Dumping the 5D for better focus or more pixels?

I use the 5D a lot. It's lightweight, more subtle, and the color and tonality are both outstanding. I'm wondering about the new 1DsIII. Sure, the 1DsIII has an abundance of pixels, great DR and better focus. So what's not to like?

Right now, I'm so frustrated with the sometimes erratic focus of the 5D compared to my 1DII.

However, the 1D series bodies are heavier and bulky! I'd get a 16MP great focusing 5DII faster than a 1DsIII if offered both. Well maybe if it was a gift, I'd grab the 1DsIII!

With the 1DsIII available shortly, who is contemplating getting the new flagship camera and why?

Asher

Asher, I thought you were going to write a review for us? (NT)

C'mon....You're the head honcho here....why you asking us? I wonder if it will be good enough to make me swap out my leica R8/DMR or Rollei MF system? I kind of doubt it from what I've seen of the 1DIII but who knows?

Maybe the 6D

I got to use the Mk3 at the class I took in San Diego and Nik showed me his 40D. I have to say they both are feature laden next to my 5D. I will be buying a new body probably in February or March; I like the live preview, the silent shutter and the higher ISO of the new Mk3; The DS might be something to consider - for a wedding reception with the dance action would be a plus.

I bought the 5d for it's full frame and it's small size; It does serve me well - far better than the 20D does. I guess I will wait to see what Canon brings out in the new replacement for the 5D before I decide.

Eric Hiss said:

C'mon....You're the head honcho here....why you asking us? I wonder if it will be good enough to make me swap out my leica R8/DMR or Rollei MF system? I kind of doubt it from what I've seen of the 1DIII but who knows?

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Let me translate what I was saying in simple terms: for most of my work the 5D gives superb files (I've learned to start with linear curves from RAW) and the color and look of the pictures are outstanding, the best I have seen so far.

OTOH, 1D bodies are heavy to carry aqround for more than an hour or two. A day with a 1DII is a back ache for me. The 5D by cotnrast, with a handstap is wonderful and almost ransparent. It frustrates me to have to jump up the the extra weight in order to focus better.

Now to your Lecia M8. The 28mm Summicron 2.0 has no match from Canon. With that and the superb rangefinder focus system, the 5D is second place for that lens. The Lecia files, while 8 BIT are very good files with a lot of resilience. The lens is the controlling factor and if not for the 50 1.2L canon wonder lens, I would have dumped the 5D already. The only other point in its favor v. the Leica is the definately superior high ISO capability. Leica has no chance above ISO 400 compared to the 5D for low light work!

So my marriage to the 5D is to get a platform for the 50 1.2L and also to have high ISO capability.

I might go for the 1DsIII but it will be with great reluctance to lug the brick around!

Asher

RE being "the head huncho", for me that's "the facilitator", not the guru who pretends to know everything in order to sell a lot of commercial stuff! Yes we'll have reviews!

5d II ??

Asher, you having trouble getting your message across ??.... ;-)

Is there a 5d series II on the horizon ?

I've been comparing apples with oranges, and the Nikon D300 looks like a superp piece of equipment. It amazes me how they can fit 12M pixels onto a 1.5 crop sensor. Whether it is the competitor for the 40D I'm not quite sure, and it's a tad more expensive, but it will certainly give it a run for its money.... I've never owned a Nikon so I don't know much about them. Has anyone at OPF purchased a D300 yet ?

I apologise for changing your focus....

Cheers for now,
Barry.

i love my 5d and have no plans to get rid of it, but i like the focus and weather-sealing of a 1-series. so the 1ds3 originally was my next body...but the focus issues of the 1d3 make me hesitant. i sure don't want to be among the first to get the camera! i've contemplated a used 1ds2 but my plan now is to wait til spring. i really want my next body to have better focus reliability than the 5d!!

I had 2 5D's up until a week ago when I sold one off. I still love the camera. But the fact is, I'm using my M8 more and more and the DSLR less and less. In my case, my primary uses are for landscape, travel and street. I sometimes do architecture and product. I don't do sports, I don't do wildlife or macro unless it fits into the landscape category.

