Members w/ Zero Posts

[Edward Bussa]

I was just looking at the Members List, and I'm sure this has to be a topic of discussion for you guys, but it looks like nearly half or more new members have never posted a single message...

Why is this?

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Ed,

A lot of people lurk. They glide through, again and again, gleaning what is good but don't speak. We have many more people lurking at any time than posting and many don't even log in!

Any ideas to bridge the gap would be welcomed!

Asher

[Edward Bussa]

I'm not sure I have the solution, but I thought a discussion might help.

Off-Topic - how do I use the multi-quote feature? I think I understand what it is supposed to do, but I don't see it documented anywhere... ???

[Asher Kelman]

What do you mean by the "multi-quote feature"?

Asher

[Edward Bussa]

Between the Quote and the Quick Reply button - the icon that changes from + to - when you click on it...

[Nicolas Claris]

Between the Quote and the Quick Reply button - the icon that changes from + to - when you click on it...

Bonjour

you may get some explanation here (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1970)

Have a great day

[Anil Mungal]

Some reasons why people dont post (not just here, but in general):

- Afraid to voice their opinion which might provoke a flame war or personal attack (like on many other discussion sites)
- Someone else has voiced the same opinion you have, so no need in posting a "me too"
- Have nothing new or succinct to add to a thread
- Don't want the real info in a thread to get diluted/lost.
- Apathy
- Are happy with just reading the discussion, but not participating.

I was just looking at the Members List, and I'm sure this has to be a topic of discussion for you guys, but it looks like nearly half or more new members have never posted a single message...

Why is this?

[Edward Bussa]

That's a good list.

It seems like we could do something about both Fear and Apathy AND I can identify some things that ARE being done.

The general tone here is gentle and thoughtful. That should help assuage fear.

The challenges and other queries that Asher and others pose can also help with Apathy.

Some comments about the challenges, they seem intimidating and confusing. When no one comments on photos I post, I tend to wonder why. Are people wary of offending someone / me ? I've found that I learn better when others are direct with me about what is good and bad.

Of course, its just their opinion, right?

[Charles L Webster]

Some reasons why people dont post (not just here, but in general):

- Afraid to voice their opinion which might provoke a flame war or personal attack (like on many other discussion sites)
- Someone else has voiced the same opinion you have, so no need in posting a "me too"
- Have nothing new or succinct to add to a thread
- Don't want the real info in a thread to get diluted/lost.
- Apathy
- Are happy with just reading the discussion, but not participating.

Given the high quality of talent here, mostly I lurk because I don't feel I can contribute in a meaningful way. I'm hear to listen and learn, not shoot of my mouth. If I think I can contribute to a thread in a meaningful manner, such as now, I'll jump in. But mostly I just lurk.

[Asher Kelman]

Charles,

Thanks for being here and speaking up. We value so much learning how to serve people better. We do have a lot of safe places to post such as Layback Cafe and Intoduction to Digital where there should be comfort.

I do hope it can be made easier to get over the inertia or reluctance.

While we're at it, what are you shooting with now and have you done anything interesting lately?

Cheers!

Asher

[David Lowell]

"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt." - Galileo (also attributable to many other people in many different forms).

[Sean DeMerchant]

"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt." - Galileo (also attributable to many other people in many different forms).

The true mastery of a subject is marked by the ability to teach something. Not only can you do it and do it well, you can communicate this to others.

As to being a fool? Who cares. Sometimes it is nice just to be the center of attention. Beginners questions may get short direct answers. Sometimes the answer may be to read up. i.e., for a Canon EOS flash question the answer is likely here:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ (a good read for Canon users)

There are lots of resources out there and sometimes new ones come along and a better solution arises. When these things are not discussed, then others who have similar questions do not get answers.

enjoy your day,

Sean (who is rather pro-education)

[Asher Kelman]

The true mastery of a subject is marked by the ability to teach something. Not only can you do it and do it well, you can communicate this to others.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/2007_OPF_AK/OPF20072/Confucious_MG_2168.jpg

TThere are lots of resources out there and sometimes new ones come along and a better solution arises. When these things are not discussed, then others who have similar questions do not get answers.


When you ask a "dumb" question you really facilitate the learning of everyone.

