Nathaniel Alpert
Member
No challenge jere, just a contribution to keep things going. A snap from Waimea Canyon on the island of Kauai.
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From Kauai
- Thread starter Nathaniel Alpert
- Start date
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Waimea Canyon on the island of Kauai: How can we miss gems like this????
I think we should scroll down and look out for orphan posts that have been overlooked!
First the picture is unusual. Although described as a "snap", it comes from a position to include grass foreground, the steep rising rough moss covered slop of a mountain and valleys and mountains way to the distance. Take at 16mm the lens has the ability to have the grass in sharp focus and deliver the scene from there to infinity.
The picture at first look has no compelling subject. No one flower, no unusual rock formation or waterfall. However, there is interest enough to call the eye back to the junction of the descending oblique line of the mountain and the thin horizontal line of trees in the mid-distance.
Now we can take in the whole picture again. The lush grasses in the foreground anchors the vertical image in a spectacular and unique fashion. It says that this place is well watered and really has fertile soil. So there must be a lot of insects and small animals there too! One can, in fact, almost make out a narrow line of water at the curved base of the rock face.
There's a wisp of cloud just visible giving a hint of a large place beyond the special restricted view.
I like the sense of solitude and apparent independence from our intervention.
Thanks Nathaniel for sharing!
Now let's look for more such gems!
Asher
I think we should scroll down and look out for orphan posts that have been overlooked!
Today I re-discovered this image, posted months back!
First the picture is unusual. Although described as a "snap", it comes from a position to include grass foreground, the steep rising rough moss covered slop of a mountain and valleys and mountains way to the distance. Take at 16mm the lens has the ability to have the grass in sharp focus and deliver the scene from there to infinity.
The picture at first look has no compelling subject. No one flower, no unusual rock formation or waterfall. However, there is interest enough to call the eye back to the junction of the descending oblique line of the mountain and the thin horizontal line of trees in the mid-distance.
Now we can take in the whole picture again. The lush grasses in the foreground anchors the vertical image in a spectacular and unique fashion. It says that this place is well watered and really has fertile soil. So there must be a lot of insects and small animals there too! One can, in fact, almost make out a narrow line of water at the curved base of the rock face.
There's a wisp of cloud just visible giving a hint of a large place beyond the special restricted view.
I like the sense of solitude and apparent independence from our intervention.
Thanks Nathaniel for sharing!
Now let's look for more such gems!
Asher
Allen Maestas
New member
I agree with all the Asher has said, a fascinating image, lovely indeed. If I might make a suggestion, nothing big, but if you possibly wanted to add a bit more contrast through levels and or curves, you would find that the textures, colors, lines, just about everything Asher stated above, would come into play faster and with more depth. I often appreciate a surreal look, or a painterly feel, but with this image I believe a more realistic look would bring forth the true beauty even better. Just my opinion, and not meant to offend, or to make this version wrong or inferior. Just a thought to stimulate 
Al
Al
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Allen,
Again, I'm jumping to the perhaps audaciious position idea that I actually understand Nathaniel's intent. So, for the purpose of this discussion, only, let's assume that I do have it right!
Let's look at the nature of this photograph. It's a design of geometric areas of different color which, as a whole, makes one complex rectangular colored object to be noticed. Yes it is dark. However, we don't know how bright it has to be yet. An image like this needs to be printed and then adjusted for that. Why? Part of the design is the unwillingness of the photographer to bring out any one structure as the center of interest. An S-Cuve might easily unbalance the jig-saw puzzle.
If one is over generous with using an S curve, the picture will diassemble in to unrelated componants. The mountainside rocks will "jump out" and "Boom!" it's in your face and doesan't fit in the picture. The image is now broken!
The very attractiveness of the picture is that the main subject, is a mystery! In fact, the future and the past is beyond the rock. One does not even see it. The special thing about the places like this is the feeling that only a few people have been there. So there's a question of what was here and beyond and what might be there now.
So that is my own take on the picture. Doubtless to print the image, it might need to be brighter and a minor S curve might be appropriate. However, this is also the fastest way to make printing it pointless.
This brings out the dilemma we have with seeing things on a screen. Just because it works in one medium doesn't mean it can in a final print and on any paper one chooses!
My $0.02!
Asher
Again, I'm jumping to the perhaps audaciious position idea that I actually understand Nathaniel's intent. So, for the purpose of this discussion, only, let's assume that I do have it right!