Since travel and street are mostly done hand-holding the camera, the need for more than 10-12 MP is superfluous; you'll never capture the extra detail double the pixels can capture if you're hand-holding. (I've proven this to myself with the 1Ds2 and 5D --- I could only see a detail difference when the cameras were compared tripod mounted, even at relatively high shutter speeds like 1/250th.) And the diminutive size and weight of the M system is a huge advantage --- as long as you don't need long lenses. FTR I can fit two M8 bodies and 6 lenses in a Domke J803 bag and still have room left over for a water bottle and my laptop! By way of comparison, I needed a Domke J2 to carry two 5D's and 4 lenses plus water bottle --- and if I needed to get my laptop in there, or used a 1-series plus a 5D, I had to swap to my even larger J1. FWIW, I sold my 1Ds2 because I hated the weight and size more than I appreciated its slightly better image detail over the 5D.

Product and architecture is why I keep the 5D. I have and use all of the tilt-shift lenses, and keep a few AF primes for when I might need AF. And I even have a long lens or two for it if I should need to shoot wildlife or a sporting event.

Which brings us to tripod-mounted landscape. Here I have no doubts the 1Ds3 will be a superb camera, assuming one has the best lenses to put on it. (I think I do have enough of those.) But I also own a 4x5 camera --- and drum-scanned 4x5 competes quite well, maybe even is superior in a few ways, to 33+MP digital backs, which is a realm I doubt the 1Ds3 will be able to challenge.

HOWEVERBUT! I can print my M8 files to 20x30 inches and they look superb (about the same as my 1Ds2 files looked). A 20x30 landscape is still a pretty large print in my book, though I suspect the 1Ds3 will be comparably good to about 24x36. So I ask myself how often will I want the extra image size? Bottom line is probably not often, but if I do I still have the 4x5 --- and I enjoy using it

In the end, I think the 1Ds3 will be a superb studio camera for fashion or other faster-action needs where portability balanced with top file quality will rule the day. It will also be a great landscape camera for someone who already owns good Canon glass and wants the ultimate image quality that system can deliver --- and/or doesn't want to invest in a larger MF DB system OR use LF and film.

In my case, I'm holding off...

My .02,

yes t/s

Hi Jack,
I don't have the M8 but instead the DMR and a Rollei 6008AF/P20. I'll choose either of these over my 5D unless I am shooting a pack of kids moving too fast for my eyes, need the eTTL flash or like you wrote need tilt/shift. In fact I have sold all my canon lenses except the two TSE lenses I have plus the 24-70L zoom. Opps forgot the 17-40 zoom but I only use that for underwater work.

Funny how the 5D has become a specialty camera for me - fast moving stuff, underwater, eTTL wireless flash and high iso only.

I've upgraded my canon nearly every year since when the D30 came out. D30, D60, 1D, 20D, 1Ds, and 5D. It's the best one so far but I don't see upgrading it. I don't really need more pixels, I need better color longer dynamic range, even higher ISO. I see that the 1DsIII does not have a huge ISO advantage, nor does it offer MFDB quality dynamic range. So I doubt very much that I'll sell my 5D and spring for the 1DsIII. More likely I'll wait to see the R10 before upgrading if at all.

Eric Hiss said:

More likely I'll wait to see the R10 before upgrading if at all.

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Most most likely!

Asher

I purposely bought the 5D for its size/weight and had no intention of getting battery grip for the same reason.

I now use it extensively with the Sigma 12-24 and this compliments my recent interest in HDR, which the 5D does admirably. I'd probably would swap it for a 5DMkII, when it arrives!. Although, my current thoughts are to trade the Sigma 12-24 and Canon 24-70 and get an EF 16-35 MkII or wider prime.

I've become fascinated with HDR coupled with QTVR and have ordered a Nodal Ninja, which I hope to exploit and maybe earn some money off, hence the consideration for better quality wide glass.

Asher, looking at some of your recent images, could we prise your 5D from the 50f1.2?, you seem very happy with this combination. Would a 1DsMkIII give you the flexibility?

