Does it pay to tell people their work is mediocre?

Somebody posts pictures or a link, you go there, and the shots all make you shrug or even say, "Wow, look at all the snapshots." If they don't ask for direct feedback or C&C, do you just say nothing or offer some generic platitude, or do you risk crushing someone's most cherished beliefs about their abilities in an unsolicited attempt to help them?

I know a little about this, having very recently realized that I have always been a snapshot taker, and boy was it a long way down. It was also a very important lesson for me, and it lit a new fire under my desire to improve my techniques and vision and desire to contribute something more relevant than another 5,000 snapshots.

So, a person thinks they are really a great photographer, and they share their work with you and it turns out to be mundane or even poor photography, but they haven't asked you for criticism. What do you do?

A quote from Theodore Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

OK Joel, I'll bite ;-). You've touched an interesting subject there, one I've been pondering upon myself.

Firstly, I am under the impression that we here on OPF have agreed in previous discussions that C&C must be explicitly asked for by the creator of the image (I can't find the relevant threads right now, too busy to do an extensive search). We also, IIRC, have agreed that the poster should provide relevant info and the areas of C&C which he/she is seeking.

So providing feedback to someone who is not looking for C&C is a no-go for me. One will only end up irritating people. OTOH, I am slightly irritated by some people who are posting images on OPF and who are not being specific about their goals for doing so. OPF, to my knowledge, is not a photo sharing site such as pbase, smugmug or flickr where one can create circles of friends and clap each other in the back saying how great the photos are. I'd prefer that any poster of a photo here on OPF should have a specific goal for doing so, such as seeking C&C or the like.

Secondly, I am in a similar situation to yours. Having paid special attention to the field of photography in the past few years (also thanks to sites like this), I've come to realize that I was just a mediocre snapshotter for the past 35+ years, with the occasional rare gems (must have gotten just dumb lucky occasionally). That's why I am now trying to get better in photography. Previously, I've never shared photos on the Net. Here on OPF, I've done it a few times for the purpose of seeking advice & critique from other contributors. I'd be very ashamed if one of my rare "exhibitionisms" have been partial cause to your post, I sincerely hope not .


Cheers,

Disclaimer: I have no cherished beliefs about my abilities as an accomplished or great photographer, on the contrary! But even if I would, I'd still welcome all C&C.

Cem Usakligil said:

I'd be very ashamed if one of my rare "exhibitionisms" have been partial cause to your post, I sincerely hope not .


Cheers

Click to expand...

HAHAAAAA! I am discovered. Sorry, but you stink.

But seriously, I have looked at most of the threads on this site, and don't have actual remembrance of any of your photos, so I promise my remarks were unrelated to you or your body of snapshots, I mean work. (I do remember being completely slain by some of Nicolas's amazing images, and some shots on the wildlife forum, but I don't have it all memorized yet)

I appreciate the response. I wouldn't tell a complete stranger (unbidden) that their work leaves me cold, and even if they asked I would be hard-pressed to give the unvarnished truth, though that might be exactly what they need to hear. Too many unknowns with strangers. If someone says, "I really really want only the most honest responses, please feel no need to massage my ego, just give me the straight truth," well, we'd see at that point. I'm not sure how many people really want that level of honesty, though. Very risky! And I'm far from an authority, but I know that many here could offer highly valuable expertise.

I guess it comes down to whether people actually want to improve their skills or whether they already think they are fairly accomplished (but aren't). If the latter were the case, a certain amount of anger might result, and that doesn't help anyone. Myself, I am basically starting from square one, and it's good! I don't WANT to be that person who mistakenly thinks they are a fine photographer. Been there, done that, and it got me nowhere.

I guess one way to deal with this is simply not respond. A poster who isn't asking for C&C won't keep posting if the posts don't generate any responses. I also prefer to respond to shots that have some redeeming features so I can at least start by saying "I like the...." If there's nothing redeeming there's little to be gained by making that one observation.

Joel Slack said:

...Myself, I am basically starting from square one, and it's good! I don't WANT to be that person who mistakenly thinks they are a fine photographer. Been there, done that, and it got me nowhere.

Click to expand...

It gives me great pleasure finding out that I am not the only one with this mind set.
I am sure that we'll reap the rewards someday .

Cheers,

To display one's work in any forum whether it be in a brick and mortar gallery or on the net to me is a tacit invitation for others to make comment. Certainly choice of words may be tempered but as in any social setting there is no way to guard against individuals simply not liking what you do.