There was, for example a simple question of getting a "linear file" from the 300D. This eventually raised the question of what does Adobe mean in the choice of "linear" in the ACR dialog box, "Curves"? Are we talking about gamma = 1.0? If not how does one get those files and what is the value of such output?

So whenever you feel reluctant to ask a too simple question or share a frustration with software or gear, step forward and share this issue.

If it doesn't belong in that particular forum, we move it anyway! Sometimes I'll answer provately, most times we get contributions that help everyone.

Posting is your only contribution to making this work and it's so appreciated.

Asher

[Brian Ripley]

A lot of people lurk. They glide through, again and again, gleaning what is good but don't speak. We have many more people lurking at any time than posting and many don't even log in!

Any ideas to bridge the gap would be welcomed!

Asher

Calling people who have posted `New member' and those who have posted 100s of messages (irrespective it seems to me of helpfulness) `Senior member' is pretty discouraging.

As an early adopter I thought we would all be 'just' members (except the owner). No other site I
use practices such discrimination.

[Edward Bussa]

Discrimination? That's an interesting viewpoint.

I look at it as recognition. I don't think it's meant to provide authority to anyone. Moderator's seem like they might have some authority but not Senior Members.

Also, I hadn't thought of it this way, but it could be a way of motivating (some) people to post more as well! That is, if you want the "status" of Senior Member, you can obtain it by just posting more.

Of course, hopefully your posts are helpful and positive and informational. Otherwise, it would just be spam! =D

I do see how the "New Member" title might cause you to wonder how your are being perceived. When a New Member posts, do Senior Members discount your message because you are "new" ? I guess I don't worry about it. I can't change how someone chooses to interpret my message. After people get to know me, they might discount my message just because of my name!

Plus, after all, I am new. Being new could also work the other way for me too. For instance, if I post something in the wrong place or break some other vague or unspoken rule, perhaps someone would see that I'm a new member and take a kinder, gentler approach and instruct me rather than criticise me!?

Or, someone could see that I'm a new member and decide to reply to a post simply because they want to encourage me.

Is that a valid, alternative viewpoint?

[Ken Tanaka]

During a previous "life" I co-administered a large forum site. We would periodically become apprehensive about the ratio of the silent majority to active participants. We actually saw more people with 1 post than none, perhaps because that forum's nature attracted people wanting to ask a single question.

Ultimately we abandoned worrying about it. Silent visitors will sometimes come forward if they have a question or see a topic to which they feel they can constructively contribute. But i wouldn't worry about this stat; it's par for the Internet course.

Regarding titling, this is a feature of the software package that Asher uses. It's a very common feature to all such forum systems and can generally be controlled through the system's administrative preferences tables. It's a robotic feature, with forum administrators establishing pre-set title assignments based on post counts. Some sites disable this feature altogether while others enable members to create their own titles.

Surprisingly, again in that previous life, we found that members placed a great deal of stock in their "titles". For example, members with a great deal of experience and stature in the forum's subject field rather resented carrying the title "New Boot" until they reached some arbitrary number of posts. Others resented frequent, but vacuous, posters being awarded apparent seniority for their propensity for drivel.

Personally I really do not care a whit about this. But I do admit that assigning some type of seniority hierarchy based simply on number of posts is, indeed, a little nutty and carries some emotional weight with membership ranks. I think that registration date and total post count is enough to establish some degree of pseudo-seniority with the general membership. Titles should also be used to flag members who represent sponsors or who hold some other distinctive stature (or who may have a dull axe).

My pence.

[Ray West]

I think at the moment, if you post more than 100, you become a 'senior member'. I have/had no strong views on that, but as Ed mentioned, we tend to treat the new folk more gently. I don't know if it may be better to have 'new member' for say the first 5 posts, then just 'member' or no title after that. That would be enough to explain how to link to images, introductions, etc. for the new folk. I think a number of 0 posters registered last May/June, but it seems most new members now join and post immediately (a few just to sell gear, but they get removed...). Personally, I would remove all members who do not post at least once every three months or so.

Best wishes,

Ray

[Asher Kelman]

During a previous "life" I co-administered a large forum site. We would periodically become apprehensive about the ratio of the silent majority to active participants. We actually saw more people with 1 post than none, perhaps because that forum's nature attracted people wanting to ask a single question.