As a side note, I see Ricoh have launched a new 10mp Digital GRII with that highly commended 28mm lens. If they sort the noise problem associated with the MkI, then this could be an affordable travel/landscape camera.

John_Nevill said:

I purposely bought the 5D for its size/weight and had no intention of getting battery grip for the same reason.

I now use it extensively with the Sigma 12-24 and this compliments my recent interest in HDR, which the 5D does admirably. I'd probably would swap it for a 5DMkII, when it arrives!. Although, my current thoughts are to trade the Sigma 12-24 and Canon 24-70 and get an EF 16-35 MkII or wider prime.

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Hi John,

I have the 24-105 which is great for travel but I realize I need wider apertures. Now I want to to carry less, give up shots to get photographs I really want. My ideas have moved to Zeiss glass for WA, the 50 1.2 and the 70-200 2.8 IS. I might swing for the new 14mm 2.8 Canon lens if it gets good reviews from real photographers.

John_Nevill said:

I've become fascinated with HDR coupled with QTVR and have ordered a Nodal Ninja, which I hope to exploit and maybe earn some money off, hence the consideration for better quality wide glass.

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I use a set up with a Zork and a 45mm Pentax 6x7 version II (lens is fixed) and even swing it round the nodal point. Otherwise, I might use a ledge or a tree as a steadying point and hand hold the 5D to do similar with any other lens and it works reasonably well, but sucks up time in APP.

John_Nevill said:

Asher, looking at some of your recent images, could we prise your 5D from the 50f1.2?, you seem very happy with this combination. Would a 1DsMkIII give you the flexibility?

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Theres' no doubt that for a fast paced model or fashion shoot, the 1DsIII would be perfect, but so would a 1DIII. (The models are hot but the camera is cool!, so the AF should work well).

John_Nevill said:

As a side note, I see Ricoh have launched a new 10mp Digital GRII with that highly commended 28mm lens. If they sort the noise problem associated with the MkI, then this could be an affordable travel/landscape camera.

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Also the promised Sigma digicam.

Asher

Eric Hiss said:

Funny how the 5D has become a specialty camera for me - fast moving stuff, underwater, eTTL wireless flash and high iso only.

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I hear you...

I don't really need more pixels, I need better color longer dynamic range, even higher ISO.

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Agreed. Better and bigger color, and better overall IQ is the main thing now. I don't really even need that much more DR or higher ISO, though either/both would be welcome. I can tell you that if Leica had two really good TS lenses for the R I'd own a DMR right now and probably be first in line for an R10 myself. Be really interesting to see how the R10 unfolds --- I heard a squeak of rumor: 24 (yes, 24!) NEW lenses for Leica to be announced! Sounds like a total revamp of the R line with autofocus, and just maybe, a few TS's!

Cheers,

yes, T/S lenses are high on my leica wish list. That would be incredible if the new Leica had 24mp, but I've heard many different rumors but the one that seemed most reasonable was the 18mp and I think Kodak has a 18mp sensor on their product list but hey if they come out with 24 then great! Certainly some of my leica lenses are up to it.

Eric Hiss said:

yes, T/S lenses are high on my leica wish list. That would be incredible if the new Leica had 24mp, but I've heard many different rumors but the one that seemed most reasonable was the 18mp and I think Kodak has a 18mp sensor on their product list but hey if they come out with 24 then great! Certainly some of my leica lenses are up to it.

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Eric --- if you are referencing my 24 comment, I was referring to the number OF NEW LENSES soon to be announced by Leica, not the number of MP the R10 will have! As for R10 pixel count, I have heard 18 as well.

Wow! must be off today, either that or it was just wishful thinking. Yes I see 24 new lenses - wonder what that will do to the used market?

Eric Hiss said:

Wow! must be off today, either that or it was just wishful thinking. Yes I see 24 new lenses - wonder what that will do to the used market?

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Well if the new lenses are AF for the R10, I suspect it will kill the existing R market pretty quickly since only Canon owners will want them

They might use a moving film plane for focus as Contax did. OTOH, why would then then make new lenses unless perhpas they are going to optimize them for digital. I wonder whether it will allow film too?