Let's look at the nature of this photograph. It's a design of geometric areas of different color which, as a whole, makes one complex rectangular colored object to be noticed. Yes it is dark. However, we don't know how bright it has to be yet. An image like this needs to be printed and then adjusted for that. Why? Part of the design is the unwillingness of the photographer to bring out any one structure as the center of interest. An S-Cuve might easily unbalance the jig-saw puzzle.
If one is over generous with using an S curve, the picture will diassemble in to unrelated componants. The mountainside rocks will "jump out" and "Boom!" it's in your face and doesan't fit in the picture. The image is now broken!
The very attractiveness of the picture is that the main subject, is a mystery! In fact, the future and the past is beyond the rock. One does not even see it. The special thing about the places like this is the feeling that only a few people have been there. So there's a question of what was here and beyond and what might be there now.
So that is my own take on the picture. Doubtless to print the image, it might need to be brighter and a minor S curve might be appropriate. However, this is also the fastest way to make printing it pointless.
This brings out the dilemma we have with seeing things on a screen. Just because it works in one medium doesn't mean it can in a final print and on any paper one chooses!
My $0.02!
Asher
Nathaniel Alpert
Member
Asher and Allen,
I had the feeling that this one was more successful in expressing what I felt than did the Otago shot. Asher has it pretty close to right... This is a most beautiful area, but fiendishly difficult to capture. The scale is massive and it is the absurd colors of everything that catches my eye. How to make something of it is the question! My solution was to put the grass at the edge of the cliff in absolutely sharp focus and capture the receding pattern of reds and greens. This was shot in 2004 with a D60 and the 16-35 L lens. I was using the lines in the cliffs and the little stream to guide the eye into the photo. The initial raw rendition was quite flat, perhaps due to the humid air. I did use a fairly storng S-curve to bring up the color and the contrast. But I wanted to hold the color variation in the dark tones, so I had to use some restraint. Push it too far and those dark tones go to black. I welcome all your suggestions for improving this shot.
I had the feeling that this one was more successful in expressing what I felt than did the Otago shot. Asher has it pretty close to right... This is a most beautiful area, but fiendishly difficult to capture. The scale is massive and it is the absurd colors of everything that catches my eye. How to make something of it is the question! My solution was to put the grass at the edge of the cliff in absolutely sharp focus and capture the receding pattern of reds and greens. This was shot in 2004 with a D60 and the 16-35 L lens. I was using the lines in the cliffs and the little stream to guide the eye into the photo. The initial raw rendition was quite flat, perhaps due to the humid air. I did use a fairly storng S-curve to bring up the color and the contrast. But I wanted to hold the color variation in the dark tones, so I had to use some restraint. Push it too far and those dark tones go to black. I welcome all your suggestions for improving this shot.
Don Lashier
New member
Hi Nathanial,
I like this shot a lot as it is. My first reaction was "this shot needs increased contrast in the shadows", but after experimenting a bit and comparing with the original I changed my mind. The shot has a fairly strong abstract aspect to it with sweeping bands of color, texture, and tonality. I believe this aspect is pretty well treated as it is. Also as "reality" the image has a certain mood to it that might be lost if the shadows were raised. I might consider cropping a little off the bottom. I think it would do particularly well as a large print.
- DL
I like this shot a lot as it is. My first reaction was "this shot needs increased contrast in the shadows", but after experimenting a bit and comparing with the original I changed my mind. The shot has a fairly strong abstract aspect to it with sweeping bands of color, texture, and tonality. I believe this aspect is pretty well treated as it is. Also as "reality" the image has a certain mood to it that might be lost if the shadows were raised. I might consider cropping a little off the bottom. I think it would do particularly well as a large print.
- DL
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nathaniel and Don,
I'm glad to hear I was on the right track! I find it to be most important to try and figure out what the photographer was trying to bring across to me rather than what I can create, unless that's the job of the excercise. Here we want to understand and to celebrate creativity.
This picture let's us do that!
As Don points out (and I have alluded to earlier), this is a rather abstract image whose richness lies in the "sweeping bands of color, texture, and tonality" (Don's words), rather than some particular component which is the "main subject" or point of interest.
The key subject of this picture is what you cannot see but might, could or would see under some other circumstances or if you wait. So in fact this picture, even though it has no giant black patch, has woven in it, an "empty space" that demands to be filled by our imagination.
An image does not need a defined main subject or protagonist!
