DIY large format - some questions

Hi,

I've been thinking, on and off, of trying large format film, probably black & white, with a view to developing the negatives myself, and then either printing or scanning the results.

There is a simple camera kit here, http://www.camerabellows.com/Bulldog.html but second hand is OK. However, part of the thing is to do as much as possible myself, I have the tooling, I've been thinking of designing/building my own version, but maybe it's not worth the effort, or the time.

My questions are:-

What are the rough, ball park prices for lens and camera backs? (OK 'how long is a piece of string?') I'm thinking initially of, say, only 4*5. I expect anything larger would have much more expensive running costs, but I could be wrong. Cheap is good. (unless it's like the canon 'kit' lens).

Are the camera backs very complex in construction? They do not seem so to me, but I've never seen any of this gear in the flesh, at least not to take notice of. Are their any detailed drawings anywhere?

Is it possible to develop this size negative in a daylight tank, of some sort? I used to develop roll film OK, use a changing bag, Johnson/Patterson spiral loading daylight tank, etc.

Best wishes,

Ray

I haven't done any 4x5 in a loooooong time.. but this may help you..
http://www.silverprint.co.uk/dark38.html
The bottom one is a daylight 4x5 tank.. the one that I used was a Yankee 4x5 tank.. not daylight..
just hangers, tank with a lid...

Hi Duke,

Thanks for the link. It got me thinking - always dangerous. A sort of polaroid idea. A tank to take a single negative. Now, make that tank the film back, too. Now choice of materials. I guess stainless steel has to be used, but I'd prefer aluminium. Not sure any more of the development chemicals used. They may like aluminium too much. Hard pvc is probably OK.

I think I'll have to try and get to see some of the stuff out there, but that may lead me down an existing path, no fun, when the journey is the destination.

Not sure about making the lens. In the larger formats they look pretty simple, and in the very early days, the glass was nothing special. I've some ideas for possibly a shutter mechanism, speed accurate to a micro second or so - electro mechanical. But, I don't think you can use the high speeds on the readily available iso films, unless you have a very large lens. Large lens, 2ft diameter OK, not too difficult.

Just blue skying, none of this is likely to happen, for a while at least, too many other things on the go.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray West said:

What are the rough, ball park prices for lens and camera backs? (OK 'how long is a piece of string?') I'm thinking initially of, say, only 4*5. I expect anything larger would have much more expensive running costs, but I could be wrong. Cheap is good. (unless it's like the canon 'kit' lens).

Click to expand...

You can get a lens with shutter for $100 - $200 on eBay. Lenses start around $350 new. Backs (film holders) are as little as $10 on eBay, start at $30 new. Most exposures (at least for me) are > 1 second, so super accurate mechanical shutters aren't too important.

Based on my personal experiences (1 used lens, 10 used film holders) I'd rather buy a used lens than used film holder. Used film holders can leak light in unexpected ways. I'm gradually phasing out all the used ones I bought in favor of new purchases. I'll keep the used ones that don't go straight to the garbage for emergencies when I need more film loaded than usual.

Are the camera backs very complex in construction? They do not seem so to me, but I've never seen any of this gear in the flesh, at least not to take notice of. Are their any detailed drawings anywhere?

Click to expand...

All the pieces are fairly simple in construction, though considerable precision is required to get accurate focus and adequate light-tightness. I haven't seen detailed drawings around, but I'm sure there are some expired patents you can buy copies of. PM me if you'd like patent numbers (I've got some old film holders that should have numbers in the right age bracket).

When I was putting my kit together there came a point when I had everything (including polaroid back) except the camera itself. I used foamcore and gaffer's tape to make a working 4x5 camera with no movements and basic focusing capability. The lens itself has the shutter and aperture controls built in, taking care of the difficult technical parts. I cut a piece of glass from an unused picture frame and put some privacy frosting film on it to make a ground glass. If you go this route, be very careful to make sure that your ground glass is the right distance back from your camera to match the distance from front of film holder to film. Otherwise, your focus will be off

Is it possible to develop this size negative in a daylight tank, of some sort? I used to develop roll film OK, use a changing bag, Johnson/Patterson spiral loading daylight tank, etc.

