HY6 preview @ LL

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sinar-hy6.shtml

I am reading it ...

Leonardo,

We're still waiting to get ours! We were supposed to get it to use one in Paris May of this year, then to receive Michael Reichman's unit after his review. The camera wasn't ready until recently! So everyone had to wait! European magazines need it! So MR got it very late and now the top line European guys have it to use.

The OPF review will follow as soon as another arrives!

So I was so happy to read the review last night. I must say I was surpised to say the least by the color of the model in the test. For a top level camera, somehow an explanation is needed. Since this is the most important aspect of a camera and review I am puzzled.

Michael essentially said the camera should be reviewed through rose colored glasses since it's the important new platform. He said, of course that buyers must try it for htemselves to see if it works for their own needs.

I'd like to here more!

Asher

Amazing how much is still NOT known about this camera

I've been waiting with baited breath for some reviews on the Hy6 but am surprised to read how much is still not known. Why is this taking so long to get sorted? I read the review on LL and the accompanying thread but still am left wondering for sure about if I bought it would my files have EXIF data in them or only if I use certain software.

Will the Hy6 be better than my 6008 AF? Right now I am not sure.

I think that the preview was like a Larry King interview, but some issues came out from the camera and the back, and one important problem was not mentioned at all, -- the lack of a 28mm, even a 35mm... -- but some serious issues came to surface, and at "possibly close to $40,000 with lenses and accessories." of investment cost, you expect a Ferrari to behave like ... a Ferrari.

Forget about not having a 28 or a 35, just compare the way a P 25 is built (I mention this because is the one I am most familiar with) and this Sinar back is. Phase makes a complete metal enclosure that works dissipating heat, has no fan, so no air is blowing inside and out of the back casing --like the Leafs--, the LCD is small to generate minimum heat and consume juice, and the battery fits with the back exposed in the other direction of the back, also to expel any exes heat.

In other words, the design of the Sinar camera is function following form. It is not improving the standard...

Then there is the problem of the viewfinder. My camera (645 Mamiya) has a very solid compact prism finder that permits me to fit a flash on top --if needed--. The other day I put it on my 8x10 Magestic tripod hit a ceiling beam with the top of the camera at a location shoot, there was no problem with the camera...

Of course I have taken an expensive choice as photographer so I my tendency is to think that the system I am using is "the best" and other old or up coming are not "going to work", so I am self confessed supporter of the team Phase/Mamiya, but this is nothing personal against other systems or the people that sell, design or use them. I think that it is healthy that people that are doing research on a new system to invest tens of thousands of dollars encounter opinionated people like pointing out the weak points ... I think...

all true

Hi Leonardo,
Everything you said is true. The thing about the ferrari is that when it has quirks you call it personality, and most owners do not drive theirs every day. With a camera, a better analog would be a truck since its got to do the work for you. Okay maybe a mercedes truck but still.... I am really surprised that after all the hype this thing is still not finished, has a lot of apparently large design flaws. Plus they already had the 6008 AF so its not exactly like they started at square one. Really a surprise. I think they put all their money into PR instead of engineering.

Eric

I really would like to see a review by someone who shoots for a living and gets paid for delivering photographs. In a studio, one has the back and simply rotates it! Knowing the software one gets a few extra stops of dynamic range, the software is not C1 or Lightroom and needs a dedicated knowledge to deliver the Sinar Value.

What is missing/not yet right, an adjustment to a battery compartment!! I can't see why this is any different from a 1DIII or M8 teething problem and probably of no consequence.

Asher

I think that a first generation products are that, evolving products.--look at the ZD back-- Honda started doing motorcycles, racing them and now, after countless hours of interbreeding and learning from this constant competitive racing you can buy a mature product that has evolved and is ready to perform in your hands. The failing battery failed and was re-designed three of four seasons ago, heat to noise has been finetuned over and over, etc. Early adopters will "support" the Hy6 system with generous R&D checks of 20-30k. The problem for this system is that they are going go to "race" agains mature systems. We don't know how the announced Phase/Mamiya system will be, but making a decision to go the Hy6 way and not wait to see what that new open system will be may be a mistake.