Asher

Asher, I ordered my 1DSMKIII the day Canon announced the 1DMKIII.

Asher Kelman said:

They might use a moving film plane for focus as Contax did. OTOH, why would then then make new lenses unless perhpas they are going to optimize them for digital. I wonder whether it will allow film too?

Asher

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It's already been stated the R10 will be all digital. However, half of those 24 lenses could be revised M lenses, the speculation is with the necessary added IR cut built in...

Jack_Flesher said:

Well if the new lenses are AF for the R10, I suspect it will kill the existing R market pretty quickly since only Canon owners will want them

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Yeah that was what I was thinking, but what if they still work with the R10 which I hope to be the case? Then anyone buying a R10 will need some glass too? There are all those guys that sold off their R lenses to buy M8's and M lenses (which brought down R glass prices nicely for guys like me using the DMR). And what about all those people that buy the 1DsIII and realize that the canon lenses are not up to the job? Hard to know what to do. I can say that if there is a R10, I won't be compelled to buy new lenses to just get AF.


Oh yeah totally forgot...anyone need a mint Leica R 21-35mm zoom with ROM? How about a 50 'Lux or 'cron (both latest versions), or a 35-70mm f/4 ROM - absolutely kills the canon plus has a nice macro range. Probably should wait until the 1DsIII ships....

I have to say unless you need a camera like the 1dsmk3 for it speed of autofocus, weathersealing, speed, etc etc I do not really see its benefits over a 5d. The 5d really does give all the quality you need for the smaller print sizes of magazine work or similar and in a good size body so for interiors etc it works really well, especailly with all the associated shift / tilt options available.
What many seem to want more megapixels for is large print sized landscape work and here, I really do feel that however many mp's the dslr's have when you are printing large and shooting images with far off detail, then mf or lf film drum scanned will still give you a better image purely in terms of image quality.
Of course film is a pain to some extent with processing and scanning time and costs involved but if your ultimate aim is the best image quality you can get for a large sized print of a landscape style image then you can not put ease of use over image quality.

I should of course qualify all of this by saying i have only compared my images from a 5d (and 1dsmk2) to those from film so perhaps the 22mp canon will prove me wrong..but I do not expect it to do so. (a 18mp or similar R10 with the quality of the leica glass available would I imagine come closer to that scenario).

Just my thoughts.

Marc

www.marcwilson.co.uk

Marc,

I feel the same. I'd pay a chunkl of $ if I could upgrade the 5D focus. Otherwise I'm very happy with the camera. For really large work I'm trying out large format film again since both my budget and needs are limited!

Asher

Film Vs Digital

Unfortunately the cost of such drum scanners is prohibitive indeed, and one would certainly need to justify the cost such a scanner in order to purchase one.
I personally have never been able to agree that the sharpness and overall IQ of 35mm is better than that taken with a digital slr. Depending on the nature of the film, colour hues and saturation may be better, but digital imagery has far improved in recent times. However that being said, images from f.f. or c.s. dslr's, cannot compare with larger than 35mm formats. At a recent camera and imaging expo in Melbourne, the cost of a 645 digital back was around the $40k area, and unless you are an absolute professional and sell your images for a lot of money, they are out of reach for the amateur and some professionals.

As a photographer, I do agree the IQ is everything, and should never be compromised if one can help it. But then you must have the money and the reason in order to fund such perfection with premium cameras and lenses. I do think that versatility and convenience count a lot these days for the sheer volumes of digital images we take on every occasion.

Hoorah !! for digital photography. The world will never be the same again, and in time it will change the course of our history and it will be our saviour.

Digital Vs Film has probably been debated to death by now and will probably continue to be, but that is my 2c worth.

I would upgrade my 5D for 14bit files and decent AF (the 40D is noticeably better in low light). I doubt I would bother with more megapixels, you need to put a 85L shot closed down a bit on your 5D to realise just how much of the cameras IQ your L zooms are just not maximising! I'm a huge fan of the 24-70L (more contrasty than any 70-200L I've used which is all of them) but that 85L at f4 made it look like the zoom had all the sharpness of shooting with a coke bottle!