Click to expand...

You're looking for an HP combi-plan T, available from B&H. That's what I use. Other people buy the little tanks sold for use with Jobo processors and turn them by hand. Or you can make one yourself. I've seen various plans, ranging from super simple to this.

You can do all your developing in daylight, only needing complete darkness for loading film.

Ray,

I have dip tanks for 4x5. You load the sheet film into hangers and move them from tank to tank. The tanks are hard rubber and fit the hangers perfectly. You can run maybe 7 sheets at a time. (Been awhile). This probably isn't what you are looking for.

As for film holders, you'll know first time through if you have a light leak. I don't think there is anything wrong with second hand ones as long as they look good. Check the slides real carefully as that is normally where you'll find a crack. It doesn't take much, a good smack will crack one. If the slide feels good going in, some resistance, then it is probably fine. If the felt is gone, you'll know first time out. Oh, and get a good brush to keep the dust out of them.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks Eric and Paul. There is an attraction for using a circular tank, and rolling it, which I hadn't thought of. You can use a small amount of the developer. I'm thinking 6 inch plastic 'soil pipe'. I have yards of it. Could glue thin strips inside, and get in 4 off 5x4 quite easily.

I suppose I could google, but is ortho film still around? I had made a changing bag, now long gone, but maybe a box, with red perspex in the lid, may be more useful, can see what I'm doing then. (I'd made a 35mm bulk loader, used to have to load it in the dark. Always, as soon as I'd stuck my arms into the sleeves, my nose would itch, or the door bell would ring.) I used to get four 35mm B&W negs for a penny, back about 1967, I guess.

I could use the drain pipe for the camera body, too. Diagonal of 5*4 = (sqrt (25+16) = 6.4 = almost do it. How cheap can this be done?

Best wishes,
Ray

I've not heard of ortho film being available. All the films I've looked at (admittedly I'm not looking for vintage recipes) say to handle in total darkness.

Loading film in the dark isn't hard at all. Take one piece of sacrificial film and practice loading a few times with the lights on, then shut your eyes and do it a couple times. After that it's pretty easy - nothing to be afraid of. Even using my crappy changing back (a tent would be much better) I've not had any problems.

You're right about using less developer being nice. I use a Combi-plan T and it takes a full liter of chemistry for 6 sheets of film. I use XTOL diluted 1:1, which helps a little, but it's still ~$.17 of developer per sheet. Of course, the film is $.85 - $1.00, so in the great scheme of things I'm not so worried about cutting down on that cost. Having to mix up more developer less often would be nice, though.

Paul Potera said:

As for film holders, you'll know first time through if you have a light leak. I don't think there is anything wrong with second hand ones as long as they look good. Check the slides real carefully as that is normally where you'll find a crack. It doesn't take much, a good smack will crack one. If the slide feels good going in, some resistance, then it is probably fine. If the felt is gone, you'll know first time out.

Click to expand...

I've had some that only leak light sometimes. If you've never used one before, you may not know how one is supposed to feel as it slides into place (hell... that varies by brand as far as I can tell). Most of the old holders I got off of eBay have metal slides, with no possibility of cracking. Instead I've found mechanical problems with the outside of the holder sometimes causing a bad light seal with the back of the camera and what looks suspiciously like light leaking in from the slot the slide goes into on the top of the holder.

If you're buying from eBay, you don't get to look things over before you pay, which makes things like this a lot more dicey.

the images in the linked page looked interesting. It would be nice to make a small view camera for my digital back and wide angle lenses.

is there a way to get more detailed details from them??

Leonardo
http://leonardobarreto.com/

Hi Leonardo,

the images in the linked page looked interesting. It would be nice to make a small view camera for my digital back and wide angle lenses.

is there a way to get more detailed details from them??

Click to expand...