The Hy6 can compete in price, but there they will encounter the second generation ZD that will probably come bundle with C1-4 at Canon price. Faster flash sync will be addressed by leaf lenses and the advantage of European
optics will also be counter by inviting other makers to contribute with lenses to the system.

The Hy6 will need to acquire certain speed after take off not to stall and loose lift, and if they where invading the market when they announced they where with a finished product the may have had a chance, but the closer they get to Q-1-08 the closer they will get to the gravity force of the new Phase/Mamiya system -- and the Canon Mark 3--

Eric Hiss said:

I've been waiting with baited breath for some reviews on the Hy6 but am surprised to read how much is still not known. Why is this taking so long to get sorted? I read the review on LL and the accompanying thread but still am left wondering for sure about if I bought it would my files have EXIF data in them or only if I use certain software.

Click to expand...

As far as I've read, the data is communicated, but it takes a firmware upgrade and specific software ("Exposure") is needed.

The best source of info sofar seems to be Thierry Hagenauer (from Sinar), and he posts frequently on LL when issues are raised. Thierry also posts here on OPF, but not as frequently as on LL, hence the link to his posting history on LL.

Bart

Really,

None of this makes much sense until we get reports from guys who earn a living from delivering photographs paying clients. Michael Reichman has, to his credit, made a large effort for some time in looking at MF digital photography. His needs, often practical for his style of photography, may have little to no relevance to the produce, wedding or fashion photographer for example.

Also to be put in perspective, the M8 which he liked, had major defects which he and other major reviewers either did not mention of did not find. Still in spite of the very serious nature of the problems (purple color from synthetic blacks, lines and green blobs repeated some distance from bright lights. For my testing the camera worked perfectly because I did street photograph and landscapes and the issues did not impact. Still ALL these issues were dealt with to the satisfaction of first users.

So I cannot see any point of worrying about apparent shortcomings. When I see the color of the models, I feel that the MR review should be considered as an important, careful but really limited glimpse at the new Hy6. Michael has emphasized that cameras should not be bought on his liking or not!

Asher

Asher, what we need is the new HY6 AND a working Mk3 to make a shoot out, ask Will if he got his already.

In another development, I had a chance to chat with someone that works for Phase and he explained to me that the big difference between Phase and other cameras is that the image "is not made of pixels" in the traditional sense.

He explained it this way: the Phase backs separate color from density and mix it up at the end of the imaging process -I think that at the time of processing- and that this was a fundamental difference that translated in much less post production work at a crucial part of an important application: RGB to CMYK file conversion. He said that this was the reason why Phase One backs got the lion share of the market for digital backs. That literally, printing houses went out and bought hundreds of backs -at this point I dont understand why printing houses and not photographers, but i am quoting him.

So, a Phase One back will give you -according to my source - a more consistent file that converts better to the printing process. "Photographers that provide good CMYK converted images get paid big time " hi explained.

So, this is something to learn: CMYKology...

I can explain the separation-of-color-from-density thing latter, since that is also mentioned in the manual that I am reading...

leonardobarreto.com said:

That literally, printing houses went out and bought hundreds of backs -at this point I dont understand why printing houses and not photographers, but i am quoting him...

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High-end digital repro work, particularly with oversized originals is done with cameras and digital backs, I gather, as often as or more than scanners. A camera with a digital back is faster than a scanner and can deal with any size original. Betterlight scanning backs are also attractive to this market, particularly for museum reproductions, where they might need the additional resolution that a scanning back can offer over a single-shot back.

Bob Salomon from HP Marketing has mentioned occasionally on the LF forum that libraries, museums and other businesses and institutions that do copy work are a significant market for Linhof products.

leonardobarreto.com said:

I can explain the separation-of-color-from-density thing latter, since that is also mentioned in the manual that I am reading...