Does it pay? That depends on what you seek in return. Advice and constructive criticism have always been helpful for me. Its not even remotely realistic to expect everyone to like your work either. Choice of subject, texture, color, shading, and context. For example personally I think Jackson Pollock's abstract art looks horrible .. as do many others.

We need to learn to accept criticism gracefully respecting another viewpoint perhaps and have the courage to tell other people what we think. When my friends bring by pictures to share with me ... we play with them ... change the crop ... color balance ... curves ... talk about composition ... and enjoy the give and take. Every criticism they give me on my work is a wonderful view into another mind, another way to look at reality. Keep them and encourage them!

No one person's opinion is "better" than another. We'll all at the end of the day see with our own eyes and hearts so go ahead and share what you think about our photos. Tell us you think they look like mundane snapshots and sometimes you'll just have to trust that the other photographer understands thats just the way you see it

Happy Shooting

Tom Trostel

Here's my take.

Photography for documentation of a crime scene, the heavens or surgery requires no attention to composition only to collection of as much clear evidence of what is in the scene so this can be the basis of a data base.

Photography for advertizing or as the partial compositon for a double page spread to be completed with text, requires the special needs of the vertical market in mind.

The snap shots of birthdays, friends and vacations need only show where one was sufficently to share with others and to enjoy. These belong in Layback cafe if they are to be posted in OPF.

By contrast artistic pictures require embedding the potential to evoke emotions and thoughts. This is hard to do and requires that the photographer work to choose the subject that inspires them to isolate and record but then make into a physical form that can work as art.

This work is hard to do. It requires discipline to have goals and ability to choose and to frame from an interesting position to include and exclude and to have lit in a way that brings out the compelling potential of the subject as if it had a personal life and importance.

This I have felt constitures an arduous perilous "Arc of Intent".

It may or not work but here at OPF we are in the occupation of that struggle.

The community here might then say, if you really want to do that, then you might consider doing this.

If you post here, then you are putting your work out here for us to react. It is worthwhile to comment on mediocre work when the poster has the drive to really accomplish.

If the follow up work shows no movement, we let them know privately.

This process cannot work when the photographer posts work with no title, no stated purpose or context and no technical information guide to us.

So one must post reactions to images posted or OPF wont work.

Asher

P.S.

The posting of naively amateurish images is dealt with by a private PM from myself or someone else to give guidance and public debate which I believe will self-regulate in an open forum.

Look at the current threads on the Lion and the Lemur .

Asher Kelman said:

Here's my take.

Photography for documentation of a crime scene, the heavens or surgery requires no attention to composition only to collection of as much clear evidence of what is in the scene so this can be the basis of a data base.

Click to expand...

Though all of those subjects can be treated differently in journalistic photography in such a way as to provoke strong emotions. It might be significant to draw the distinction of intent rather than subject. For example an exhausted fireman sooty and bedraggled outlined by a raging fire in the background IS a picture of a crime scene ... however the intent is to capture a mood or feeling.

several comments....

• I think it is inappropriate to tell someone their work is mediocre if they haven’t specifically asked for input. Most people take photographs because they enjoy it. Turning professional, or becoming an internationally-recognized artist may not be the person’s goal. If the photographer enjoys their snaps, it’s really not anyone else’s job to dissuade them.
• Everyone’s gallery reflects a moment in time. I often look back at shots from previous years and ask “how could I ever have thought that was good?” But I was proud of the shot at the time I posted it. I’m sure I’ll be saying the same thing next year, and the year after. I think it’s more useful to look at someone’s gallery as a tool for understanding where that person is on the learning curve rather than to pass judgment on their abilities. Most people improve with practice. Someone who is mediocre today might be very good in a few years. Some people may not put enough effort into photography to improve significantly. That’s their choice. But again, if they are happy with their photographs, why go out of your way to tell them otherwise?
• “Good” is subjective. I think it is presumptuous for any of us to believe we are the ultimate judge of artistic merit. Just because I don’t care for a particular photographic style doesn’t make it bad. Lots of famous artists have been told early in their career they were hopelessly lacking in talent. There are photographers I respect and photographers I don’t respect. I just tend to leave it at that.

Tom

Your intentions are in line with mine: to be fair and not intimidate people from sharing and having fun.

Tom Henkel said:

I think it is inappropriate to tell someone their work is mediocre if they haven’t specifically asked for input.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's true. We are well mannered here. However, a post outside of Layback Cafe forum must be considered seriously.