I also have a 4X5 like Jack with an adaptor coming to use my 5D for stitching on the back of it to make an 80 megapixel file. From my calculations none of the lenses available for regular 4X5 use can offer more resolution than this anyway but it's certainly plenty for when I need big prints. The 5D is an almost (AF in low light again) perfect wedding camera, I use two of them for that, it's also good for documentary/street work with 12 megapixels of resolution when the shutter speed is high and incredible high iso to get the shutter speed high enough to maximise that resolution!

To make 35mm cameras with huge amount of megapixels does rather put them into niche markets in that most of the time you don't need that many megapixels or even particularly want the hassle of them. I honestly don't see that I need more than 13 megapixels for wedding work, I do need to use my primes more for sharper fast apertures but that isn't the cameras fault. I can crop the files down silly amounts and still get useable 8X10's. Yes I can see that studio and landscape photographers would use MFDB quality DSLR's for all it's worth, but then why do they need 5fps or the big battery pack?

The 1Ds series has shown that the seperation of formats between medium format and 35mm can be combined into one body. I say that this combination has and will continue to be detrimental to the usage of the formats everywhere outside the 'bridge' zone as the 6X7 and 6X9 formats die and small 35mm cameras such as the excellent Contax p&s or G series cease to exist. All because of DSLR's which in the past would never have been considered for the job due to unsuitiblity of size or a simple realisation that you cannot squeeze the tonality of a huge peice of film onto a small sensor.

Asher I don't get it — isn't the obvious answer to your question the 5D Mark II? And isn't it safe to assume that camera is no more than six months from release? How much of a hurry are you in?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Asher. I hear what you're saying. I love my 5D but was really tempted for the 1DsMIII after playing with it at PPE. The viewfinder is amazing and we're talking a lot more pixels. But then when I slept on it, figured I'd hold off and see what comes next for the 5D. First, while the MIII isn't super heavy (thanks to the new battery), its still much bigger and heaver than our 5D. The cost is also not easy to live with. I did hear that its unlikely we'd see a newer 5D model with this kind of viewfinder just due to size. So, if the next gen of 5D was 16mp, same size but with the vibration system to clean the sensor, better high ISO, and at about the same price point, I'd be all over that. I have absolutely NO inside skinny from Canon about what's coming. But maybe around PMA next year we'd hear something? Don't know, PMA isn't the show it used to be. In the past, you could pretty much count on major announcements from companies but there was nothing last year so maybe its wishful thinking.

At this point, I'm not going to try to get in the front line for a $8K body like I wanted to when holding this new beauty. A bit more resolution and a few tweaks and the current 5D could be my prefect camera for at least the next number of years. We'll see.

Andrew Rodney said:

Asher. I hear what you're saying. I love my 5D but was really tempted for the 1DsMIII after playing with it at PPE. The viewfinder is amazing and we're talking a lot more pixels. But then when I slept on it, figured I'd hold off and see what comes next for the 5D. First, while the MIII isn't super heavy (thanks to the new battery), its still much bigger and heaver than our 5D. The cost is also not easy to live with. I did hear that its unlikely we'd see a newer 5D model with this kind of viewfinder just due to size. So, if the next gen of 5D was 16mp, same size but with the vibration system to clean the sensor, better high ISO, and at about the same price point, I'd be all over that. I have absolutely NO inside skinny from Canon about what's coming. But maybe around PMA next year we'd hear something? Don't know, PMA isn't the show it used to be. In the past, you could pretty much count on major announcements from companies but there was nothing last year so maybe its wishful thinking.

At this point, I'm not going to try to get in the front line for a $8K body like I wanted to when holding this new beauty. A bit more resolution and a few tweaks and the current 5D could be my prefect camera for at least the next number of years. We'll see.

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Andrew,

It does take discipline to go against the tide. The problem with being avid web-followers is that we buy in to the excitement of having a 35mm format camera that invades MF territory with our existing lenses! But that's what the marketing guys want us to feel.

However, what do we need? We really don't need more than 3MP for most of photography given what the Canon Eos D30 DSLR did in the hands of Neil Turner long ago in 2000!