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Looking forward to that. I presume, since the camera back captures in RGB (Bayer CFA), that it converts to a color space like L*a*b or XYZ for processing, and then either converts to an RGB or CMYK output space. Many image calculations are more accurate /easier to perform in a linear gamma space (like XYZ).

Bart

Dear Eric,

there are of course EXIF data being available from the camera in the software, obviously. However, the current Captureshop SW is not able to "read" this. This is implemented in the new coming Sinar Exposure SW.

Best regards,
Thierry

Dear Leonardo,

May I know in which way this camera does not perform like it should (a Ferrari should behave like a Ferrari)?: it actually DOES and I would suggest to test it before making any claim like this. All photographers having used it do report the same, that it is a wonderful camera with major advantages as compared to existing cameras. I shall not go into details, but once you will have tried it by your own you shall understand, I a sure.

As for heat: the eMotion backs are state-of-the-art backs, with the latest technology. The absence of fan and/or the battery inside does not mean at all that there is more heat/noise produced: the back has a special power management, combined with the "pulse-flush" technology (The Dalsa sensor's "pulse-flush" design allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD. Kodak needs to
be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode) avoiding such, and any user could confirm that noise is not an issue.

Best regards,
Thierry

leonardobarreto.com said:

you expect a Ferrari to behave like ... a Ferrari.

Forget about not having a 28 or a 35, just compare the way a P 25 is built (I mention this because is the one I am most familiar with) and this Sinar back is. Phase makes a complete metal enclosure that works dissipating heat, has no fan, so no air is blowing inside and out of the back casing --like the Leafs--, the LCD is small to generate minimum heat and consume juice, and the battery fits with the back exposed in the other direction of the back, also to expel any exes heat.

In other words, the design of the Sinar camera is function following form. It is not improving the standard...

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Not really true: the camera IS finished and DOES ship since 1 month.

As for the "apparently" design flaws: what does allow you to say this? Did you try and hold it for a shooting session?

Best regards,
Thierry

Eric Hiss said:

Hi Leonardo,
I am really surprised that after all the hype this thing is still not finished, has a lot of apparently large design flaws. Plus they already had the 6008 AF so its not exactly like they started at square one. Really a surprise. I think they put all their money into PR instead of engineering.
Eric

Click to expand...

Thanks Bart, for mentioning my name.

I shall try to be a bit more "active" here, but that is not all of my duties and am pretty busy with my regular work.

Best regards,
Thierry

Dear Leonardo,

that is not exactly what you could hear fro printing houses, when it comes to quality files perfect for printing processes. In the contrary, it is quite the opposite, and I can assure you that "Sinar" files are considered by almost all serious printing houses as the best and cleanest files, needing the less PP.

PO might lead when it comes to market share, but certainly not due to this.

Best regards,
Thierry

leonardobarreto.com said:

He said that this was the reason why Phase One backs got the lion share of the market for digital backs. That literally, printing houses went out and bought hundreds of backs -at this point I dont understand why printing houses and not photographers, but i am quoting him.

So, a Phase One back will give you -according to my source - a more consistent file that converts better to the printing process. "Photographers that provide good CMYK converted images get paid big time " hi explained.

Click to expand...

Most of the state and private museums, as well as libraries, reproduction institutions and art galleries do in fact use the multishot technology, which is today by far superior to a scanning, especially with the 16-shot mode.

Best regards,
Thierry

David A. Goldfarb said:

High-end digital repro work, particularly with oversized originals is done with cameras and digital backs, I gather, as often as or more than scanners. A camera with a digital back is faster than a scanner and can deal with any size original. Betterlight scanning backs are also attractive to this market, particularly for museum reproductions, where they might need the additional resolution that a scanning back can offer over a single-shot back.

Bob Salomon from HP Marketing has mentioned occasionally on the LF forum that libraries, museums and other businesses and institutions that do copy work are a significant market for Linhof products.

Click to expand...

