A Problem: Shooting for Praise

I've been troubled by something I've observed in myself and I'd like to hear how others feel about this. Has anyone else run into a tendency to shoot for praise?

I'm new, I'm uncertain, my self-confidence is fragile (re: photography). When I shoot something that garners praise...I like it. I really like it. The problem? Will that skew my "vision" to producing similar things for that praise? That's how sitcoms came into being. I don't want to be a "sitcom photographer," one who produces that which garners public acclaim but has no inherent value.

If I'm vaguely conscious of this, I think it's a sure bet it's a not-negligible presence in my unconscious. And yet, feedback is needed to help me work on weaknesses, capitalize on strengths.

What to do? Show one's work to very few, trusted people? Those who will acknowledge what's good about it and not stroke for the sake of stroking?

I need to clarify something: I was referring to not showing the work to friends and family as well as on photography boards where the responses range from the thoughtful to the inane.

Hi Rachel,

What do you want to shoot for? I don't think many folk do anything so others will say 'that's awful, you are the worse ever'.

Now, praise here, wrt photo's? Well, you will as a newbie, get encouragement, unless you are so damn good you are a threat. After that, it is expected to see steady improvement, at least by some of us.

The first step in solving any problem, is to recognise a problem exists. So, well done, lots of marks for honesty. Very few folk post images on opf for praise.

So, having found your problem, what are you going to do about it? You've mentioned a couple of solutions in your last sentences. Another may be to show fewer, more selective images here, with more explanation of how or why you have done it that way. But, you then need to follow up the suggestions made, so that those who offer advice for free, get to see the reward of their efforts. (for example, the earlier image of your husband, a few gave advice, Tim Armes even wrote a special layer tutorial for you, more or less.) The number of hours you have taken from us is considerable. You have done nothing with that thread since 13th Sept... Most folk will put in the effort where they can see some results, I hope you understand this, eventually you will be posting to a vacuum.

This is just my personal view, others may differ. If you don't want to hear an answer, then don't ask a question ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

Thank you, Ray. I appreciate the comments and the honesty, as well as opening up the dialogue.

Yes, I've worked with the photoshop image. I'm struggling and won't post til I find something that is reasonable. I'm also frustrated and afraid of photoshop. I'm not used to having to work that hard (so believe me, that alone is enough challenge to ensure I'll master it; but it will likely take longer than you or others would like).

I've repeatedly said how grateful I am to the community for the time they've given me. My learning style may be incomprehensible to others, I do understand that. My only response is "Watch me. Withhold judgment and watch." Again, I may take longer than others, but perhaps I'm slower overall. Whatever. Just...watch me. In six months, let's revisit the question of whether or not I'm listening.

"This is just my personal view, others may differ. If you don't want to hear an answer, then don't ask a question ;-)"

When have I ever shied away from hearing the hard stuff? Enough said. I am open to constructive criticism at any time. I am grateful for it.

I am also trying to contribute to the forum now in the limited ways I can (e.g., the philosophy of photography threads). As I learn I will contribute more. Here's a promise: Before all is said and done, you will learn from me...maybe very few things, but I promise: I will teach you something eventually.

So, restrict whom I share the work with, post here with a very pointed, narrow reason. Thank you.

Rachel,

Let’s face it - everyone loves to receive praise - it is part of human nature. As you are just starting out in photography, there is a possibility of being skewed slightly towards photographing subjects that garner more praise because of the feeling it brings. But are you happy photographing the subjects that receive the most amount of praise? If so, then no problem.

As you mention that you’ve been “troubled by something I’ve observed in myself...” - well that makes it seem that the photos that receive the most praise may not be your favorite subjects? If so, you have to determine what makes you happier - photographing what others like, or what you like. Chances are you will become more successful photographing what you like because your heart will be in it more.

You also have to consider the source of the praise - family members tend to give too much praise. Forums can be too critical or too lenient. The best criticism may come from those experienced with the same type of photography you are interested in.

But be critical yourself - give yourself praise on your photos that you enjoy, and critically examine those that don’t seem to work. If you praise yourself from time to time, you may find that being skewed towards praise is a good thing because you continue photographing things you enjoy.

Thanks!

So far I've only shot things that interest me. I think what concerns me is because I'm insecure that I have any ability, I'm worried that any nascent talent I may have might be contaminated by playing to an audience.

Last night I visited a friend who is a brilliant amateur photographer. He also says shoot only that which you love. I see the wisdom in that. Incidentally, the only photo of mine he will say is good is one of my son.

He refuses to discuss photography with me. I've expressed my admiration of his work. His response has been "I don't want praise. I want to shoot my vision. Give me criticism or shut up." I understand that now, but I haven't his security (or his ability).

