RANT: Show specials. If they show it as a kit, it should work as a complete kit!

RANT! Bait and Switch!

Well, I am none too happy today. I bought a Profoto monolight kit from B&H over 3 weeks ago. They closed for Passover (which I respect) and I got it while they were closed.

When I set up, I realized that there were some parts missing - synch cables and adaptors so the Pocket Wizards did not work, two light stands for three heads, and no speed rings to work with the 3 softboxes! I patiently waited for them to re-open to have this resolved and now have waited over a week while they decided what they would do to make it right.

I made several contacts with them and was assured the kit was complete when I bought it. It was demonstrated at the WPPI show - with all the parts - but sold to me without the few things that make it operational.

Today after being patient, they called and said that their picture from the flyer shows the parts and that they aren't included. I explained that they were demonstrated with those parts, I inquired about the parts and I expect to have a COMPLETE kit! Why the heck else would you buy a kit? I even used the comparison that they were selling me a car without tires or shoes without laces. I feel that I've been bait and switched. In order to appease me they are offering me the additional parts free of shipping and $100 off the order - the speedrings and light stand and carrying case are over $400 additional.

I feel cheated.....therefore, like any woman scorned....

In my opionion, all rants are semi-incomplete or incoherent. Its just the nature of the thing... =D

However, I must say, you've done a marvelous job of creating a mostly coherent rant!

Kidding! of course!

I just have one question - you said:

Kathy Rappaport said:

I explained that they were demonstrated with those parts, I inquired about the parts and I expect to have a COMPLETE kit!

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Does that mean you inquired about the parts that were missing from the picture and you were assured that those parts were indeed a part of the kit, even though they were missing from the brochure picture?

Kit wass used in a Demo

The kit was used by Hanson Fong in his talk at WPPI with all the parts - it worked at the show! and it was advertised as a show special. There were some conflicts in the printed materials, but, when I placed the order I was told it was complete. The flyer said lightstands...but no quantity. If you bought a three head monolight set, would you not expect three light stands? Am I supposed to hand hold a monolight head? What about synch cords? Only one was sent, but they are now sending me the additional two. And the kit came with three softboxes. Something said it came with the adaptors, but now they are saying that I have to buy the speed rings which means the softboxes are useless - unless I buy the speed rings. They even changed the web page to include a line about the additional purchases. AND they posted my unhappy review.

Can you imagine me using gaffers tape to put the softboxes on the monolights? Let's see, how many forums are there for photographer's - can you call it negative publicity?

Hi Kathy,

From your story it appears the opposite!

They sold a demo kit from the exhibit and then everyone went home for the holdiays for 10 days. You told them it wasn't what you expected. They heard your argument and agreed to correct things. further they even went so far as to take $100 off!

This is what distinguishes B&H. If there's a misunderstanding, they don't put you through 6 dozen hoops, promising you, vtelling you you have to buy something else in the "Bait and Switch." tactic you in error applied this misunderstanding to.

One has to look at the whole record of a company. B&H rank at the very top. If they advertise a price, that's what you get, except if the price drops, they'll give you the lower price!

I would ask your consent to change the title of the thread to represent what this is, as far as I'm concerned, an unfortunate misunderstanding.

I'm glad you are getting the equipment you need and I know we'll see fine pictures.

B&H has earned their stripes!

Asher

Hey Kathy,

I am with Asher on this one. A misunderstanding. No intention to mislead you on their behalf. From my experience of purchasing this type of equipment I have found that I have been required to buy additional items to complete the outfit.
Anyhow, I am sure you will have an interesting time making images with your new lights.

Good luck,

Paul

Sorry, Not the Demo

Asher,

Sorry if it's not clear - They did not use MY kit in the demo - Hanson Fong, a pro wedding photographer, had his kit and he demonstrated how he used it in his talk at the WPPI convention. On the show floor, they had a setup with lighting to show the item and how it was packaged for sale. Three light stands, three monlight heads, three speedrings, three synch cords and 4 pocket wizards. three softboxes, with a case to hold it all. (Two umbrellas and a case came with it too) $3908 with 10% off for buying it within 10 days of the show. NEW!