According to to Walter Borchenko's , Advanced Application Manual, the way the human eye captures light is with rods for color and cones for density, and that this two subsystems generate parallel data outputs that are combined at the end by our mind to visualize the external world.

He continues to explain that Phase uses a similar approach generating "2 sets of information" created from the original raw data. The streams of data are kept separated -- this it the vital element -- "The black data is saved as lightness data, and the color data is saved in a similar technology to chroma and hue information as found on the LAB color model."

Each data set can be adjusted independently.

The Manual also claims that:" In addition, the Phase One model of pixel building creates superior sharpness, color and range in highlights and shadows. this result is possible through superior quantities of color and density information even in highlights and shadows. Extreme lighting conditions also succeed with surprising hight quality"

... This Application Manual is not published by Phase one, but I know that Walter Borchenko makes content for Phase One, specifically, interviewing photographers that use the system to demonstrate the advantages compared to, say, Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, so, should we consider this book as an Phase One infommercial ?

On the other side, it is interesting to hear the voice of the designer of one of the main high end systems, particularly in times when the field is changing with the appearance of the HY6, the consolidation of Hasselblad as a digital system and an so much money to be wasted on an erroneous move on the part of a photographer adopting one brand and passing on the other.

So, what do you think?

This is the way the human eye works. Very, very interesting

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html

i will jump in and tell you that i think this is pure BS. phase is not better than leaf not than sinar not than hasselblad. its the one or the other photographer which knows to use them better than another one..... about the "CMYK" advanatge of the phase files: what a nonsense. its very dificult to find these days a printing house which can provide the correct specs for the cmyk profiling they need,- so in practice you are better advised to give them rgb files with an moderate wide color space as adobe rgb or eci rgb AND good ink jet proofs, which they have to match before printing. i insist that i have the last word here for higher end books, usually this is granted.

the differences one creates this days in photoshop is so big, that it is not any problem to make out of a correct exposed canon g9 file a better printable file than out of a p45 or other mf file in less skilled hands,- so its ridiculous to claim that the back "itself" may produce perfect printable files for this or another way of structuring the pixel rendering. indeed kodak sensors ( in hasselblad and phase backs ) have a different way and form of their individual pixels, which leads to the effect that since generations these kodak sensors are very sensitive for color shifts, which minor the possible color gammut after inverting the files ( in LCC correction ), to avoid to make these color shifts visible.
but thats theory also, cause in skilled hands phase backs are as excellent as the others ( and the hi iso performance of some phase backs is the best ) , but in unskilled hands they are same rabbish than every other photo camera too.

leonardobarreto.com said:

The streams of data are kept separated -- this it the vital element -- "The black data is saved as lightness data, and the color data is saved in a similar technology to chroma and hue information as found on the LAB color model."

Click to expand...

So nothing revolutionary then. Provided one ensures lossless RGB to their color space conversion, and a color managed conversion to output spaces, there is not all that much special. Photoshop also does that, but in their implementation there are losses in accuracy caused by limited precision integer number representation of the internal Lab space used.

The Manual also claims that:" In addition, the Phase One model of pixel building creates superior sharpness, color and range in highlights and shadows. this result is possible through superior quantities of color and density information even in highlights and shadows. Extreme lighting conditions also succeed with surprising hight quality"

Click to expand...

Which translates to; high quality Raw conversion. Since Bayer CFA Raw conversion is a process of striking compromises between detail and artifacts, no process can be superior on all aspects. The Raw conversion can only work with the data captured, and that is still limited to the physical constraints from the sensor and the on board electronics. All the rest is number crunching.

... so, should we consider this book as an Phase One infommercial ?

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Based only on the quotes here, I'd say yes, but then I didn't expect him to disclose something that has to remain a trade secret.

Bart

Rainer, I think that there is a high component of BS in what is said about this systems. I met an expert in Leaf cameras that insited that the Leaf handles colors and can be profiled in a superior way, and the statements that I quoted from Mr. Borchenkos's Applied Crasftsmanship Manual.

