what inkjet printer?

[Nicolas Claris]

Hi all
as stated before, until now I have always given all my print to a pro lab and I still am very happy with their work and service...
But this is mainly for large and very large Lambda and Frontier proof prints.

They do very good fine art printing, but the cost is like hell!

Now, for my personnal work I would like to be able to print myself on fine art printing.
I guess I have a good knowledge of color spaces etc.

What i would like to get from you guys is good (I don't need bad ones!) advices on which printer to buy.
Paper would be fine art
size would be at least 50x75 cm (20'x30') maybe up to 80x120 (31.5'x47')

BTW, I'm not Rockfeller! nor Rotschild!

Thanks ;-)

[Asher Kelman]

Nicolas,

It's strange that there are no long answers already. I think we start with a 24" wide format printer. All the printers will give outstanding prints, Canon, Epson or HP.

If one reads Luminous Landscape, each time a new printer comes out it seems to be the best! However, what is happening is that if one gives attention to ones own preference for papers then I expect that the results might be different. I would want to send several files and have 8x10 portions of an image printed at the final dpi one would choose for a larger version, choosing just a portion. I'd send these files and have guys print the images for you on a number of the kinds of surfaces you like. (You might include at the border a set of standard colors that you can measure in the final print).

So for a modest outlay, you could get examples of the print output from different printers.

If I had to choose without any tests and just use information from reports, I'd go for the Epson or the HP, even though the Canon might ultimately be better since the service on the Canon, at least in the USA has not been stellar.

Do you want to switch between matte and gloss black?

I'm interested in the approach you take!

Asher

[Eric Hiss]

I'm really curious to know what people recommend here too. Since I've sold both my epson's (7600 and 4000) and swore that I would never buy another one I have been in a quandary about which to buy, the canon ipf5000/6000 or the new HP. Theres a lot of discussion about this on the LL printer forum and it seems from the profiles that the HP z3100 still sucks at pure saturated red on matte paper but is fine on glossy. Where it excels is with green and blue colors. So for your kind of shooting, boats in water I would think that it would be best. Problem is that its double the cost of the canon. I have been told that the older epson with the ultrachrome inks is still better for reds and yellows which would be better for someone doing flowers and such. No real easy answer I guess. I am leaning towards the HP z3100 with the PS option - but then of course I have no money so can't buy it (right now). I did buy the little brother to the z3100 the hp b9180 and it makes a very fine print. I've had a really great experience with it in terms of performance. Both epsons that I had seemed designed to waste paper and ink. I'd get one good print for every three attempts - so frustrating. All that said, some people really like their 3800 which will also make prints the size you want.

[Nicolas Claris]

Thanks Asher and Eric

I am not a forum zapper, so I'd like to find the right info here, I'm sure it will help a lot of others, and I'm faithful to OPF!

I don't think I could trust the test prints, as it also depends of my own configuration and the time those guys would spend or not printing them…
I'm looking for the matte printing as glossy will remain printed on Lambda.
I'll have a look on the HP z3100.... (the hp b9180, though a much better price;-) prints too small sizes for my wish)

BTW,
How do you send your pics to the printer? Thru Photoshop? or a dedicated "rip" software?
Do you send RGB or CMYK file to the printer? (I guess the latter…)

[Asher Kelman]

How do you send your pics to the printer? Thru Photoshop? or a dedicated "rip" software?
Do you send RGB or CMYK file to the printer? (I guess the latter…)

Suprisingly, Nicolas, one send the file in the working RGB, not CMYK! Very different than using commercial Linotype CMYK printers. All the printers we talk about here must receive RGB to work best. Also have Photoshop control everything and at least with Epson, of course print from Printr with review aand then select the profile for the paper with that particular printer.

In the Epson dialog box, choose "no color adjustmeent" or else!

I don't know the HP or Canon dialog boxes, sorry.

However, at least the 3 of us have the same questions as to which printer to get for reasonable sized prints.

Asher

[Paul Bestwick]

I don't print that large & use an Epson 4800. The prints out of that on fine art photo rag are amazing.
I assume the larger format printers are no different.

[BobSmith]

I have experience with wide format Epsons. I'm currently using a 9800 and 9600. Given the size you want and the fact that you want to print on fine art papers, I'd say try and find a good deal on a used 7600. They can be had quite inexpensively now. The main improvements in the newer generation printers concern printing to photo type papers. They are also a bit faster. If you don't mind the slightly slower speed, the older x600 Epsons produce prints on fine art stocks that are every bit as good as what will come out of the latest models.

If you have the space and can afford the higher upfront cost, the 44" wide printers are a better deal. They print small prints just as efficiently as large ones. My 9800 probably stays loaded with roll of 10" paper for cranking out 8x10s more than any other size. The sale of a small handful of large prints will easily offset the added cost of the larger printer. Having the extra size will allow you to take on print jobs that you'd otherwise have to outsource.