Asher Kelman said:

I'd venture to stick my neck out and ask how much improvement has been made since Neil Turner made these pictures with the 30D? written in 2000 by Neil Turner a wonderful photographer and teacher in England at dg28.com who wrote a stellar second opinion on the Canon 30D which suddenly changed my view of photography for ever.

These pictures are copyrighted property of Neil Turner and are shown under fair use for editoral comment only.

Such pictures to me meant a new age had arrived! Here was process that would eclipse film for most photojournalistic, sports and wedding photography. These three pictures heralded for me, at least, the dawn of a real new age!

Incidentally I was always concerned about this lovely ballet teacher's skin as there are two to three likely basal cell cancers hardly disguised by make up! That means that this lady was healthy and didn't need doctors much! Also the slip of the lipstick shows something about her eyesight perhaps or the steadiness of her hands. She's a fine lady who has had a long, long career, special teacher with dignity, skill and a beautiful authority.

Of course, the camera needed a unique vision of a skilled artistic photographer to light, position compose and process to make this pciture, but the D30 was his chosen tool. These 3 pictures are iconic and stunning testimony to the quality of both the work of Nei Turner and the expressive capabilities of the new D30 camera.

I do not think we are really much further ahead with our final images for most ordinary work. This, for just me at least, was the leap to the professional digital age!

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Add better low-light focus and modern noise-reduction algorithms and we're happy. Now the 5D not only has 12 instead of 3MP and low noise at high ISO, but have been crippled by restricting focus capability.

So my solution is to just improve my efforts, focus and refocus more for street, event and portrait photography.

For action I've my 1DII and for very detail rich scenes (wedding groups, boards of directors), I will use film (4x5 or 6x12) and scan. In addition I can always rent a MF Digital back!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Marc,

"For really large work I'm trying out large format film again since both my budget and needs are limited!

Asher

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To be honest Asher I do not see large format necassarily as a cheaper option to the best dslr such as the upcoming canon or nikon's..especially if you look at it over say a three to five year period of film, processing and drum scanning costs, but its simply that I find the image quality better and for my uses that is worth all the time and aggravation (and even money, which if more is at least spread out over time) of film over digital...its all about the print!

But for most of my commercial work, interiors, etc..the 5d or similar rocks and I can not see a single reason why I would choose to use film over digital there unless the shot needs the movements I can only get with a view camera and/or the final image size or client, requires large format film quality.

In terms of ease of use, etc of digital though, when I've hiked for miles and my hands are close to freezing what I'd give for the security of a digital shot to know its in the bag...if only I knew my 100x100 cm print from digital was going to be as good as that from 54 film!
Marc

marc wilson said:

To be honest Asher I do not see large format necassarily as a cheaper option to the best dslr such as the upcoming canon or nikon's..especially if you look at it over say a three to five year period of film, processing and drum scanning costs, but its simply that I find the image quality better and for my uses that is worth all the time and aggravation (and even money, which if more is at least spread out over time) of film over digital...its all about the print!

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An Epson 750 scan from a 4x5 will still be pretty marvelous. A film camera such as a used Crown Graphic is only $50 to 450 on EBay. The lenses are damn good! At only 2400 ppi, the scan would allow a print of 32"x40" native resolution of 300 pixels per inch prints!

For the low volume use, there's no match in what you get!

marc wilson said:

In terms of ease of use, etc of digital though, when I've hiked for miles and my hands are close to freezing what I'd give for the security of a digital shot to know its in the bag...if only I knew my 100x100 cm print from digital was going to be as good as that from 54 film!
Marc

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Just for the old-fashioned and USA readers, 54 film is 4X5 and 100x100cm is of course ~25"x25".

Asher

From my albeit brief experience with an Epson 4990, unless you are using wet mounting with an adjustable height film holder for ultimate flatness and clarity, you aren't going to get that much more resolution from your 4X5 film than a 5D. I did the comparison and my Imacon scanned 645 negs beat the Epson with 4X5. I've since sold it the scanner not the 4X5 system!