Ultimately we abandoned worrying about it. Silent visitors will sometimes come forward if they have a question or see a topic to which they feel they can constructively contribute. But i wouldn't worry about this stat; it's par for the Internet course.

Regarding titling, this is a feature of the software package that Asher uses. It's a very common feature to all such forum systems and can generally be controlled through the system's administrative preferences tables. It's a robotic feature, with forum administrators establishing pre-set title assignments based on post counts. Some sites disable this feature altogether while others enable members to create their own titles.

Surprisingly, again in that previous life, we found that members placed a great deal of stock in their "titles". For example, members with a great deal of experience and stature in the forum's subject field rather resented carrying the title "New Boot" until they reached some arbitrary number of posts. Others resented frequent, but vacuous, posters being awarded apparent seniority for their propensity for drivel.

Personally I really do not care a whit about this. But I do admit that assigning some type of seniority hierarchy based simply on number of posts is, indeed, a little nutty and carries some emotional weight with membership ranks. I think that registration date and total post count is enough to establish some degree of pseudo-seniority with the general membership. Titles should also be used to flag members who represent sponsors or who hold some other distinctive stature (or who may have a dull axe).

My pence.

Brian,

Your discomfort with titles is mine too.

I have quoted in entirety since Ken' post is exactly the truth and how I feel.

We are always improving. I like Ray's suggestion. We can alter titles and this is a good thing to reconsider. In the next months we have a lot of improvements. Send me suggestions provately to keep on topic!

I would encourage anyone who is not sure about the wisdom of a question, worried about sticking their neck out to do this:

PM one of the moderators. We are always available somewhere on the planet LOL!Check time and location. If Ray or Nicolas are up Euro time, ask them, myself or Nikolai Pacific time and so forth.

Asher

[Vivek Khanzode]

Here is another reason to add to Anil's list:
-- Photography subjects are intensely personal in nature.

As is my case, I don't want to share the pictures which are mostly of my kids, in an open forum due to some personal circumstances. This in no way implies that I am not interested in photography of course (which is my main reason to visit this site). Actually I have never _ever_ felt 'fear' or any manifestations there of on this site.

I don't have any opinion on the 'New member' debate because I think that there are pros and cons of both options (seniority based on number of posts vs no hierarchy). It certainly does not bother me that I am a 'new member' here.

-- V

[Anil Mungal]

I personally don't even notice the "new member"/"senior member" designations. If I want to get a better understanding of a poster and his work, I check the information in their profile and any web links they may have. This gives me some context to their posting.

[Greg Rogers]

Nothing quite like my first post here being in a thread dead for 7 months. :)

Interesting discussion. My 2 cents is that "lurkers" may be unduly criticized in some previous posts. Gathering information without providing any is not a breach of social norms. As to those lurkers (such as me for the last several days, anyway) who join yet do not post, perhaps they (we?) join as a compliment to the forum, it's owner and active participants, yet choose to remain silent. (as opposed to those who luck as guests and never bother to join). That's why I joined, until I feel confident enough to post more regularly.

I look at this phenomenon as being akin to a child jumping (or diving) into a swimming pool for the first time. They tend to do it when they are quite good and ready, and not before. <smirk>

I tend to be on the "don't really care for it" side of the fence on the "title" issue (new member, senior member). As somebody stated above, post count works. OTOH, I can't see that it hurts anything, and although it might provide a bit of an intimidation factor to new posters (like me), I'd sway easily to the other side of the fence and say that the "senior member" designation is perhaps a nice token of appreciation for more active posters.

Hope my thoughts provide some insight...from the perspective of a somewhat apprehensive newbie. (no need for reassurances, btw.........I can already see what a friendly and civilized place this is!

Thanks to Asher and all members for providing this forum. I am liking what I see so far!
-Greg

[Cem_Usakligil]

...
Hope my thoughts provide some insight...from the perspective of a somewhat apprehensive newbie. (no need for reassurances, btw.........I can already see what a friendly and civilized place this is!