Anything goes in Layback cafe, since that is totally casual.

Elsewhere we are trying to get to a better image, or at least that's our organizational purpose

Tom Henkel said:

Most people take photographs because they enjoy it. Turning professional, or becoming an internationally-recognized artist may not be the person’s goal. If the photographer enjoys their snaps, it’s really not anyone else’s job to dissuade them.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Snaps are snaps and they are for fun sharing and memories. Treated otherwise is unfair.

Tom Henkel said:

Someone who is mediocre today might be very good in a few years. Some people may not put enough effort into photography to improve significantly. That’s their choice. But again, if they are happy with their photographs, why go out of your way to tell them otherwise?

Click to expand...

We don't say anyone's work is mediocre, although we might think that. I think that of a lot of my images and discard them!

However, if one posts in a serious thread, one is exhibiting in a place where people assume you welcome feedback and reactions as to other people's experience.

If one does not want such comment then say so or post in Layback Cafe or as a link to your own site.

I agree that it might be insulting to declare that someone's work is mediocre. Rather, we dish out constructive criticisms.

If you read my recent posts on the Lion and Lemur it will be obvious as to how one cmight react to pictures posted here.

Tom Henkel said:

“Good” is subjective. I think it is presumptuous for any of us to believe we are the ultimate judge of artistic merit.

Click to expand...

Noone here, that I have noticed, calls people's work "bad" or "mediocre".

The thread was started with good intent asking the value, if any, on commenting on work one believes to be "mediocre".

There are simple tests we can do.

If we look at the picture and it impresses us, makes us feel, makes us think, entertains us, compells us to revisit and share with others or write to the photographer, then the photograph works.

To some extent then that picture must be "good".

If no one ever thinks the work is any good then the work can still be a mastepiece but unappreciated by people (not at this time open or prepared for the work).

However, at the very least, someone, the photographer should get something out of that picture.

Everyone really knows all this, but for some reason there is a need to re-articulate these principles.

When a photograph transcends the particulars of the subject and becomes symbolic of more than itself; when the audience appreciating the photograph becomes a confluent supportive body of opinion, the work may be now accepted as a work of art.

If people will put down hard cash and collect such images and search after more like that, the photographer is now producing works of art valid and valued for the art market.

None of these steps require sanction of partcular gurus, although a good word certainly helps.

It is entirely unpretentious to evaluate and critique other people's work. We must do that in order to discriminate in everything we do.

Here it is not an option but, I would suggest, is a necessity for a forum dedicated to the final presented image.

However, if one wants to post with no comments allowed, say so! You can do just that, but to what end?

Asher

Editing an image is another matter. Permisson must be obtained.

Joel Slack said:

So, a person thinks they are really a great photographer, and they share their work with you and it turns out to be mundane or even poor photography, but they haven't asked you for criticism. What do you do?

Click to expand...

I give constructive criticism if I have the time and emotional state to give it or I bite my tongue if it is not in me to give at that moment. There are also factors like the snapshooter's intent. Many people simple record things that occurred and they have often met that goal leaving my peculiar interest in refining visions to make them more iconic pointless. And my style is only one way of looking at the world. I have seen truly mediocre work praised when all I see is sloppy composition.

And then, I fail in my own work too. Sometimes a best effort is not up to snuff. I have tens of thousands of insect photos on my drives yet you will likely ever see at most 50 of those. Some of that is due to repetition and some is because they lack that je ne sais quo that makes an image pop out to the viewer. With insects modeling direction works almost as well as it does with dogs (rather poorly).

But back to criticism, sometimes it is worth giving. Other times simply noting what one likes and ignoring other factors gives positive direction without negativity or the need to express complex ideas. i.e., I like the color scheme, I like the isolation of ... which all note what I like.

What I really dislike is when the uneducated (formally or informally) insult and degrade those who care to teach as they have been insulted by those who do not criticize constructively. If criticism is not constructive, then it is simply veiled insults and not truly criticism as the the element of understanding and the integration of the comments into a gestalt is missing.

Your mileage may vary.

enjoy your day,

Sean

I think that every photo posted, even the snapshots, should have some reason for being posted. I would expect the photographer to say what that reason is. Otherwise, the viewer is having to guess, and can easily pick up on something that was not required. Generally, if it is just a photo, with no other information, then I do not bother looking too closely, or commenting. However, I will try in future, to be more inquisitive on any snapshots posted in 'layback cafe'. ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

One of the great things about the vast world of the web is that there really is something for everybody to enjoy, learn from, or to which they can contribute. This particular forum seems a fine place, but this post has finally tipped me in the direction that it is not exactly for me. Nonetheless, I wish you all well and leave you with this link which I found to be particularly appropriate to this topic and very funny to boot: http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-internet.html

Cheers everyone!