I can see how easy it would be to play to the audience. Still, I have to learn. Some (much?) of what I shoot now is crap.

I've been accused of over-analyzing and "analysis paralysis" in the past. Has anyone else faced this?

Shoot for praise

I shoot for myself.

I know, sometimes the instant that I push the shutter release, whether the picture is up to my standards.

When I post pictures, it is for 2 reasons: 1. To share them with my friends, and 2. To gain criticism so I can improve my work.

I can get all the praise I need/want by showing my pictures to my friends, all of whom think I'm the "Worlds Greatest Photographer(tm)" which I know I'm not.

I would prefer to get 10 critical comments from qualified people than one "Great picture..." kind of comment. I'd rather have my picture connect with one person and complete my "arc of intent" than to garner superficial praise from dozens.

That all said, praise in necessary, especially in early learning to build confidence. But you must decide whose praise to trust. In general if folks here on OPF think it's a good picture, I think you can have confidence that it's a good picture.

Rachel, until the facility of 'Forums' came along, what would an amateur do for critique? Some may join a camera club, some of them can be very competitive, but mostly repetative and obvious with their 'monthly themes' that produce photographs of predictable desaturated coloured landscapes or whatever the current trend may be. Now there is the 'instant fix' route of the Forum, where you can show a picture and immediately get feedback, what you really need to ask yourself is 'a) would I put up a picture knowing it isnt a run of the mill, and chancing the majority 'not getting it' b) when you picked up your camera did you shoot with your own eye, or with a vision of what you felt the majority of people would like. If the answer is yes to the first, then you are surely on the right track, if the answer is yes to the second, then you will never be anything other than an amateur in every sense of the word.

Rachel

You have cut to the heart of the most difficult question for a new photographer who is serious and thoughtful about their work. How do I get reliable feedback on which I can base my actions as I drive my art forward.

While forums can provide useful feedback, they have two serious limitations. The first is that the person commenting may not know what your photographic objectives/goals/philosophy are, so their comments are based on the kind of photography they do and their objectives. The second is that in most cases, you have little information as to the competency of the commentator as an art critic.Most forums are inhabited by gear heads (this one being a major exception) who want to talk about gizmos and make inane comments about images.

I have found a solution to this problem that works for me, but it might not work for you. I study with Ben Lifson. You can visit Ben's web page at www.benlifson.com. You can also review a detailed write-up of Ben teaching approach at Sean Reid's subscription web page www.reidreviews.com.

Having someone who is an experienced art critic and takes time to understand what it is that you are trying to accomplish (even helping you figure that out) accelerates your growth enormously.

Mike

Thank you all. I've been thinking a great deal about this and I've come to my conclusion (at least for now).

I need to, as several wiser shooters have said, shoot for me. That means I have to trust my own sense of what is good. Others can help a great deal with suggestions on how to improve, and learning the mechanics and technical points is necessary; but it has to come from within me and be evaluated by me. Otherwise, I'm little more than the copy machine found in every office everywhere.

I don't want to be a copy machine. My first goal is to please me, isn't it? That is the only way I'll develop as a unique, original contributer. Becoming a unique, original photographer is the goal, but it simply may never be. So be it. The value is in the journey, not the end result.

If I achieve my goal, good. If not, fine. It won't happen overnight, and that's something I need to accept as well.

Praise me, pillory me, whatever floats your boat. I am and will always be grateful for suggestions. I am and will always be appreciative of anyone who takes time to offer help/criticism whether it's spot on or not. While photography is a solo endeavor, when it comes down to it, it -- as any artistic expression -- is a form of communication.

Communication and the human interaction is, at the most fundamental level, what matters. Ironic, this. Photography is a solo endeavor that has communication at its heart.

Again, thanks all. I'm off to ponder and philosophize and shoot.

Rachel Foster said:

...Otherwise, I'm little more than the copy machine found in every office everywhere....I don't want to be a copy machine.... .....
....
Praise me, pillory me, whatever floats your boat. I am and will always be grateful for suggestions. .....
...
Again, thanks all. I'm off to ponder and philosophize and shoot.

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Hi Rachel,

This sounds great. I am glad to read the you've come to terms with yourself on this.
May I make a suggestion?

Shoot, ponder and philosophize in that order <smile>

Cheers,
PS: speaking of machines: maybe you'll meet your own "deus ex machina" <grin>

Post deleted in complete and utter frustration with photoshop.

It ain't going to happen.

Thanks, Cem. Can a deux ex machina do photoshop for me? (Feeble joke.)

What a wonderful question, and great replies. Quite thought-provoking.