Thanks to Asher and all members for providing this forum. I am liking what I see so far!
-Greg
Spot on Greg! Knowing you from our other photographical home for quite some years now, I am very happy that you've joined and de-lurked. Welcome :-).

Cheers,

[Rachel Foster]

Given the high quality of talent here, mostly I lurk because I don't feel I can contribute in a meaningful way. I'm hear to listen and learn, not shoot of my mouth. If I think I can contribute to a thread in a meaningful manner, such as now, I'll jump in. But mostly I just lurk.

Chas is a photographer with a lot of talent. I look at his portfolio for inspiration.

Me, on the other hand, am a newbie hack and I shoot my mouth off at any provocation. Methinks members who don't post may be far less annoying than hacks (me) who suffer from "verbalitis."

[Nikolai Sklobovsky]

In another, much smaller forum (which I also have an honor to moderate), we have kinda rule of thumb that any new account with zero posts is deleted after a month of silence.
I'm not saying we should do it here at OPF, simply sharing another workable modus operandi.

[Kathy Rappaport]

Methinks members who don't post may be far less annoying than hacks (me) who suffer from "verbalitis."

Rachel,

I think verbalitis is a good thing. I love to Chat.

OPF is a community which requires participation to succeed as a community. If we don't post, we won't have much of a community. Asher can foster our communication and encourage it, but, if we choose not to put up a word, some encouragement, an image then how else can we remain that community?

A newbie or a well seasoned photographer with years of experience can learn something new just by being here too. But you have to partcipate to make i t happen!

[Greg Rogers]

Thanks Cem, and thanks to all for having me. In a horror of horrors, I find myself out of town for night and I forgot my laptop AC adapter, so I won't be spouting off much for at least 24 hours. :)
-Greg

[Rachel Foster]

Thanks, Kathy. I often worry I'm violating the unwritten community "rules" by talking so much. It's just that I'm so excited about photography I can't seem to shut up.

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks, Kathy. I often worry I'm violating the unwritten community "rules" by talking so much. It's just that I'm so excited about photography I can't seem to shut up.

Hi Rachel,

It all balances out! If you have some issue in photography, lenses, insurance, filters or getting a print not to flake, then be sure a score of others have had or are having the same issue.

In OPF we encourage you to become familiar with the idea that Layback Cafe, is exactly like its name, for relaxing chat.

If you choose to post in a technical forum, make sure it is related to the overal intent of the place. Don't worry, we'll move anything else to a proper home!

Try to photograph new subjects every day and return to familiar ones to improve based on your new ideas and, with luck, help from us too. Then post. We like to see your enthusiasm especially when expressed in photography. Still your comments are very welcome anywhere. After all this is a forum. We do need speech!

If it's contraversial and might offend, we'll move it to the appropriate part of the forum in "Uptown" as we encourage expression but don't want to offend people's feelings or beliefs.

So don't worry about talking a lot, you make sure to make us laugh once in a while, or we'll get a contract on you!

Asher

Still, we don't allow demeaning or humiliating people! That's in the TOS!

[Rachel Foster]

The only humiliating I do is of myself....snort! I figure if I can laugh at myself, I'll have laughter in my life daily. Hourly. Ok, every 5 minutes. Snort.

Thanks, Asher, I became concerned when people began expressing a reluctance to post because of the high level of talent. As usual, I jumped in with both feet and was worried I violated forum standards.

It's also reassuring to know that when (notice not "if".... I know myself pretty well) I mess up someone will move my misplaced post to it's proper place.

Again, thank you for clarifying.

[Steve Saunders]

On my own humble motorcycle board I have recently added a note in the registration form telling newbies that if they don't post at least once in the first month (even just to introduce themselves) we will delete their accounts. Part of the reason is that these members use up some forum names that actual posters would like to have.
A better solution I'm looking at is having newly registered members in a Newbie part of the forum with limited access until they post (ie no Gallery use, no signatures, no use of the For Sale area etc)and once they post they will have full rights. This may also helps to catch spammers that slip through the usual precautions.
I think out of 8500 members, 2500 of the oldest ones have never posted and at Christmas I will do a huge prune of these members. I may send them a message first before I bin their accounts.