Then B&H sold the same kit as a show special - they printed a flyer and were selling new kits, actually shipped direct from their warehouse..

I came home and ordered that item, from the internet, said to be a kit. A kit sold as complete at the show and not needing additional purchases. I placed my order over the phone and more than once asked if it had everything I needed and I was told yes, it did. When I put it together, new out of the box, I found that it was incomplete to be used.

B and H is not making this a whole kit. They've back tracked. It requires additional purchase. They admit they did not post it well on the internet in the online catalog. They are only placating me with a $100 discount - I still have to purchase the additional pieces.

You have merely uncovered a miscommunication between the guys that put together the package special and the web people. These screw-ups happen. They went to the extent they have in amking it right to you, not necessarily because you were right, and it seems you were, but out of principal as it it was at least ambiguous.

A "Bait and Switch" company might not allow posting of you negative review!

I am pleased with the result and that they are upstanding and go the extra distance.

To you it is a matter of getting your system as you expect. To them, the last thing they want to do is enter an area of even the appearance of dishonest.

This you must understand comes from halachic law. There are several very strict laws in the bible about honest weights and measures. We went to a lady who sold fish oil and drained the measure overnight to make sure everyone rec eived the full am ount. Obviously she had a small clientele!

Second in dealing with general trade, not appearing to be honest, or acting in a way that might be interpeted as dishonest is a profanation of the religion they espouse. This is called "Chilull Hashem". So this matter is far more important to them than to you! This is why they are meticulous. However, they do employ a lot of people and sometimes the matter has to reach a level before the right reaction slips in.

In future, ask for Mr. Posner to solve the issue for you. I'd also try emailing Henry Posner of B&H. His address is henryp@bhphotovideo.com

I think this is a learning point for people looking for bargains. From B&H you will get an honest deal. Also Samy's Camera, Allens in PA, Adorama, Canoga Camera, Robert White in the U.K. and others people could add.

However, if you see a 1DIIN for $2,000 new, from Fast Camera.com or what ever they are this week, you just have to know that there's zero chance of you receiving the complete new camera with all the components for that price, at least not until 2009 and after 25 calls and a letter from the State Attorney General. However, your credit card will always be billed immediately.

By contrast, B&H and other fine stores will only charge your credit card if they have it to ship or if it is a special order item, like the Seitz 6x17 Digital Panorama Camera, which they don't want to be stuck with!

Asher

Yes, I agree with their belief

I totally understand that. It's not just on the web catalog. I ordered by phone to ensure that I was getting everything I saw and understood. I plainly and clearly asked questions when I bought it. Not just over the web, I called. I asked. I asked at the show and I asked on the phone. "Does this have everything I need to use the lights?" and the response was yes. Not just one time. I am far from a lighting expert. I relied on them to give me what I needed for my task.

How can you use Monolights with soft boxes if don't have speed rings? A complete kit would include that. And the web page said "lightstands". Two for three heads? Absurd!

The correct answer was no. You need to buy additional synch cords, lightstands, and speed rings. At that point I might have purchased a pack and heads instead. They did not say that - they said YES!

Obviously, they did not understand what it needed, but, I do not feel that I should have to buy additional items if they gave me the wrong answer.

Asher I'm as big a fan of B&H and Henry Posner as anybody around (and have the large pile of receipts to prove it), but I have to say that based on what Kathy has very cogently reported, they screwed this up and they should make it right to her.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Hi Kathy, I modified the heading as requested. Hope that is to your satisfaction as I only change things with great respect and care.

I'm glad we discuss this subject, since we all need to know what we are getting. On the B&H site, by the way, there is a page on almost every item sold that is "Item Includes" which lists what one will find in the box. In Pro Photography, there are many specialty companies that might make only part of what one might think is a system. So this is something to look at whenever one buys.

Also there is a page accessories which listed related items that might slip ones mind, like spare bulbs. These, BTW, are only needed if you don't have one!

