Looking for a new camera

Hello all

I am planning to get a new camera which must be completely silent.

1. It can't make a sound when taking a photography. It is to be used in situations where the description is essential like street photography or inside a house.

2. On the other hand it must be portable, light and rather small. Something to carry around all day without no pains in the back or arm

3. Excellent image quality

4. Great dynamic range.

5. Interchangeable lenses.

6. RAW capability.

At first I looked for the Sony Nex-7 which has a nice price. Then I found this. Panasonic looks pretty good also.

Any tips please? Thank you

Antonio. Message Cem Usakligil. I know he uses the Sony and I think he likes it. He's been using it for quite a while now and would be able to give you more specifics, I'm sure. I wish I could help otherwise, but sadly, unable.
Good luck with your purchase,
Maggie

If the camera must be completely silent, you will not find a model with interchangeable lenses. So: how silent must it really be?

The Sony NEX-7 is fairly quiet, but the shutter can be heard. Its sound level is roughly comparable to Canon APS-C DSLRs. Only cameras with leaf shutters can be described as "completely silent", e.g. Sony RX-1 or RX-100.

Antonio,

I wish you didn't demand one camera! I have silent cameras. I carry two, each has superb optics. I have the Ricoh GR with a fine 21mm add-on lens and a GXR with the 50mm Macro lens, a gem. Each can be set up to do 3 pictures with one shutter release and get 3 exposure bracketed mages. The cameras are perfect for street and classical music concerts where any click is a terrible intrusion. These cameras are silent!

I also could have gotten the 28mm module for the GXR, but with the GR, it was not needed. I do have 24-70 and the tele zoom for the GXR but don't use them.

You will get a slightly greater dynamic range with the two choices you have, but not better pictures! This grab portrait was taken with the Ricoh GR!

Asher

@ Maggie
Thank you Maggie. I will do so.

@ Jerome
Perhaps I am too demanding saying it is completely silent. It can make a sound but a very quiet one. It should be very discreet, not only in the sound itself but also at sight.
Thank you Jerome

Shutter sound for Sony NEX-7

Asher Kelman said:

Antonio, I wish you didn't demand one camera! I have silent cameras. I carry two, each has superb optics. I have the Ricoh GR with a fine 21mm add-on lens and a GXR with the 50mm Macro lens, a gem. Each can be set up to do 3 pictures with one shutter release and get 3 exposure bracketed mages. The cameras are perfect for street and classical music concerts where any click is a terrible intrusion. These cameras are silent! I also could have gotten the 28mm module for the GXR, but with the GR, it was not needed. I do have 24-70 and the tele zoom for the GXR but don't use them. You will get a slightly greater dynamic range with the two choices you have, but not better pictures! This grab portrait was taken with the Ricoh GR! Asher

Click to expand...

Thank you Asher.

The thing is that yesterday I have been in Lisbon - maybe I will post one or two images later on - and I have a paint in my arm today. I was holding the 5D with the 24-70. I am getting old... well I am old that is a fact.

I noticed that many people were looking at me when I was holding the camera and shooting. I do not like that. I would like to have something lighter and more quiet.

I do not mind people looking at me but rather them changing their attitude because they have a camera pointed at their confort zone.

It is true that I have a Canon G9 which I do not like. The dynamic range is a shame when compared to the also old - some 8 years old - Sony now stored in the drawer.

Jerome Marot said:

If the camera must be completely silent, you will not find a model with interchangeable lenses. So: how silent must it really be?

The Sony NEX-7 is fairly quiet, but the shutter can be heard. Its sound level is roughly comparable to Canon APS-C DSLRs. Only cameras with leaf shutters can be described as "completely silent", e.g. Sony RX-1 or RX-100.

Click to expand...

I have thought I'd like a completely silent shutter on my camera in the past - but something that you may want to consider is - how can you tell when you've taken the photo if you can't hear the shutter? Personally I had never thought of that until someone brought it to my attention. As it is - with my wife's iPad, I end up pressing the shutter several times without knowing it - she gets so ticked at me for that.

And as Jerome has mentioned - only small sensor point and shoot cameras have the option of not using a shutter. But even then, they generally add a digital clicking sound so that you know when you've taken the picture.


As for cameras - - - I have been using micro 4/3 sized sensor cameras for probably 3 years now, and am totally convinced of their ability. A huge advantage of the Panasonic GX7 over the Sony, is the number of lenses available for the micro 4/3 bodies. And blazing fast and accurate autofocus as well - for some reason, Sony and Fuji are no where near Panasonic and Olympus when it comes to Contrast Detect Auto Focus speed.


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Antonio Correia said:

Perhaps I am too demanding saying it is completely silent. It can make a sound but a very quiet one. It should be very discreet, not only in the sound itself but also at sight.

Click to expand...