If I may, Rachel, this about the 4th time I've noticed that you've used the term "technical" when methinks you really mean "basic". Understanding of aperture, shutter speeds, ISO (formally ASA for us oldsters), focus, (to name what comes to mind) are not "technical at all, they are rather the "basics" of really understanding photography.

Here's a silly allusion, sort of like learning to drive a car with no care to learn the functions of the accelerator pedal, brake pedal, gear shift selector...because you consider those aspects "technical". Were such the case, I'd prefer some sort of amber alert if you were on the road within 200 miles of me. (humour, just humour)

This happens all the time when moving from a point and shoot to a DSLR. For perspective, it still irks me when I make boo-boo's with my DSLR's.

One more thing, reading between the lines, I'm getting the impression that you seem to think that most shots taken by advanced, even Pro shooters are perfect. Uh uh. In controlled studio shoots, better percentage...perfect all, nope. This forum is filled with photographers advanced beyond my wildest aspirations. Would anyone care to chime in with a statement that over 90% of your shots are up to your own standards?

Rachel, you are perhaps being too hard on yourself. Anyone care to chime in and agree, ......or scold me? I see Rachel as a photographer with great potential, simply expecting too much too soon.

Out of the 6,000 (small number, I know) shots I have bothered to save in past 2-3 years, maybe 50 have potential. Maybe.

Does this help or hinder, Rachel?
-Greg

Thanks, Greg. As usual, you have it nailed.

And re: photoshop. It's just not coming and I'm indulging in a temper tantrum. I figure at age 51, I can get away with...well, hell, nothing to be honest. So, I'm going to pout for a while and then be a grownup again.

Rachel I've been through Photoshop hell and came thru it just fine! It's a very daunting program to try and get results right off the bat.

What helped me tremendously were two books from Scott Kelby of NAAP (National Assoc. of Photoshop Professionals).

The two books were:

1. Photoshop book for Digital Photographers

2. Down and Dirty tricks.

He has them available for whatever version of PS you're using. The beauty of the books is he takes a lot of common tasks that you might want to do and breaks each of them down into a very doable project with very easy to understand instructions and screen shots to show you the menu's etc.

In the beginning it saved me. I could look in the book, find something I liked or wanted to do and it walked me thru every step. From there I had a basic working knowledge of PS and could use the help section to find what I needed or search on line for specific tutorials.

I am by no means a PS guru or expert, but I can now figure things out pretty quickly having used his reference books. Highly recommend any of the Kelby books to help your initial learning curve.

Jeff

Now that's helpful! Again, thanks.

As to shooting for praise? No longer an issue. This is good. I think it's good. Disagree? Fine. It's still good.



I went out with the intent to shoot crap in order to break my paralysis of trying too hard. Measures up as far better than crap for me.

Looks more like a spider web than crap to me. lol

Seriously Rachel I sometimes try to capture spider webs too, especially when the light is low and at the right angle. I thought I had one yesterday morning shortly after dawn but it was just enough out of focus that I deleted the shot.

Haa! I needed that!

It's about the 20th web I've shot in the past two days. The download shocked me. I guess we've all gotten frustrated and discouraged. I needed this shot and I needed the laugh. Thanks.

Rachel, please don't confuse getting the shot right to begin with ....with learning PS (or the editor of your choice). IMO, two different animals, both equally important, though, as you move on.

Everyone is intimidated by PS at first, as mentioned above by me and others. You're being too hard on yourself. Please, please don't squelch your natural abilities. This stuff doesn't hit us overnight. Consider this (as an allusion), if it did, the folks in your stats class would get what you know in a few days. Doesn't happen, does it?

-Greg

You're right, Greg, I am lumping everything together, and I'm doing so unfairly.

Hell, hasn't anyone else here ever gotten frustrated? I know what the problem is and I know the solution. I'm going to quit trying for a few days. I'm going to aim to shoot garbage, in fact. Set goals you can meet, you know?

Thanks all. The thread has been helpful and served it's purpose. Now I think I'll get my camera out and shoot my feet or my dirty clothes hamper or something.

Rachel do you think maybe you are trying too hard in your pursuit, maybe to your detriment? Do you think you have an 'eye' for Photography? After all Photography is not a Science, regardless of what many might say, the camera is the tool that helps you portray your message, if it was just 'science' then anyone would be able to be a Photographer. Enjoy it, you have the tool, you have the eye, your search for the ultimate Photograph is wholly subjective and if you shoot to please the masses and then yourself secondary, then you might aswell put the camera down and take up cross stitch. Why are you setting yourself goals? Dont tell me you have no subject matter, it's in front of your eyes every time you go anywhere, the bathroom, kitchen, school run, supermarket, city centre, local park, walk two steps to your right and there will be something to Photograph, so why stop a while? The Photographer who shot 'The Migrant Mother' said she made her camera part of her daily life, she would put on her sweater, her pants, her shoes and her camera around her neck, she believed it was the only way to record life as it happenned, that the best Photographs needed no rehearsal. I tend to agree.