Asher

Hi Kathy,

Does it say anywhere on whatever you have seen from B&H, or over the phone when you placed your order was is specifically mentioned that you would be getting

Three light stands, three monlight heads, three speedrings, three synch cords and 4 pocket wizards. three softboxes, with a case to hold it all. (Two umbrellas and a case came with it too) $3908 with 10% off for buying it within 10 days of the show. NEW!

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or was it merely implied that the above was the kit contents, by association with the equipment being demonstrated?

If you have not got the advertised equipment, then it either means a mistake has been made, in which case if B&H is a decent outfit, they will immediately rectify it, or it's a bit of sharp practice on their part. It is how this sort of problem is resolved that sorts the good companies from the bad, but based on what you have said, in this instance, B&H is tending towards bad, no matter how loudly they or others profess their beliefs.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,

I think you misunderstand how it turned out!

Asher

Asher,

I've no idea how it turned out, Kathy said she got a part kit, B&H tried to sell her more stuff to complete it. So, how did it turn out? what did I miss?

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,

"Tried to sell her" is I'm sure not what happened. B&H don't try to sell. You order what you want.

Here they had a problem in that she was not buying nor does it seem they were selling something for which the usual detailed list had been prepared. Obviously a slip up som,ewhere and hence the misunderstanding.

I would simply ask someone to list what I was going to get and in initial it at the show. Then they must and would stand behind it.

A new photographer might not realize that one buys a camera and then lenses. Just because you saw a camera used with a 300 L 2.8 IS you would not expect the lens to be thrown in as a trade show special. That is unreasonable. So there is room for misunderstandng.

In a magazine, we often see "lens not included". In a show, this might not be so obvious!

Asher

It waws confusing...

The "kit" was a bunch of kits!

First, I live really close to Canoga Camera - I love shopping there in person - they are more limited in what they carry but for Cameras and lenses - very happy there.
I've purchased MANY things from B&H and Samy's and Calumet. Sometimes I buy from Woodland Hills Camera - All very reputatble. I would never go out on the internet to buy - too many things can go wrong with camera stuff! Too many parts and too much hassle!

My kit was to contain: (you can use the B&H Search box for Hanson Fong Profoto Light Kit - they've modified the listing based on my issue!)

One kit called a 2 heads 600W complete kit with umbrellas and stands - put together by Profoto with a Case, two light stands and two zoom reflectors - one synch cord - I got all these parts - should have had two cords
Plus one 300w compact monolight - turns out to be only a monolight - missing a cord too!
4 PW's - all there but no adaptors to work with heads
3 Softboxes - one page said includes adaptors and one page said nothing.

Missing: Synch cords from head to use with PW's
- 1 light stand - obvious why needed!
- 1 case (so says B&H) - I never saw anything about a 2nd case, I don't care about a 2nd case!
- 3 Speed Rings/Adapters for Softboxes
- 3 Adapters from Synch Cords to make PW's useable (B&H is sending these and synch cords - admitted they were missing)

Anyway....they asked me to fax over whatever I have in print. I will review it later and fax it. In the meantime, I will wait a few days. Maybe I will contact Mr. Posner too.

I posted because as a female, yes, I am emotional! but also, there is always something to learn from things like this!

Kathy Rappaport said:

I posted because as a female, yes, I am emotional!

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LOL---if you think this only applies to us women, better check out some threads on other forums--probably even here. When things don't work out with gear it seems that emotion almost always enters the threads.

Hope you enjoy the setup when you get it all straightened out.

Diane

We're sorry for the initial misunderstanding and for having caused Kathy any distress. I checked our sales database for Kathy's transactions and from what I see it seems our customer service people have responded and that we're taking every necessary step to rectify this.

Two threads now

Yes, Thank you Mr. Posner for your attention and for making one photographer a happy camper today! I answered on another thread. No one lost and now I can't wait to get my lights all set up. I might have a couple portrait sessions next week to share here!

Kathy,

I am very proud that we are part of a community that rewards decent people with respect and the opportunity to fix misunderstandings. I know that we all value having people here on OPF we trust as colleagues and friends in our own homes.

Henry,

I do appreciate you being available in your busy schedule to give us attention.

Glad we discussed this and it's so good to have the matter resolved so well,

Asher