[Bev Sampson]

Off topic somewhat but Asher, what was/is the motivation for someone like yourself to establish and maintain a forum like this one? It seems like a gigantic effort and time consumer. It also does not seem like it provides a huge monetary gain unless selling ones work results. I do not mean to pry or to be sarcastic but I am just amazed at the effort that is exerted here and wonder why. Perhaps it is a passion for human communication? I do contribute now and then but mostly appreciate the expertise and wisdom provided here.

Bev

[Asher Kelman]

Some posts moved outside the frame of OPF to show courtesy and could be seen as demeaning. That's outside of the TOS of OPF. Besides, all this was based on a misunderstanding mostly related to an incorrect URL which lead one to believe that a nice U.K. photographer working near Munich in Germany was actually another guy in Australia. This is so weird that it serves zero purpose in this thread or OPF.

We never delete Professional posts and have a great leeway on even controversial topics or images, which if hot enough move to Uptown where they are easily accomodated.

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

So let's get back on topic. What remedies might there be beyond deleting memberships of those who never post. Nicolas and I have the philosophy of the least rules. Lurkers are not disruptive.

There's no great lecture that I attended or delivered where more than 30% asked questions! I'd collar the bright ones and challenged them that everything presented could not have been clear or even true! They more than anyone should contribute.

Here in OPF, if you have nothing to ask, nothing to comment on that is surprising. Try to help out! Surely, at least there must be 4 pictures you have that people would enjoy seeing. Shy? Not sure if the quality is good enough? Then PM a moderator, Nicolas Claris or myself! Everyone is ready to help you participate.

Anyway, "How do we get there?" is the question! We'd really like your help on this!

Asher

[Ray West]

Hi Asher,

This is not a lecturing situation (re. your previous example), I thought it was more like a meeting place to chat/solve problems, generate ideas, whatever. It works because of the few hundred who participate, the givers. Long term lurkers appear to contribute nothing, they do not give anything to the discussions, they just take away the results, if any (reward for no effort). They are taking up space in the room, looking over our shoulders. Maybe some are wary of posting, because they are supposed to have used their real name. If they do not speak, how do we know their thoughts? Personally, which may well be a very good thing, I very much restrict what I say here, since so many members are completely unknown.

My views on this are probably quite different than yours, but from time to time this question arises, re. number of lurkers. The question would not arise if lurkers de-lurked, or were removed. I think a number came over just after June 2006, and have not posted since. Many of the newer members post and contribute, which gives us the 'buzz'.

Speaking of which, ...... I used to keep bees, in as much as one can keep a few hundred thousand insects. Now the drones are a complete waste of the hive resources. The workers are all female, and other than mating with the queen bees, the only use for drones seems to be keeping out the draught, when the workers line them up in the hive entrance. Now, some bee keepers removed the drones, but the character of the hive then became rather morose. The hive was not 'right'. A morose hive produces less honey. Who knows the use of our lurkers.... ? ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

[Kathy Rappaport]

No one can force anyone to post. Every one has reasons for piping up and keeping quiet. Sure, we chatty folk would love it if the lurkers posted now and again to say "Hi - I lurk". But the nature of the internet is that some are intimidated, some just can't type at all (or spell) and by some private conversations I've had some people just don't feel their skills are such that they have anything to contribute. Everyone has a reason. Not all pegs fit the round holes!

Just because someone tied up a miniscule amount of space with their sign in, just maybe, they got something out of OPF - a smile for the day, an idea or some inspiration. Maybe a thread like this one will give them the impetus to post. And if not, well, it's the loss of all the others here at OPF who read and post and put their images and thoughts out there. We just won't get the answer.

All we can do is encourage. Maybe one day they will see or view something that will spark participation. If there is no financial cost to them having signed up, so what purpose will it serve by making their membership disappear?

[Asher Kelman]

Off topic somewhat but Asher, what was/is the motivation for someone like yourself to establish and maintain a forum like this one? It seems like a gigantic effort and time consumer. It also does not seem like it provides a huge monetary gain unless selling ones work results. I do not mean to pry or to be sarcastic but I am just amazed at the effort that is exerted here and wonder why. Perhaps it is a passion for human communication? I do contribute now and then but mostly appreciate the expertise and wisdom provided here.
Nicolas, I and others felt the need for a free forum open to new ideas and challenge. We were concerned that either threads were for just gearheads (no sin in that) or else kept deleting valuable opinions or closing threads.