Sorry to read you're leaving

Tim Smith said:

One of the great things about the vast world of the web is that there really is something for everybody to enjoy, learn from, or to which they can contribute. This particular forum seems a fine place, but this post has finally tipped me in the direction that it is not exactly for me. Nonetheless, I wish you all well and leave you with this link which I found to be particularly appropriate to this topic and very funny to boot: http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-internet.html

Cheers everyone!

Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

I am rather sorry to read this right now. Likewise, I wish you well .

Re. the reasons for leaving, I don't get it really. What exactly were your expectations of OPF and how the contents of this particular thread have made you decide that it is not for you?
From the two quotes you've posted in this thread -while not explaining your personal take on them in your own words- one can conclude that you subscribe to the opinion that doing something one's own way is much better than doing nothing at all but criticising others who do something (oversimplified summary). If this assessment is correct, I still don't get how and why the posts in this thread have conflicted with your opinion, because IMO they haven't. We were just discussing when & how C&C could be delivered, not that it should be mandatory to criticise all submitted photo's to death or anything like that. A bit confused really??

Hope you'll stick around a while longer..

Cheers,

Tim your posted link was totally perfect People at work are wondering why I'm laughing in the corner now though.

Thank you for sharing it with us

Thomas,

Yes the quote is interesting. The guy sweating in the battle IS the most important to him and his family.

However, do you now find it acceptable to provide feedback on posted images?

After all, one can post and say please don't critique or else place it in Layback cafe.

I can assure you Thomas that we will never allow destructive criticism.

We wish to nurture everyone's work.

I'd love to hear your take now that people have explained the purposes and limitations on feedback.

Asher

If I ever post an image on a photo forum, I absolutely rely on more experienced photographers sharing with me how I may improve that image, and by extension, my skills behind the camera. My chief goal is to improve in that area. I am truly sorry if my question about how appropriate it is to critique improvable images has led a member to question the intent of this forum.

Clearly, mean-spirited attacks are inappropriate, on this board or elsewhere. I have always enjoyed the quote by Teddy Roosevelt, but I don't believe he would have intended it to be used to convict those who freely and politely offer the benefit of their expertise to help someone improve their skills, be they photographic or otherwise. I am not a good photographer, as yet, and I absolutely will not improve if nobody steps up to tell me where my skills fall short, and how I can improve the effectiveness of my work.

I sincerely hope that you will reconsider, Tim, as I am certain that no one here has any desire to mock or insult anyone who posts their images to these pages. It is one of the reasons I chose to join this forum. It would be a shame if you decided to leave based on the mutually beneficial give and take between photographers of all skill levels.

Hi Joel,

for wiw., I have seen nothing raised here that could cause offence, but I try not to be easily offended. It is correct that we should be able to ask questions, we can then decide if we like the answers once we've heard them. I think that there is a general agreement within the thread, as to 'how it is', and that complies with Asher's ground rules, and I think you have summarised it pretty well.

There is freedom of speech, and freedom of choice, within this forum, and elsewhere. Roosevelte was able to say what he thought, I am allowed to agree or disagree with what he has said, and voice my opinion. Personally, I think the quote is rather banal, similar thoughts have been expressed far more eloquently, both before and after that time.

Best wishes,

Ray

I don't post my own images for critique, any critique feedback, on this forum because I disagree with some of the rules that were set in stone in the early days. To me, that's another way of adhering to the rules (after trying to appeal them).

But I do post my opinion (and photos) on the FM boards. There are some posts of pictures for critique that leave me so cold that I don't even know where to start, so I don't post. However, some pictures are so sad while they had potential, and there when I get the feeling that the poster actually wanted to get an honest opinion, I do provide it. In all cases save one this has always been well received; maybe in part because I was the only, or one of only a small number of people who actually cared to respond with anything.

The one thing that I often do is post honest feedback to the "regulars" of the board. Usually, their threads go on and on for pages in endless raving and thanking in return, and I don't mind to say that "in comparison to your other work this is lacking because of X". And by all means I think my responses are matter-of-factly and civilized. And with these posts, so far I have received only one feedback whatsoever. True feedback doesn't seem to be really desired.