The Oktoberfest pictures in that thread were taken with the NEX-7. It was discreet enough for that occasion.

If I may: your questions are reasonable, but do not tell the whole story. You want to take pictures of people in the streets, discreetly. Any camera can do that. But, taking the NEX-7 and GX7 which you gave as an example, the GX7 is less discreet (because of its silver colour...) but has a very useful stabilisation and tilting viewfinder. The available lenses choices are very different (the GX7 can also use the Olympus lenses). All these things will make a lot of difference in practice...

The NEX-7 and GX7 have an electronic viewfinder. I suppose that you want that feature?

Robert Watcher said:

I have thought I'd like a completely silent shutter on my camera in the past - but something that you may want to consider is - how can you tell when you've taken the photo if you can't hear the shutter?

Click to expand...

I feel the detent on the shutter button. That is the difference with the iPad.

And as Jerome has mentioned - only small sensor point and shoot cameras have the option of not using a shutter.

Click to expand...

The RX-1 has a 24x36mm sensor and is silent enough to be used in concert halls.

But even then, they generally add a digital clicking sound so that you know when you've taken the picture.

Click to expand...

You can turn that off, thankfully.

Robert Watcher said:

As for cameras - - - I have been using micro 4/3 sized sensor cameras for probably 3 years now, and am totally convinced of their ability. A huge advantage of the Panasonic GX7 over the Sony, is the number of lenses available for the micro 4/3 bodies. And blazing fast and accurate autofocus as well - for some reason, Sony and Fuji are no where near Panasonic and Olympus when it comes to Contrast Detect Auto Focus speed.


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Click to expand...

If the 4/3 works, then for sure APS-C is going to be superior. Also the shutter of the Ricoh GR is silent and reliable. Three images instantly appear on the back with each shot taken, so one has visual feedback, if that's needed. I've never missed a picture in thousands of shots. Same with the Ricoh GXR with the 50mm lens module.

It's so light and simple but solid! Try one and then no one will be able to rip it out of your hands, even when you are asleep, LOL!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

If the 4/3 works, then for sure APS-C is going to be superior.

Click to expand...

Quite frankly, the differences between 4/3 and APS-C sensor size are inconsequential for the final pictures. They can be measured and probably show when peeping pixels, but they have little practical consequences.

In my experience, there are only the following classes of cameras:

-small sensor (anything measured in inverse fraction of inches)

-middle sensor ( 4/3 and APS-C)

-so-called "full frame"

-even bigger than that (usually film...).

A few cameras are in-between classes, like the Nikon V system / Sony RX100 (almost as good as "middle sensor"). The RX100 may actually be what Antonio needs, BTW (especially in its rumoured third iteration with a faster lens and built-in viewfinder).

Asher Kelman said:

If the 4/3 works, then for sure APS-C is going to be superior. Also the shutter of the Ricoh GR is silent and reliable. Three images instantly appear on the back with each shot taken, so one has visual feedback, if that's needed. I've never missed a picture in thousands of shots. Same with the Ricoh GXR with the 50mm lens module.

It's so light and simple but solid! Try one and then no one will be able to rip it out of your hands, even when you are asleep, LOL!

Asher

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the Ricoh is a great camera. Just stating what I use. The Panasonic GX7 is really nice with the built in EVF if that is important. For me, it isn't.

As for superiority of APS-C sensor when comparing to Micro 4/3 - - - there used to be a gap, but that has been closed and even bettered in some of the latest Micro 4/3 offerings.


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I got Anne to grab a few shots of me in shooting mode here in Nicaragua - - - I love my black shoulder bag and use it to soften what I am doing even more.

The left and top left images I have the 28-84mm equivalent lens on (14-42) - the others are with believe it or not, an 80-300mm equivalent lens attached (40-150). Image top right shows it extended to the 300mm position. Bottom right image shows how I commonly shoot - looking down into the tilted screen. Hardly intimidating is it.






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Jerome Marot said:

Quite frankly, the differences between 4/3 and APS-C sensor size are inconsequential for the final pictures. They can be measured and probably show when peeping pixels, but they have little practical consequences.

Click to expand...

Jerome,

You're probably correct here. For all practical purposes, for example, the Olympus OMD-M1 system can stand even for pro wedding work.

Jerome Marot said:

Sony RX100 (almost as good as "middle sensor"). The RX100 may actually be what Antonio needs, BTW (especially in its rumoured third iteration with a faster lens and built-in viewfinder).

Click to expand...

Even RX100 II with 40% more light sensitivity and a f1.8 lens, is a great quality candidate and the zoomed lens makes it versatile. It can be also set with click stops for 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 70mm or 100mm focal lengths using the camera’s control ring. That to me is very useful. This offers great value for the ~ US $698! Perhaps the price will drop even further with the release of the III!