We thought that a forum devoted to improving the quailty of photography and empowering people to have a point of view would allow us to improve, contribute back and also shine a light on ourselves as humans. We all have to struggle with the nuts and bolts of photography, competing and then out of all this approaching excellence. That, we believe is worthwhile.

Yes, it's a lot of work and as we proceed we are learning to delegate! That's why we have a good bunch of moderators. We hope to do much more and we will. There's no money in it and if you see some, let me know, LOL!

Thanks for the kind interest. I would not refuse money! However, that's NOT why OPF is worth doing!

Asher

[Greg Rogers]

Back to "how do we get more people to post"? (A bit pompous of me at this point to use the word "we", but you all get my drift)

Check out this thread;
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34888#post34888

You might notice that Ron took the time to mention every single person who responded to his challenge, by name. This can turn into a conundrum (for the original poster, in this case, Ron) as more people add and time goes on, yet methinks it's important. It gets screwy as more posts appear, and more difficult to acknowledge each) OTOH, I suppose one might argue that acknowledging at least the earliest of posts might be incentive for the timid to give it a go, then understood that posts later might go without reply. Sort of. Maybe.

Asher does an outstanding job at this, and his replies more often than not entice the poster to get more active, as did Ron's...in my case.

I don't want to turn this post into an "about me" post, however I have only been a member on one other forum for the past 2-3 years (until I stumbled here), and the single most thing that 'turns me off" is replying to a post and being ignored (usually, but not always, by the orignal poster -slash- question....or perhaps better put, not acknowledged....even if said post was garbage, as long as it was meant well. (No offense to fellow members of said forum who are here. Trust me, I'm not referring to you).

Not the answer, of course, but hopefully food for thought.
-Greg

[Cem_Usakligil]

...All we can do is encourage. Maybe one day they will see or view something that will spark participation. If there is no financial cost to them having signed up, so what purpose will it serve by making their membership disappear?
Hi Kathy,

You wrote these words under the title "For what it's worth".
I think that your wisdom is worth a lot. Very well put, indeed!

Cheers,

[Cem_Usakligil]

...Speaking of which, ...... I used to keep bees, in as much as one can keep a few hundred thousand insects. Now the drones are a complete waste of the hive resources. The workers are all female, and other than mating with the queen bees, the only use for drones seems to be keeping out the draught, when the workers line them up in the hive entrance. Now, some bee keepers removed the drones, but the character of the hive then became rather morose. The hive was not 'right'. A morose hive produces less honey. Who knows the use of our lurkers.... ? ;-)..
I like the analogy Ray. And I believe that a forum without the lurkers will be a lesser place.

Personally, I don't feel like a lurker "takes away" something from me/us when they read our contributions. After all, if I wanted to keep my know-how and/or wisdom (LOL) limited to a mutual exchange group, I would not become a member of an open forum to start with.

With kindest regards,

[Cem_Usakligil]

....Asher does an outstanding job at this, and his replies more often than not entice the poster to get more active, as did Ron's...in my case.

I don't want to turn this post into an "about me" post, however I have only been a member on one other forum for the past 2-3 years (until I stumbled here), and the single most thing that 'turns me off" is replying to a post and being ignored (usually, but not always, by the orignal poster -slash- question....or perhaps better put, not acknowledged....even if said post was garbage, as long as it was meant well. (No offense to fellow members of said forum who are here. Trust me, I'm not referring to you).

Not the answer, of course, but hopefully food for thought.
-Greg
Hi Greg,

Well said, I agree. It certainly whets my appetite so keep them coming please (ie the "food" for thought).