[Rachel Foster]

The Epson 4800 looks great but out of my budget range. What would be people's recommendations for under $500? (I know, I want the moon AND the stars.)

[Nicolas Claris]

Hi Bob
Thanks for the post, a second hand Epson 9600 is one of the routes that I intend to follow…
I've been told that they do work very well with FUJI Fine Art Phot Rag Paper…

Rachel, the price of the printer is a thing, the other is the cost of inks and paper…

Thanks all for your input, still need good other infos or advices!

[Rachel Foster]

Ink, especially!

I confess I've been doing the Sam's Club printing. When I get better I'll want finer prints, for sure.

[Nicolas Claris]

Any thoughts about the Epson Stylus Pro 7400?
The price is about 2400 € (+VAT)

[Aaron Strasburg]

I own the Canon iPF5000, with which I'm quite pleased. I just read that George Barr isn't terribly pleased (http://georgebarr.blogspot.com/2007/09/uwe-on-hdr.html) with his and admittedly gloss differential can be a problem. The iPF5100 is supposed to improve that. For matte papers the iPF5000 is still quite good, so it may be a good choice for Nicolas.

Red River papers doesn't care (http://www.redriverpaper.com/blog/2006/11/hp-b9180-and-red-river-paper_10.html) for the HP B9180 paper feed, so they don't recommend their heavier papers for use with that printer (at least not with the cassette). LuLa has a review of the new baryta paper (http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Surface2.shtml) from Harman (Ilford), and they noted that paper was scratched by the z3100. All of the older Epsons require flushing when switching between gloss and matte black, which isn't cheap.

For Rachel, some like the new Epson 1400. It's dye-based and quite inexpensive. I'm not sure about print longevity. Ink costs are much higher with the smaller printers if you print much volume.

One of the big advantages of the 17" or smaller printers is the availability of a cassette from which to feed smaller sheets. The 24" printers all (afaik) require sheets to be fed singly.

Nothing is perfect. Pretty much every printer involves tradeoffs.

Aaron

[Eric Hiss]

Hi Nicolas,

Definitely something to consider about these printers will be costs to operate. I had two epson wide formats and they were really thirsty for ink. I used a Epson 4000 for cut sheet prints and it could do a 17x22 inch sheet (sorry I know you and the rest of the world is doing cm). Problem with that printer and I believe the 4800 will be similar is that it had so many hiccups with nozzle clogs and wierd paper feed problems that it always wasted about 3 pieces of paper and ink before I could get a satisfactory print. I had better luck with the Epson 7600 24inch printer but it too was very inefficient with ink and paper. When i would make a print, it had a habit of rolling out a fair bit more paper than requested before cutting. Very annoying! You will see that you will spend more money on ink and paper than the printer itself in a short while.

To this end, I am very happy with my HP b9180 printer and I hope that is a good indication of what its big brother the z3100 will do (actually I read as much). I've lost very little in terms of paper - it works very smoothly and has been very economical with ink. While I understand you don't want to spend a lot of time on the internet - you should look for operational costs. I think the HP wins here and canon is second.

Also you should really consider what kind of prints you want to make, on what paper and colors. I have heard that the Canon is still the best in black and white, with HP close behind but both Epson and Canon are getting better results with saturated color prints on rag papers (most fine artists use rag, though I don't know why). If on the other hand you use glossy papers then the HP is reportedly best.

I got really fine prints from my Epson but it was a very frustrating experience - I wasted a ton of time, ink and paper getting it to behave. One day it would work, next day not - using the exact same procedures. I swear I will never buy another one. YMMV

From what I have seen of your work, you will do best with the HP with glossy or satin paper and I think that while the cost going in will be higher, you will make it up in saved ink and time. I also believe the HP will be easier to operate if you have not done much printing. The canon seems to really sing in experienced printers hands.

And as far as other software to print with. I think if you are on a PC you should really take a good look at Qimage. Its a superb program and cost is less than $100. If you are a mac...hmmm... I bought Colorbyte's Imageprint RIP for my epson 4000 - cost was $850 but it was worth it because it bypassed the BS epson drivers and the printer quit wasting paper at least. Print quality was higher too. But while you can get Imageprint for the PC, Qimage may do most of what you want for much, much less.

Now to the user that had $500 and wanted the moon - maybe look for a used epson 4000, ipf 5000 or try the hp deisgnjet 130. All are going to get you great looking prints - but at much reduced cost. Look out for used epsons - make the seller show you a nozzle check printout to make sure there are no clogs as they had real problems. HP 130 was a really great printer but prints had slightly less longevity and inks were water based - so if someone spilled coffee on a print it would be destroyed. But it makes very fine prints otherwise.