Still, while we're at it, if one could go for the Sony RX-1 35mm fixed "full frame" brother too, that would be magnificent, but at $2800, that might be a stretch. I'd have thought that all that antonio needs could be discovered with this one camera. But then, everyone has their own dreams and "needs".

Asher

Antonio,

Here is my biased view - I can only describe what I use(d).

When complete silence is required, I only have the X10. The image quality is known, it is a small sensor camera (DR>11EV). I used it for shooting during a Kabarett performance, also during moments of complete silence. Any of the below cameras would have been too loud.

The E-M5 (DR>12EV) and the K-3 (DR>13EV) are not that much different in acoustic noise level, the K-3 is a tad bit louder, but the there is more distinction in the kind of noise generated than in amplitude.

The fact that the screen can be tilted makes waist-level shooting possible, a plus in my eyes for the E-M5.

The K-3 has an advantage in IQ, if you want a bit more DR, try the K-5IIs (>14EV). Acoustic noise is the same for both.

Both of the latter cameras are perfectly usable when there is a minimum noise level, only the person next to you will hear it.

Best regards,
Michael

Asher Kelman said:

Even RX100 II with 40% more light sensitivity and a f1.8 lens, is a great quality candidate and the zoomed lens makes it versatile. It can be also set with click stops for 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 70mm or 100mm focal lengths using the camera’s control ring.

Click to expand...

Clics, but no stops. The ring turns freely, the beeper of the camera can be configured to emit clics at these focal lengths.

This offers great value for the ~ US $698! Perhaps the price will drop even further with the release of the III!

Click to expand...

Certainly, the RX 100 II is a great camera and most probably its price will drop when the model III is out, yes.

Still, while we're at it, if one could go for the Sony RX-1 35mm fixed "full frame" brother too, that would be magnificent, but at $2800, that might be a stretch.

Click to expand...

The RX-1 can be found for a lot less than that used. It is a very nice camera with one of the best 35mm lens in history.

Robert Watcher said:

I have thought I'd like a completely silent shutter on my camera in the past - but something that you may want to consider is - how can you tell when you've taken the photo if you can't hear the shutter? Personally I had never thought of that until someone brought it to my attention. As it is - with my wife's iPad, I end up pressing the shutter several times without knowing it - she gets so ticked at me for that.

And as Jerome has mentioned - only small sensor point and shoot cameras have the option of not using a shutter. But even then, they generally add a digital clicking sound so that you know when you've taken the picture.

As for cameras - - - I have been using micro 4/3 sized sensor cameras for probably 3 years now, and am totally convinced of their ability. A huge advantage of the Panasonic GX7 over the Sony, is the number of lenses available for the micro 4/3 bodies. And blazing fast and accurate autofocus as well - for some reason, Sony and Fuji are no where near Panasonic and Olympus when it comes to Contrast Detect Auto Focus speed.

Click to expand...

I may be mistaken but when you photograph with the iPad don't you even get a "glimp" of darkness corresponding to the capture ?
I am not wishing to buy a new camera and lenses. The new camera would essentially be as an extra to be used in very special occasions. To travel light in November for example, when we will be heading to CA ...
The question of image quality is important and not so good as with the Canon 5D but I tend to give more importance to the image itself and mainly the the weight I have to carry.

Jerome Marot said:

The Oktoberfest pictures in that thread were taken with the NEX-7. It was discreet enough for that occasion.
If I may: your questions are reasonable, but do not tell the whole story. You want to take pictures of people in the streets, discreetly. Any camera can do that. But, taking the NEX-7 and GX7 which you gave as an example, the GX7 is less discreet (because of its silver colour...) but has a very useful stabilisation and tilting viewfinder. The available lenses choices are very different (the GX7 can also use the Olympus lenses). All these things will make a lot of difference in practice...
The NEX-7 and GX7 have an electronic viewfinder. I suppose that you want that feature?

Click to expand...

Yes Jerome, I want to take pictures of people in the street discreetly. At this point of the conversation the Panasonic looks very attractive not only by the lenses it can take (if ever I buy an extra one) and yes the electronic viewfinder is also an important attribute.
I have nothing to say about the Oktoberfest pictures. On the contrary.
So you use the camera also for people in urban areas...

Jerome Marot said:

... The RX100 may actually be what Antonio needs,...

Click to expand...

It looks to me that the Sony RX100 has not the capability of lenses interchangeability.

@ Robert Watcher
Thank you for the pictures ! Yes it is something similar I want !
You know Rob... I am getting a bit confused already LOL

Asher Kelman said:

... one could go for the Sony RX-1 35mm fixed "full frame" brother too, that would be magnificent, but at $2800, that might be a stretch. I'd have thought that all that antonio needs could be discovered with this one camera. But then, everyone has their own dreams and "needs". Asher

Click to expand...

No Asher I do not "need" such camera. The Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 looks pretty good to me now. The tilted screen and the turnable viewfinder allows to take pictures like Rob does.