Asher
I'm glad to hear I was on the right track! I find it to be most important to try and figure out what the photographer was trying to bring across to me rather than what I can create, unless that's the job of the excercise. Here we want to understand and to celebrate creativity.
This picture let's us do that!
As Don points out (and I have alluded to earlier), this is a rather abstract image whose richness lies in the "sweeping bands of color, texture, and tonality" (Don's words), rather than some particular component which is the "main subject" or point of interest.
The key subject of this picture is what you cannot see but might, could or would see under some other circumstances or if you wait. So in fact this picture, even though it has no giant black patch, has woven in it, an "empty space" that demands to be filled by our imagination.
An image does not need a defined main subject or protagonist!
Asher
Allen Maestas
New member
Excellent point of views!!!! Ahhh, yes this is what I like in a forum
Yes, yes I understand fully Asher and Nathaniel, and as I put in my comments, it was only offered up to stimulate, and I think that is what it did
I was not thinking brighter however, I was thinking darker and richer, (not an s-curve) but everyone has their taste, and it is obviously up to the artists to make that decision on where he/she wants the image to go. Now whether anyone else likes it, that is another story
I truly love this image...
Al
Yes, yes I understand fully Asher and Nathaniel, and as I put in my comments, it was only offered up to stimulate, and I think that is what it did
I was not thinking brighter however, I was thinking darker and richer, (not an s-curve) but everyone has their taste, and it is obviously up to the artists to make that decision on where he/she wants the image to go. Now whether anyone else likes it, that is another story
I truly love this image...
Al
Nathaniel Alpert
Member
Alan,Excellent point of views!!!! Ahhh, yes this is what I like in a forum
Yes, yes I understand fully Asher and Nathaniel, and as I put in my comments, it was only offered up to stimulate, and I think that is what it did
I was not thinking brighter however, I was thinking darker and richer, (not an s-curve) but everyone has their taste, and it is obviously up to the artists to make that decision on where he/she wants the image to go. Now whether anyone else likes it, that is another story
I truly love this image...
Al
Could you illustrate what you have in mind? Perhaps, cropping some of the grass,as suggested by DL. I am interested in making a nice print from this picture. The dark tones are a problem though. I have previously printed it small, on a luster paper. This seemed fine when you could hold it in the right light and see the important details in the mountainside. If this was printed 11x14 framed and wall mounted, the ambient light might be a problem if the picture was dark. On the other hand, it could well strengthen the design.
-N
Allen Maestas
New member
Interpreting through small JPEG's is not easy. If everyone had the same monitor, calibrated it the same way, along with having the same graphic card and settings, maybe then we could better fine tune images together. All I can go by is what I see on my monitor at home and at work. At home, my monitor is a CRT and calibrated and the image looks a bit flat. On my work monitor which is a brand new LCD and uncalibrated it looks to have plenty of contrast. Yes, cropping off some grass may help, but not a big deal for me. A photograph will never look its best unless it has a nice flood light or soft spotlight directed on it much like you see in galleries. I personally would not print my images with regard to ambient light, but again that is just me. Personally I think this image would do very well on a more expensive paper such as a cool tone picture rag, Somerset velvet, or better yet a Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308 which would hold all the details wonderfully.
Al
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nathaniel,
You picture is not a documentary photograph that needs to be evaluated on calibrated screens all over the place to give an opinion. Also one cannot do more than give broad feedback since the picture is unusually interesting but challenging to print.
That is what you have to do and for each paper the print will be different and the way to set up the file cannot be the same.
The bright greens are relatively easy to print but the darker areas need the best paper and ink and an HP print might look pretty different than an Epson print on the same paper. I'd print samples at 100% of the size you need but just small portions of the picture so it will be cheap. That way you cam see what you get and then know what you need to do.
I like the picture but I know it requires thought and adjustment to print well the dark areas as they might come out flat.
Asher
You picture is not a documentary photograph that needs to be evaluated on calibrated screens all over the place to give an opinion. Also one cannot do more than give broad feedback since the picture is unusually interesting but challenging to print.
That is what you have to do and for each paper the print will be different and the way to set up the file cannot be the same.
The bright greens are relatively easy to print but the darker areas need the best paper and ink and an HP print might look pretty different than an Epson print on the same paper. I'd print samples at 100% of the size you need but just small portions of the picture so it will be cheap. That way you cam see what you get and then know what you need to do.
I like the picture but I know it requires thought and adjustment to print well the dark areas as they might come out flat.
Asher