For this reason I provide feedback only for people who really seem to need it and honestly request it, and stay away from "regulars". Inbreeding is such a thing, you know, and it happens with all forums (and in real world too). Personally, I do ask for brutal honesty but that's mainly because I don't know it any other way, and rarely get it.

I view OPF as different....

One of the things I find here that is different than other sites is that there appears to be an honest respect for others worth. Hmm. I just meant to type WORK and typed WORTH.

Anyway, as I started to say, other forums frequently leave out the respect (and maybe the professionalism) part that I cherish here. What I see is an honest desire on the part of the moderators to be truthful without deceit or being rude or just patting the artist on the back without giving something constructive in the mix. I don't see people just putting up a blind critique that is short without explanation of the road to improvement and not intending to follow the work of the photographers as they strive for some semblance of perfection.

We all have something we can learn in our endeavors to create wonderful images.

Stan Jirman said:

I don't post my own images for critique, any critique feedback, on this forum because I disagree with some of the rules that were set in stone in the early days. To me, that's another way of adhering to the rules (after trying to appeal them).

Click to expand...

Well, considering you are one of the few guys who's work i return to, that gives me pause. Maybe when we started "Rules" were made that seemed necessary at the time. However, the intention has been to be an open forum. Even the "rules" are open for challenge. I have no recollection of where we differed but, let's revisit that subject.

For sure, we don't want anything set in stone except no child pornography, threats, exploitation or stealing of images!

If we are not open, we're not doing what we set out to do.

Stan Jirman said:

But I do post my opinion (and photos) on the FM boards. There are some posts of pictures for critique that leave me so cold that I don't even know where to start, so I don't post.

Click to expand...

When this happens and is, IMHO, due to complete off the wall amateurishness or misunderstaning of what we're about, then I write to them privately and try to get them going, but off the radar.

Stan Jirman said:

However, some pictures are so sad while they had potential, and there when I get the feeling that the poster actually wanted to get an honest opinion, I do provide it. In all cases save one this has always been well received; maybe in part because I was the only, or one of only a small number of people who actually cared to respond with anything.

Click to expand...

When you, yourself post critique, Stan, I value it especially as it comes from someone with experience, talent and maturity.

I don't like to praise the banal. It does no one any good.

In group dynamic, patting on the back is fine as long as this is not over-interpreted. I think that we have a pretty good sense of the rarity of excellent work and are not delusional for all the congratulatory remarks.

Most important, new posters need to be nurtured so they can find their place.

We need to encourage the finest photography. Since great photography is uncommon, this does involve looking at a lot of less than stellar work amongst which there are gems.

The latter is where the most effort is needed, to encourage and support the extra work needed to bring work to its best.

Are we competant to be helpful in this?

For myself, I can only say how I react and want to explore further possibilites if someone is open to this excercise.

Asher

And back to the topic.

Crtitiquing any picture! Maybe it's mediocre, but chances are, so are we! So here's my approach.

What do you feel and think when you see a picture? Don't be flippant. Be considerate. If you think the piece is too trivial to comment on it, don't!

Just spend the extra 10 seconds to frame what you do like first. Make sure you have earned the credit to say what you say. Make sure that you are not just nit-picking.

If one reports on one's reactions honestly, clearly and with manners, then critique, although not grounded in weighty and worthy academic training, still is valid.

That validity is the simple measurement of visceral and intellectual reactions, entertainment, fun, reappraisal and so forth that occur in this particular audience. With this humble disclaimer, critique is both valid and can be useful if the work has some perceived merit and if the poster is able to discriminate between critique that helps him/her on the right path or if it is diversionary.

It is not so much is it worthwhile to the would be reviewer to critique mediocre work that is the important question.

Rather I'd ask if the artist can withstand critique and filter out the nonsense and foolish informed opinions from mediocre critics and still find the pearls which will be there too!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

It is not so much is it worthwhile to the would be reviewer to critique mediocre work that is the important question.

Rather I'd ask if the artist can withstand critique and filter out the nonsense and foolish informed opinions from mediocre critics and still find the pearls which will be there too!

Click to expand...

For me, I need practice accepting critiques. I still bristle reflexively when I receive them. There's multiple layers of value to both halves of the critiquer/critiquee equation, and I think everyone is better served by honesty (which is not an excuse for gratuitous brutality - we're not trying to get our critiques published, here).