The independent expert voices are not as comon. I agree that a good camera in the hands of a bad photographer will, as you said, produce rabbish...

leonardobarreto.com said:

Rainer, I think that there is a high component of BS in what is said about this systems. I met an expert in Leaf cameras that insited that the Leaf handles colors and can be profiled in a superior way, and the statements that I quoted from Mr. Borchenkos's Applied Crasftsmanship Manual.

The independent expert voices are not as comon. I agree that a good camera in the hands of a bad photographer will, as you said, produce rabbish...

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i agree about the BS. although the actual generation of mf backs can deliver great image qualities in the hands of skilled photographers, the myth about them is big part of their marketing. i am convinced that the workflow of the software between the manufactors is the biggest point where are the differences,- although i prefer for architecture and landscape the dalsa sensor and i tend to say that the kodak fraction is ( maybe ) the better tool for fashion. but could be that this is BS too.

Sorry Rainer, "i prefer for architecture and landscape the dalsa sensor and i tend to say that the kodak fraction is ( maybe ) the better tool for fashion. but could be that this is BS too." sounds like BS too.

I am studying the C1 Manual to improve my working methods, and I have learned two or three important things so far, also discovered others that I was doing wrong and a few more that will be on my TO DO list of discovery and implementation. The BS bothers me because I am someone that tends to believe what people say --or print in books-- but there is a lot of marketing info-commercials out there and it can't be all true when Thierry is saying that "I can assure you that "Sinar" files are considered by almost all serious printing houses as the best and cleanest files, needing the less PP." and Borchenko claimes the same !

Of course, the two are marketing their systems, so we would need someone that knows the publishing business to sort this one out. Maybe the answer is: the two are good, or you don't give CMYK files to a printer, or some other answer...

Well, Leonardo,

I was not saying this to "impress" or even to try to convince you. That is simply what I heard and still hear, when I meet PP people around here in Asia and Australia. Believe me that I am not that much a "marketing" person, rather on the photographer's side, having been myself shooting for more than 10 years in still-life.

And what those guy mean with this, since I have obviously asked them why they feel so, they answer that the files seem to be the most "neutral", the less twicked, without any sharpening, and that the colors are the most easy to correct in PP.

Now I do not believe such sayings if it comes from one, 2 or even 3 different persons, but tend to listen to it when I hear this over and over again.

But next time I will keep it for me, promised, so that you don't hear any marketing BS anymore.

leonardobarreto.com said:

-- but there is a lot of marketing info-commercials out there and it can't be all true when Thierry is saying that "I can assure you that "Sinar" files are considered by almost all serious printing houses as the best and cleanest files, needing the less PP." and Borchenko claimes the same !

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Thierry, I think that we all appreciate your opinion here, certainly I do, so, I have a suggestion, lets have a multilateral detente of using the term BS.

There are many factors that can cause Thierry and Borchenko to find the same results for the products that they happen to be representing, the only thing that I know is that if Sinar is the best and Phase is also the best there must be a problem with the methodology that was used to determine which one is producing the best files in one or the two cases, since there until there is an "independent" source, we will have live it at that.

On the other side, if I had to send a CMYK converted image to print next Monday -- either with a Sinar or Phase -- it would probably not be as good as the next image since: I have no experience doing it !. My point is that there is probably so much variation in photographers skills that a consistent superiority of files coming from either Phase or Sinar would be improbable.

Leonardo,

no harm, and I do nt feel offended at all. You are also right about the photographers skills concerning consistency. However, I was refering to delivered RGB files, untouched and un-corrected, straight out of the camera capture SW.

Best regards,
Thierry

leonardobarreto.com said:

On the other side, if I had to send a CMYK converted image to print next Monday -- either with a Sinar or Phase -- it would probably not be as good as the next image since: I have no experience doing it !. My point is that there is probably so much variation in photographers skills that a consistent superiority of files coming from either Phase or Sinar would be improbable.

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