If you are referring to the link I posted to 'the bulldog', they have the build instructions as a pdf towards the bottom of the page, afaik. It's actually made from mdf - (medium density fibreboard). If you varnish it, two or tree coats of polyurethane, it is then quite durable. There are better materials, but mdf does the job. Be careful of the dust, though, if you decide to build your own version. (dust - not on the film, but in your eyes and lungs when you cut mdf)

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,
have you used 4x5 view cameras? If not, perhaps you can borrow one and use it before you make any decisions on DIY. My first 4x5 in 2002 was a Graphic View which only cost me 200$ WITH half-decent standard lens, filmholders and even tripod head..... It did the job just fine until I got my Arca-Swiss B 5x7 (for only little more btw). If you do have the DIY bug, there are many ways to adapt things later (My Arca now has up to 3 standards, Linhof boards, 40" bellows and 4x5, 6x17, and 5x7 backs).
You can simply develop your negs a bit like paper in trays in the darkroom or in tubes (I use hangers and dip'n dunk mode).

Hi Carsten,

I tried around near here, but nobody I could find, including schools/colleges have film any more, not in lf, anyway. If I could decide on either going a 'standard' way, or my own way, then I could get on with it, but at the moment it will probably join the list of things I would like to have explored... Part of the challenge is to do it at lowest possible cost. Thanks for your reply, it has momentarily got me thinking in another direction.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,
how has your search gone?


erie

Hi Erie,

Thanks for asking, but not much to add, really. From time to time I look on ebay. I may try and find something in a second hand shop, I'd prefer to see it in the metal, first, so to speak. I have decided it will have to be 4x5, I think smaller roll film would not be much different than what I have done before, and much of the point of doing this, for me, is the doing of it, not just the results.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,

This looks like an excellent camera, but for that price have Will Thompson find you a used Crown Graphic or such.

Look on eBay too.

Busch Pressman is another name. One of those with a lens for less than $400. On agood day for half that!

Asher

Ray,
I do have an Aletta kit here, with manual and all, just needs to have some real bellows folded up for it and a few tuneup and tweaking type things, if you're interested.

I also have the following manufactured cameras for sale:

Toyo 45E, 45F
B&J Press



erie

Erie,

I've copied your post to BUY & SELL in Uptown.

To everyone who may not be fully aware, Uptown is where we introduce all buyers and sellers with the warning that anything there, photographs, discussion or photographs could be a good, fantastic or disappointing or even terrible experience! We do this as a way of both allowing greater freedom than other websites but also a much more emphasized responsibility for people to protect themselves.

Talk there might be offensive, someone who buys might use a false source of funds and and so forth.

So we try not to bypass the system.

So you follow what's going on, your post is, for tonight in two places!

Asher

Hi Erie,

Thanks for the offer of the Aletta. However, I'm in the UK, and I'm too tight to pay the delivery charges. From what I've seen (never actually having seen one in the flesh, so to speak) of these sort of cameras, they are easy enough to make, it's mainly the question of finding a lens of some sort, and film backs.

Perhaps, one day, I'll get inspired to get into it, instead of just planning and scheming.

Best wishes,

Ray

I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but here's my contribution.

1a. Camera. The bulldog is supposed to be pretty functional. You can probably pick up a cheap monorail for about $100 on ebay though. Look for Calumet, Cambo, and Graflex / Graphic View cameras (among others).

1b. The issue of lenses and film holders and camera backs.

Lenses can be anything from a found lens like a diopter lens or magnifying glass or old barrel lens to a modern multicoated Schneider or Rodenstock in a copal shutter. The former can be really cheap or even free (but you need to improvise a shutter - I use a black piece of paper). The latter can be anywhere from $100 to $2000 (realistically you'd be looking at $200 to $300 for a normal, modern lens). You also need a lens board which fits your camera, and the dimensions and materials of this will depend on what you get. A common style is the Linhof Technika style board. Another common type is the Sinar/Horseman variety. For my improvised diopter lens I made a lens board out of a piece of a cardboard beer case (which I glued to black paper for the inner flocking material, and cut a hole in for the diopter lens). I recently made a lens board for my 8x10 out of birch plywood. My 4x5 uses the linhof technika metal lens board style which I buy from badger graphic (google it) for $25 a piece ("shen hao" brand). In theory you can mount any lens to any type of lens board, but you have to get the right sized hole. Modern lenses come in standard sized shutters (copal 0, 1, and 3 being most common), and you can buy lens boards pre-drilled to fit these shutters. Other more unusual lenses or antiques might need a custom hole (you can usually buy blank lens boards and cut them out yourself or get a machinist to do it for a few bucks).