Hope this helps,
Eric

[Alain Briot]

Hi Nicolas,

I would not get a used 9600. The K3 inks in the 9800 and the new inkset in the just to be released 9880 are far better (more contrast, higher gamut, etc.). Get at least a 9800 or best get the 9880 when it is released. Getting the same image printed on the 9800 and 9600 will prove my point.

Alain

[Nicolas Claris]

Thanks Eric
I'll have to dig your long (thanks!) post and read it carefully, to get all of it…

have a good day!

[Nicolas Claris]

Thanks Alain

coming from you it is a very reliable advice, but as stated above, I may need more experience with inkjet printing before buying one of these expensive machines…
Also I've almost never sold prints to private persons only to "commercial" clients and these are glossy prints with a Durst Lamda (that I won't try, technicaly and economically, to compete).
As of today I've no idea of how many prints I'll be able to sell "as art"… It is the beginning of a move in my own marketing strategy, and I wonder…

Thanks again Alain, please convey a Salute to all the Navajo People and Land for me…

[Georg Baumann]

Here my 2 cents, from research alone, no practical experience with any of them, I came to the conclusion that there is a lot left to be desired, whether Epson, HP or Canon, they all have their downsides and in some cases this can be costly.

What you might find interesting on the HP Z series is also the ability to give you your costs on a regular basis. There is an application built in that calculates each and consecutive print costs and can export this into an excel spreadsheet. This I find a very useful application to have on board.

Canon, I would not touch with a bargepole at the moment, while they have promising results, their service politics is questionable to say the least.

HP has the advanatge of much lower maintenance costs over Epson, and changing a printhead is a job you can do, no need to call a service technician. On top, the thermal inkjet technology avoids clogging, it literally is clogging free (From conversations with HP Owners).

The new Epsons, well, they had to react to HP's 12 ink Z series. But be aware that the latest technology in their line only comes to the full extend in the largest Stylus Pro11880, a 64" expensive monster.

Bottom line, when buying into a Large Format Inkjet, assuming that you can run those costs via your business account, I also would advise to get a "care pack", milage may vary between the different companies, basically it is an extended warranty package.

[Nicolas Claris]

Thanks for your input Georg

Funny, actually I'm looking at the HP Designjet Z3100 (24 inches paper roll) - a bit pricey though…

[Asher Kelman]

The new Epsons, well, they had to react to HP's 12 ink Z series. But be aware that the latest technology in their line only comes to the full extend in the largest Stylus Pro11880, a 64" expensive monster.
!
Hi Georg,

Where do you get this from? I'd think with the same xxx80 suffix, the'd have the same tachnology!!! What did you find was missing on the lesser monsters?

Asher

[Georg Baumann]

!
Hi Georg,

Where do you get this from? I'd think with the same xxx80 suffix, the'd have the same tachnology!!! What did you find was missing on the lesser monsters?

Asher

AFAIK, the 11880 is the only one that requires no ink swapping, 4880, 7880 and 9800 still need to swap black inks when changing between art/rag papers and glossy photo papers.

[Georg Baumann]

Thanks for your input Georg

Funny, actually I'm looking at the HP Designjet Z3100 (24 inches paper roll) - a bit pricey though…

This is a stunning maschine, I have seen it in action and was very impressed by the results.

You might find these links interesting:

http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/HP-Z3100-review.shtml

If I'd be you, I would try to budget for an enhanced care pack, of course, checking out what exactly is covered by the enhanced warranty.

What price did you find out so far?

[Nicolas Claris]

The Epson 4800 looks great but out of my budget range. What would be people's recommendations for under $500? (I know, I want the moon AND the stars.)

LoL!

in French we say (in your case) "the butter, the money from the sale of the butter AND the farmer"!

[Georg Baumann]

The Epson 4800 looks great but out of my budget range. What would be people's recommendations for under $500? (I know, I want the moon AND the stars.)

I am not familiar with US prices but I think in this price range the maximum possible would be A3+ printsize.

Do a search for
- Hewlett-Packard Photosmart Pro B9180
- Epson R2400
- Canon Pro 9000.

Out of the bunch I would choose the HP any day.

[Nicolas Claris]

What price did you find out so far?

Hi Georg

sorry for the late answer…

As of today 4293 Euros + VAT (priceminister.com)… still a lot of money but I don't want a bad printer ;-)

Still no decision…

[Nicolas Claris]

Does anyone has any experience with the DesignJet Z2100gp - 24" + HP Advanced Profiling Solution ?