I must say something important now. First that I want to spend no more than 1.000 € which is at the current rate about 1.386 US$ and that I will be buying the camera in November 2014 when in US.

As the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 is now 1.000 US$ it fits in the budget. BUT this price is not with lens !!!
Next step: the choice of a lens.

Thank you Michael for your biased view ! LOL
-

Hi, Antonio,

Only one little thing I need to know: Which is the conversion factor for these 4/3 cameras ?
I mean 10 mm corresponds to how many in full frame ?

Click to expand...

A 10 mm lens used on a "four-thirds" camera will give the same diagonal field of view as would a 20 mm lens used on a full-frame 35-mm format size camera.

That is, the "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length factor" for a "four-thirds" camera is 2.0.

Best regards,

Doug

Hi Antonio
Have an eye on the Pentax K3.
I find it particularly not noisy and it delivers beautiful files…

A quick note - the gx7 has an electronic shutter option that is completely silent. There are certain limitations like rolling shutter artefacts and limits on iso and shutter speed but they can be lived with.

I have the silent shutter option on one of the many customisable function buttons so switch back and forth when needed.

Hope this helps.

Thank you Doug, Nicolas and Sam !

Thank you all also, whol have been of great help on making me to decide on which camera to choose from.

@ Nicolas
The K3 is a bit too bulky I am afraid Or may be not... I'll have to hold it ...

Antonio Correia said:

Thank you Doug, Nicolas and Sam !

Thank you all also, whol have been of great help on making me to decide on which camera to choose from.

@ Nicolas
The K3 is a bit too bulky I am afraid Or may be not... I'll have to hold it ...

Click to expand...

It's so small and light compared to the 645D!

Nikon Df too large?

Sam Hames said:

A quick note - the gx7 has an electronic shutter option that is completely silent. There are certain limitations like rolling shutter artefacts and limits on iso and shutter speed but they can be lived with.

Click to expand...

That is quite interesting, I did not know that.

jake klein said:

Nikon Df too large?

Click to expand...

I was wrong !

Doug Kerr said:

Hi, Antonio,



A 10 mm lens used on a "four-thirds" camera will give the same diagonal field of view as would a 20 mm lens used on a full-frame 35-mm format size camera.

That is, the "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length factor" for a "four-thirds" camera is 2.0.

Best regards,

Doug

Click to expand...

Hi Doug, I believe that "four-thirds" is 18mm sensor width not diagonal, hence the lens will give a horizontal AOV equivalent (not diagonal it being of 4:3 analogy) of what a double focal length lens would show on a 35mm camera...

Antonio... I'm surprised nobody mentioned any of the Fuji's... I believe you should consider them among your possible choices too...

Hi, Theodoros,

Theodoros Fotometria said:

Hi Doug, I believe that "four-thirds" is 18mm sensor width not diagonal, hence the lens will give a horizontal AOV equivalent (not diagonal it being of 4:3 analogy) of what a double focal length lens would show on a 35mm camera.

Click to expand...

My error. Here is what I should have said:


The nominal diagonal dimension of a Lumix DMC GX7 frame is very nearly 22 mm.

As a matter of record, the four-thirds standard does not prescribe a frame width or height nor an aspect ratio, but only the diagonal dimension (21.63 mm) (although it is customary to use a nominal 4:3 aspect ratio). Compared to the nominal diagonal dimension of a full-frame 35-mm format, the "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length factor" of a camera actually having that specified diagonal frame dimension would be 2.00.

Best regards,

Doug

Antonio Correia said:

I was wrong !

Click to expand...

Wrong about what?

jake klein said:

Wrong about what?

Click to expand...

Nikon Df is not too large as I thought it was...

Doug Kerr said:

Hi, Theodoros,
My error. Here is what I should have said:

A 10 mm lens used on a Lumix DMC GX7 camera will give the same diagonal field of view as would a 20 mm lens used on a full-frame 35-mm format size camera.

That is, the "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length factor" for a Lumix DMC GX7 camera is 2.0.​

The nominal diagonal dimension of a Lumix DMC GX7 frame is very nearly 22 mm.

As a matter of record, the four-thirds standard does not prescribe a frame width or height nor an aspect ratio, but only the diagonal dimension (21.63 mm) (although it is customary to use a nominal 4:3 aspect ratio). Compared to the nominal diagonal dimension of a full-frame 35-mm format, the "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length factor" of a camera actually having that specified diagonal frame dimension would be 2.00.
Best regards, Doug

Click to expand...

Thank you Doug

Theodoros Fotometria said:

... Antonio... I'm surprised nobody mentioned any of the Fuji's... I believe you should consider them among your possible choices too...

Click to expand...

Thank you Theodoros.
I do not know but I think I am pretty happy with the solution.
Have a nice week-end