I've just started reading this forum regularly. I just posted a photo on another thread. It was taken with a P&S for record keeping only so no critique is needed. BUT - when I post a photo on a forum it is specifically for comment. I try to say what I did that was different or why I like it.
I have been dabbling in photography as art and leaning more to my impressionism side. As we all know art is in the eye of the beholder. When I post something it is to get an idea of how the photo would be accepted. I am also trying different processes with photos, sometimes subdued some times highly saturated, lots of color. Now just because I like it doesn't mean the mainstream will, so I look for critque on that photo. I don't plan on exhibiting in the art market for at least a year. The more info I can stuff into my little head the better prepared I will be when it comes time to jump in.

Also by posting thoughts like this I assume that someone will comment back, pro or con. We all have a train of thought at sometime that needs input from someone else. I expect that we photographers can have a reasoned discussion on topics like this without hurting others feelings.

So --- comment away - I love a good discussion. What is art?

Cheers
Chris

Chris Purves said:

...So --- comment away - I love a good discussion. What is art?..

Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

Welcome. Before opening a new can of worms, you might want to take a look at the threads in the following forum

Photography as Art

Also, check out these threads:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1458
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1410

Cheers,

Thanks for reminding me! That was good times!

Well,

there was a lot of ruffled feathers but in the end we all learned a lot that we know only a small amount of what art is and guess what art could be.

The most important thing about being an artist is to be schizophrenic in having one hand on the bannister of reality while the other one feeds you fine rum as you go upstairs to meet your lover.

Too much rum, or too much conscience and you won't get there!

The same is with critique, take a machette to one's own or other's work allows nothing to ever stand.

We need first to recognize the effort and stand in the authors shoes at that place in time and try at least to fathom what if anything was imprinted in the form being experienced. That's what we try to do here. We are not concerned with whether or not the photograph will sell, but what reaction, if any, it is able to invoke in us.

Giving back this information requires savvy, tact and skill. First one has to recognize one's own reactions. It helps to simply describe.

If one can critique one's friends work kindly but honestly, then one can do the same for oneself.

If you have zero interest in a picture, maybe don't bother to comment.

What's most valuable is when you like something about a picture........except!

In this case, you are honestly motivated. Furthermore, if the work is worthy of your interest, the poster is worthy of your honest appraisal of how it makes you feel and think.

Asher

i can take it

I'm not a beginner, but not a 'pro' or an artist. Somewhere in the middle. I've posted photos on Photosig and have learned a lot that way. But the critiques become predictable - it's over/undersharpened, too much/too little contrast, hot spots, whoops there's a dust speck, etc.

I'd like to produce images that people look at and say, "hmmmm - I really lke that".

So I want people to feel free to say "it's boring" "it doesn't do much for me" etc. I want honest reactions, not just post-processing tips.

Bursting the artists bubble or not.

Jim,

We should discriminate where and when to focus on technical issues. Art is a matter of embeddiing thoughts and feelings in a physical medium. Dont use technical issues to burst bubbles needlessly. Feedback is wonderful when it is parsimious and careful. More so it has be be asked for by where it is presented.

That's why the photographer needs to place the picture in context. For beginners to photoshop, enter and Intorduction to Digital. There we expect issues of sharpening and curves.

For working out and sharing workflow issues using an image as an example or challenge, then use the forum designed for that.

Here, give honest reactions when the context indicates and these might include:

Gut feelings: drawing in, disghust, fear, wonder, boredom, anger and so.

Thoughts: I like this, it's interesting, I wonder what this means, oh, my god he really did that, so that what they do behind doors, I knew it, what a wonderful child, magnificent lioness licking her cubs, what's that man in the doorway ding, why do I like thiS.

Significence: trite, trivial, common, original, analalogous, metaphorical, compelling etc

Meaning: we might do this, I would love to do that,

Questions

Relation to other works of art?

Do I want to bring other people back to it?

Goes it have a likely audience?

Does it have a likely market?

and more until there is sleep, arousal, satiation, riot, love or total destruction.


Asher

Technic should not be the highest on the list. After all the photograph or other art, works for you or doesn't.

If it works for the photographer alone, that is still art, just not art that works well at this time outside the artitst's bubble.

Jim,

ask, but be specific, and you may receive. But, I suspect you will have to lead the questioning. But, If I've seen 15000 stunning sunsets, then my opinion could well be different than someone younger, and why should my opinion be any better than anyone else's?

Best wishes,

Ray