Asher does indeed a great job in this area, giving the newcomers a sense of being welcome here. But even if one is an old hand, one still yearns to get some (if any at all) response to what is posted here. After all, there always is a purpose to a post regardless of the poster, an inherent plea for reactions; unless stated otherwise explicitly. But it is the inherent nature of an open forum that sometimes one's post just doesn't get noticed (or it is not interesting enough or whatever) and thus receives no reactions. I think that we should also learn to live with this fact, although it is not easy. Believe me, I know <wink>

Cheers,
(nntr: no need to reply)

[Cem_Usakligil]

....We thought that a forum devoted to improving the quailty of photography and empowering people to have a point of view would allow us to improve, contribute back and also shine a light on ourselves as humans. We all have to struggle with the nuts and bolts of photography, competing and then out of all this approaching excellence. That, we believe is worthwhile...
I know that this will sound lame, you might think that I'm sucking up to the boss. Regardless, I can't help but applaud this purpose statement. OPF may have meant many things to many people.

For me personally, OPF has instigated a feeling of urgency and awakened my interest in photography, my then long asleep lifetime hobby. It has made me strive towards improving my results. And for that alone, I am deeply indebted.

Regards,

[Cem_Usakligil]

Some posts moved outside the frame of OPF to show courtesy and could be seen as demeaning. That's outside of the TOS of OPF. Besides, all this was based on a misunderstanding mostly related to an incorrect URL which lead one to believe that a nice U.K. photographer working near Munich in Germany was actually another guy in Australia. This is so weird that it serves zero purpose in this thread or OPF.

We never delete Professional posts and have a great leeway on even controversial topics or images, which if hot enough move to Uptown where they are easily accomodated.

Asher
Hi All,

For those of you who have not read this thread actively in the past 18 hours it may be a bit confusing when you come across this statement of Asher’s and you see that there are four deleted posts above. Asher does not explain further what or how this has happened. At the risk of being reprimanded, I feel that a brief explanation would be appropriate so here it comes.

Kevin has reacted to an older post in this thread by Ray. His reaction has been somewhat misinterpreted by Ray and Asher simply because they thought that Kevin was somebody else due to a typo in his personal URL. This typo made it look like he was an Australian photographer with a certain personal agenda. Knowing Kevin personally, I've jumped in to point out to this unfortunate mistake. After which Asher has decided that this whole discussion has been an unfortunate incident and decided to delete the associated posts just to prevent any possible reputational damage to the involved parties. This does not mean that neither Kevin nor Ray nor myself have thus been “censored” by Asher, not at all. Asher has also assured me that he would make the deleted posts available to anyone who’d ask for it.

Kind regards,

[Kevin Elliott]

Cem, thanks for the explanation and support. All understood now. I've fixed up the URL, I must have been rushing when I signed up.

[Rachel Foster]

Well, if this is sucking up, so be it. I'm a member of the Asher Fan Club as well as the Clubs for some other folks too. Now, all this mushy stuff is bugging me so I'm going to try to sound like John Wayne for a few minutes and regain my tough guy image.

Nope, didn't work.

[Kathy Rappaport]

Well, if this is sucking up, so be it. I'm a member of the Asher Fan Club as well as the Clubs for some other folks too. Now, all this mushy stuff is bugging me so I'm going to try to sound like John Wayne for a few minutes and regain my tough guy image.

Nope, didn't work.

Off topic: I've been fortunate enough to live in the same area as Asher and I have to say being a fan multiplies when you've have the good luck to meet him, and his lovely wife as well. He is one of those people who is quite genuine and without pretense. Asher, you can't delete this one!

[Steve Saunders]

Good point about lurkers not being disruptive. Spammers are the real threat to message boards, not lurkers and many spammers nowadays register on a forum and don't post at all for ages. Then a month or more down the road, some of them either spam the board or put links to porn sites etc in their signatures.
The upside to newbies posting at least once to introduce themselves is that you then know that they are unlikely to be spammers. I'm sure that many of us know of forums that went down the tubes when spammers ran amok on them.

[Kevin Elliott]

The upside to newbies posting at least once to introduce themselves is that you then know that they are unlikely to be spammers. I'm sure that many of us know of forums that went down the tubes when spammers ran amok on them.

True, but mods are there for the spammers - or should be. & I know just how much work being a mod is, especially on a board that's well targetted by spammers.

[steve atkinson]

Went out today to shot for me it was raining igot wet shot only 10 things only 1 any good but dust bunnies only frame withem only interesting shot I'm pisted just thought id let you share my mood no real value I'm Bord no pp to do got ajob tomorrow so id better clean my sensor but Ive just killed a 6 pack do it in the morning.