Film holders can be had for $10 to $30 a piece, depending on your luck that day on ebay. I got a batch of 6 holders for $11 from an ebay sale, sometimes the same thing will go for $75. Be patient and you'll snag a deal.

Camera backs (which hold the film holder) must have the ground glass in perfect alignment with the film plane. The critical measurement is the "T-distance" which might be listed on www.filmholders.com, if not you can probably look it up somewhere. Tolerance has to be fairly tight as you focus on the ground glass, then insert the filmholder and if the film is not in the same plane as the ground glass was your focus will be off. The rest of the design is up to you. There are three basic designs: 1. spring back, 2: bail back, and 3: slide in / slide out frames. Spring backs are by far the most common (springy tension holds the ground glass frame firmly against the back, and allows you to slip in a film holder which is then held in place by the spring action as well). Bail backs are similar but use a lever kind of thing instead of a spring to tighten or loosen the ground glass frame. Slide in / slide out frames involve just sliding the ground glass frame into a groove, then removing it and sliding a film holder into the same groove. I don't know if this would work with a standard 4x5 film holder but it probably wouldn't. I've seen it on ultra large format cameras like 16x20s and the likes.

You can probably buy a 4x5 back for a crown graphic or speed graphic or burke and james camera on ebay for $30 or so. You could build the rest of your camera around that. The other major problem is bellows, construction of which can be a big pain (I'm working out how to do it for an 8x10 restoration project and it's not a simple task). For these two reasons (camera back critical dimension & bellows) buying the bulldog kit or a used monorail on ebay is probably a worthwhile route.

3. Developing negatives in daylight tanks

Yes. You can buy expensive JOBO tanks or you can find a cheap unicolor or beseler 8x10 print drum on ebay. I have the unicolor 8x10 print drum (note that I really do mean print drum). Takes about 125 to 175 ml of chemistry (each of develop, stop, and fix) for each set of 4 negatives. Easy to load, easy to use, perfect development (I reduce development time about 10% as I use a motorized roller base, also by unicolor). There's a lot of good information about lenses and unicolor drum development in the index at http://www.largeformatphotography.info

Good luck. LF photography is really rewarding.

Ray West said:

Hi,

I've been thinking, on and off, of trying large format film, probably black & white, with a view to developing the negatives myself, and then either printing or scanning the results.

There is a simple camera kit here, http://www.camerabellows.com/Bulldog.html but second hand is OK. However, part of the thing is to do as much as possible myself, I have the tooling, I've been thinking of designing/building my own version, but maybe it's not worth the effort, or the time.

My questions are:-

What are the rough, ball park prices for lens and camera backs? (OK 'how long is a piece of string?') I'm thinking initially of, say, only 4*5. I expect anything larger would have much more expensive running costs, but I could be wrong. Cheap is good. (unless it's like the canon 'kit' lens).

Are the camera backs very complex in construction? They do not seem so to me, but I've never seen any of this gear in the flesh, at least not to take notice of. Are their any detailed drawings anywhere?

Is it possible to develop this size negative in a daylight tank, of some sort? I used to develop roll film OK, use a changing bag, Johnson/Patterson spiral loading daylight tank, etc.

Best wishes,

Ray

Click to expand...

BTW, Ortho film can be had. freestylephoto.biz sells it.

It's lith film, but you can develop it to continuous tones in weak dektol (e.g. a 1:9 dilution instead of the usual 1:3 dilution used for paper). I've only done it once, but it was kind of fun developing film under red safelight.

Hi Walter,

Thanks for your posts, and in particular the links. It is good to find confirmation of what I have been thinking - a good job you do not live near me ;-). I think, for bellows, the easy solution would be a bag, but the bulldog people supply bellows for anything, they may even sell the fabric. That just leaves the film holder end of it - whether to buy, or my own design.

Best wishes,

Ray.