Annie

I've been trying far too hard. In fact, I took the joy out of it.

I'm giving myself permission to shoot junk. It's ok if I wind up with a load of junk. I'm going to try to improve, but if I don't, that's ok, too.

When I shoot, I'm going to think about what it is that I "see," and then how to make the camera reproduce what I see. I think art requires a communication of emotion, as well. So I'm going to pay attention to the emotion that the object evoked in me.

I'm going to learn the basics (how the camera works and how to make it do what I want) and I'm going to give myself permission to do it in my own time.

I'm going to bring the joy back to shooting. And I'm going to shoot my drummer...er, mixed metaphor. I mean march to my own drummer and shoot what I feel moved to shoot.

The work has to come from within me. Others' input can help in letting me know if I've communicated what I meant to and also suggestions as to where it can be altered to improve that communication. Photography is communication and I have concluded that it is the communication of emotion.

So, I'm going to think about the right things now. And I'm going to stop worrying if I can create art. And I'm going to have fun again.

Rachel I put my money where my mouth is and stepped two steps to the right of me, landed where my daughters were playing dolls heads, so I nicked them off them, and shot the heads, cant think of a title but I found it odd and amusing at the same time. Just wanted to prove a point I guess, and to spur you on a little. Took these five minutes ago.

Annie

Having fun...

Rachel Foster said:

...So, I'm going to think about the right things now. And I'm going to stop worrying if I can create art. And I'm going to have fun again.

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Hi Rachel,

Just in case you have forgotten what having fun looks like (it happens to me every now and then), here is a pointer in the right direction




Cheers,

Thanks all. I suspect some people actually do understand all of this. It helps.

I am very new in this too and I know exactly what you mean by "shooting for praise". Of course I like to get praise from people who I consider to be very good photographers. It feels good and makes you feel like you fit into the "community" of photographers out there. But there have been times when I have been told a photograph was good when I didn't think it was that great... or vice versa... I've been told a photograph wasn't that great when I really like it myself. I think art is something that you feel inside when you look at your photographs (or others' photographs). Go with your own feelings.

That's my two-cents
~~Nicole~~

Rachel Foster said:

When I shoot, I'm going to think about what it is that I "see," and then how to make the camera reproduce what I see. I think art requires a communication of emotion, as well. So I'm going to pay attention to the emotion that the object evoked in me.

I'm going to learn the basics (how the camera works and how to make it do what I want) and I'm going to give myself permission to do it in my own time.

Click to expand...

I had the same problem..and I suppose still do. I learned a lot from Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure". It's perfect for me as I have no formal photography training. The book has examples of every concept he's teaching along with the camera settings used to achieve the final product. This speaks directly to learning the basics.

It's easy to take a photo that is the technically correct but it's not the right exposure to capture the moment. I kept taking shots that were technically exposed properly but not what I wanted to convey...very frustrating.

When I had my film camera I used the DOF button to see what I was going to end up with. I picked apertures for DOF and then just played with the shutter speed to get a good idea of what I wanted and trusted MY vision.

I've gone back to that with the digitals now. I also cheat!! The camera is definetly smarter than I am when it comes to capturing certain light conditions. So I take a shot on Program mode to see what the camera suggests is correct.

I know that on my 5D the ISO is 400 in P and then I look at what the camera has selected for aperture and shutter speed. I work forward from that suggestion to finesse the look I'm trying to convey or properly expose what I see at that moment. It eliminates a lot of frustration because the camera has given me a starting point.

I would also suggest you look at Adobe Lightroom as your main photo editing program. Every menu you need is clearly shown with no frustrating menu diving to find what you're looking for. If needed you can export to PS for any masking etc. For someone new to digital I personally find it far easier than PS with equal results.

Also, if I may suggest, cut yourself some slack. Photography isn't putting groceries on your table it's a hobby. A hobby is supposed to decrease your stress levels..lol

Jeff

(still having fun and cheating all the way!)

Thanks all.

I think it's time I consider pursuing photography as a more solitary endeavor. Wish me luck.

Rachel Foster said:

Thanks all.

I think it's time I consider pursuing photography as a more solitary endeavor. Wish me luck.

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Hi Rachel,

What has just happened? So many helpful and caring people in this forum have done their best to help you and answer your questions. Was that worth nothing, really?

Good luck.

Kind regards,