Cost is a bit less than the Z3100… 2815 Euros + VAT

I could afford this one…

The Z2100 uses the Vivera Pigment 8 inks, while the Z3100 uses 12 inks

[Nicolas Claris]

So I'll have to make a choice between:

HP DesignJet Z3100 (24" & colorimeter) = 3933 Euros (ex VAT) grand-formats.com
EPSON Stylus Pro 7800 = 3300 Euros (ex VAT) grand-formats.com apparently no delivery B4 end October…
HP DesignJet Z2100 (24" & colorimeter) = 2624 Euros (ex VAT) grand-formats.com

Any clever input ;-)?

[Nicolas Claris]

And as a reminder to the potential "helpers":
Main project is to print fine art paper, both cold (sea/sky and hot (interiors, wood) colored (coloured) images.
No B&W ;-0
but some with very deep blacks (night shots)

[Nicolas Claris]

A quick reply to myself… for everybody's info:

I gave 8 images to a pro camera shop in Bordeaux last Friday, to do some test on their brand new HP Designjet Z3100…

It's a no way for me, all the midtone reds and warm colors are washed-out, dark colors are compressed with a lot of missing details and washed-out darks
warm blacks and greys, they become bluer).

Thanks Asher;, I finally done what you told (tests), you made me save 4000 Euros!

Of course the comparison is done with screen view of the images but MOSTLY with Frontier prints made from the same files.
In both cases I asked the files to be printed with printer's default settings…

Frontier was on Fuji Satin paper
HP was on HP fine art paper

[Asher Kelman]

Great Nicolas!

Could you perhaps ask, for example guys like Jack Flesher (who has an Epson K3 printer) to help or Tony Bonanno (who uses the Canon 5000)?

Asher

[Nicolas Claris]

Hi Asher

It seems that your post does itself ask !-)

More seriously, this experience let me think that I was quite right before this last month, and will have my files printed from my usual lab on their Epson, even if they are more expensive than the shop which as the HP, the result I get from their machine and their know-how is well worth the 4000 Euros investment with a machine that will make too much time (even the Epson, I guess).

With that money saved, I'll be able to buy some new lens for the upcoming 1DS3…-)

There's always something to learn from "not good experiences" too!

[Thomas Krueger]

My Z3100 prints (with Qimage) exactly what I see on my color calibrated monitor. I'm happy with this "daylab".

To start printing the discussions in the Printer forum of Luminous Landscapes were a great help.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showforum=6

[Nicolas Claris]

Bonsoir Thomas

Thanks for the link, but these last days I've read so many good and bads in different foras, about all printers that, trying not to repeat what I wrote above, photography is a real job and needs know-how… exactly as printing does…

I dont want to fall on the tennis player game: it's not the printer, it's the ink, no it's not the ink it's the paper…

I wished to do the printing myself, but I better keep going on photography and have my usual lab print for me and deliver 95% of time what I expect from my files.
Time and mind saver!

I am very keen to have the very best details and accuracy on my prints for my very demanding professional clientele, I don't have time to waste on this kind of "errance" and as I have an easy solution @ 10 minutes from my office, why should I bother?

Thanks all for your advices, I'm sure they will help others…

[Nicolas Claris]

Please, don't misunderstand me in the post above:
If I'm not able to print correctly it is my fault, I just don't want to spend so many times to learn this.
In no means my purpose was to say that other photographers are less demanding than I am… or that their photography doesn't desserve the best prints!

I'm just out of the game on this one :-(

Better to be clear :-)

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Guys,

It seems pretty straightforward. different people print the files without any tweaks, just ignoring the appearance on their screens. They just have to state what profile they used, the paper and the inks!

That is pretty basic and the results will help us all!

Asher

[Ray West]

Hi Nicolas,

Thanks for the explanation, extra information. I was not aware you were actually wanting to do more of the printing than what I thought you wanted to do. (I thought you were after just quick 'proofs?', a4's or a bit bigger.) You have said many a time that your printing guy knows what you want. That is entirely different to you knowing what you want, and having to get there yourself - horses for courses...

Best wishes,

Ray

[Thomas Krueger]

In my opinion you can go with Epson, Canon or HP, each printer has its pro and con. The Z3100 was my choice because of the inbuild color profiling unit from Gretag Macbeth. And the test about lightfastness and ozone resistance confirmed my choice to go with the HP Vivera inks.

Starting long time ago in a fotolaboratory after beginning with b&w as a hobby, printing has to be done by my own. As looking long times ago on the negative under the enlarger, now I'm looking at the raw file in front of the monitor with Silkypix, DXO or Lightroom.
And when it comes to printing I want to push the button to confront the print immediately with the picture on the monitor. It's like in the darkroom, working and working with the tools of today you get the experience, like in the darkroom years ago. This autumn there are the new baryte papers available from several companies, and this is another step to better prints.