, when a bull tries to gets even with with his exploiters of sensation, I applaud the bull. When a photographer captures the event for the gracious aspects of the event, I have no problem with that either. When it's all about glorifying the slow killing aspect, I do have a problem with that.

Bart

[Leonardo Boher]

Cruelty is not a virtue. It enhances the basic instinct of the ego. Just people that ignore better stuff can feel joy with this tradition. It's like drinking 1 dollar wine and 100 dollars wine or like reading tabloids or some book by Stephen Hawkings. Each level of knowledge demands pelasure proportionally to the level of that knowledge and trying to put the 'knowledge' and 'ignorance' meaning beyond the traditional definiton of 'lack of culture' or 'lack of external knowledge'. We can know the external world or we can know our internal world and somehow, it's more valuable for occident knowing the external world. We know everything but from the flesh and out and nothing about the spirit. We should be more self-aware meaning we should know more about our selves, our psychology/behaviors, then about the others in order to understand why people do this or that, in this case, why people feel joy with cruelty. We also should know what's 'joy', then what's 'cruelty' and how that interacts with our ego and nervous system, etc.

[Asher Kelman]

We can know the external world or we can know our internal world and somehow, it's more valuable for occident knowing the external world. We know everything but from the flesh and out and nothing about the spirit.

I doubt this is really true! There's a belief that Eastern cultures are more spiritual, but I doubt that. It's just a romantic point of view and I suspect it would be hard to prove and greater interest ins spirituality from one religion to another.

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

Back to bullfights. It is cruel. We have no need to be cruel to animals for either our survival or pleasure. Only the beasts have the right to rip creatures flesh while alive. We are made as animals but our culture gives us values which asks more of us.

Asher

[Ivan Garcia]

It is official. Barcelona has voted to ban Bullfighting from 2012.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10784611

[Asher Kelman]

It is official. Barcelona has voted to ban Bullfighting from 2012.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10784611

Ivan,

You pictures may well become the last and the best of this beautiful butchery in pageant, pretending to be sport!

Asher

P.S. hope you might be able to fix the links to you pictures! If you send me the new URL's I'll replace them all! These are so important!

[Antonio Correia]

It is official. Barcelona has voted to ban Bullfighting from 2012.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10784611

Great. I hope they succeed ! :)

[charlotte thompson]

Wow
I really would have loved to see those pictures!

Charlotte-
ps- why are they gone?

[Asher Kelman]

Charlotte,

Ivan will repost. It's one of those things that one puts off: redoing old image catalogs then forgetting about posts depending on the old version then promising oneself to correct everything, then someone steals your motorbike and it goes on!! Broken links are a real PIA!

Asher

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi Charlotte / Asher.
I been meaning to send Asher the new address for the images. Alas, I am incredibly busy and I struggle to find time for family and friends... more so, for my forum friends. I can only apologize it has taken me so long to update forum image links..
Asher you may want to star editing the links to www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/(image name here).
Again my sincere apologies, I am just so terribly busy.

[Nicolas Claris]

Hi Charlotte / Asher.
I been meaning to send Asher the new address for the images. Alas, I am incredibly busy and I struggle to find time for family and friends... more so, for my forum friends. I can only apologize it has taken me so long to update forum image links..
Asher you may want to star editing the links to www.igdimages.co.uk/bulls/(image name here).
Again my sincere apologies, I am just so terribly busy.

Hi Ivan
Your first post is now edited so everyone can see your images…

BTW glad to hear you're so busy! I hope this is because of photo works!

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Ivan
Your first post is now edited so everyone can see your images…

BTW glad to hear you're so busy! I hope this is because of photo works!

Nicolas,

It still is broken, even after clearing the browser cache. The link by itself gos to "Forbidden"!

Good try!

Asher

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Nicolas,

It still is broken, even after clearing the browser cache. The link by itself gos to "Forbidden"!

Good try!

Asher

Links to Ivan's images have now been fixed.

Cheers,
Bart

[Ivan Garcia]

Hello all.
Thank you for fixing the links. Again, I am ever so sorry it me so long to update things.
@ Nicolas, Yes my photography has really taken off, to the point I am unable to even keep my site up to date with my latest work. In any case, these days commissions comes through word of mouth and repeat business so, the site has become kind of redundant.
Wishing you all the very best on your endeavours.
Until next time
Ivan
Ps I am humbled and grateful that, even after 5 years, you guys still enjoy these images. I like to extend you all my sincere gratitude for your continuous support.