Buy a MF camera now?

[Sid Jervis]

I have very little experience in the MF market, so I have a few requests.

I have watched the price of MF cameras (and lenses) fall to a price point that looks quite attractive (in the UK).
I have also seen some Phase one P20 digital backs come to the second hand market.
I would like to buy some MF film equipment this year, with the option of moving to MF digital (If I can get on with MF in general).
My areas of work with MF would be studio portraits and some landscape work.

And now a few questions:

In your opinion, are MF cameras likely to fall further in price?
What is the current cost of MF film processing?
What are the names to avoid, and what ones to seek out for purchase?

Where would be the best place to start to learn about the MF marketplace, as I do not like the idea of purchasing blind?

TIA

[Colin Jago]

Sid,

If you are dependent upon finding a second hand P20 I would wait until you have got your back before buying the camera. It would be vexatious to (say) buy an excellent Mamiya system only to find that you get offered a good deal on a Hasselblad fit P20.

You do see some P20 and P25 backs on the used market but many users trade in against a newer back, so Phase One is doing a good job of sucking most of the hardware back to the factory.

Colin

[Asher Kelman]

Colin,

Don't they ever provide them to dealers as a "reconditioned" unit to get more photgraphers into their market niche?

These are all handbuilt, so I can't imagine then trashing them!

Asher

[Colin Jago]

Asher,

I've seen recon units for sale at Teamwork in the UK, but the discount against new was marginal. I don't know what they routinely do with the bought in units. I'm just talking from my experience as a buyer.

Anybody know?

Colin

[leonardobarreto.com]

I traded my Mamiy RZII 67 for a Mamiya 645 AFD, I believed that 6x7 was too big for digital, and the 645 is a "D" for digital ready.

Two things happened after I did that a) Mamiya came with the AFD II (which is not that bad because they only upgraded a slow AF system and the "D" part is same) and b) Mamiya was sold (the rumor is for just $1m).

The situation now is that they may come back from the grave and give us a 22mp back, the ZD for under $10k.

If not, there are so many new backs coming with more megpaixels that there is only matter of time that some will trickle down on eBay.

For me the perfect back would be a P25 (H25 is only for Hasselblad) and 22mp is a good number of pixels to have.

For example, there is this one 14 hours before deadline at $15k ... with the Hasselbland and 80mm... so, a P25 may very well get to the ten thousand or less... just matter of months, I think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H1-Kit-PHASE-ONE-P25-digital-back_W0QQitemZ190013872005QQihZ009QQcategoryZ30020 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Don Lashier]

For example, there is this one 14 hours before deadline at $15k ... with the Hasselbland and 80mm... so, a P25 may very well get to the ten thousand or less... just matter of months, I think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H1-Kit-PHASE-ONE-P25-digital-back_W0QQitemZ190013872005QQihZ009QQcategoryZ30020 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
iirc you can get a brand new Rollei and P25 for 14K or so, 12K for "demo".

Sorry, thats a P20 in the bundle, but still a good deal. $12,750 including lens http://www.kurlandphoto.com/New-Rolleiflex-6008-AF-Digital-Bundle-pr-205.html

- DL

[Asher Kelman]

Leonardo,

I think you picked a good one!

The photographer, Ian Daniel http://www.iandaniel.com seems impressive.

Asher

[Sid Jervis]

The digital backs that I have seen are "reconditioned" P20's at approximately £5000 UK.
I would like to buy the film camera this year, with an option on the digital maybe next year.

If I go down the Hasselblad route, which models support the Phase digital backs?
Are there other backs that will fit the Hasselblad as well as the P20/P25?

[Sid Jervis]

Sid,

If you are dependent upon finding a second hand P20 I would wait until you have got your back before buying the camera. It would be vexatious to (say) buy an excellent Mamiya system only to find that you get offered a good deal on a Hasselblad fit P20.

That is why my post is here; I may not go down the MF digital route for a while yet, but I do want the option.
I can appreciate the engineering and quality of a high end MF camera, it will help me calm down my working process, I can enjoy it. But I would like to avoid closing the door on digital MF.

[Don Lashier]

Sorry, thats a P20 in the bundle, but still a good deal. $12,750 including lens http://www.kurlandphoto.com/New-Rolleiflex-6008-AF-Digital-Bundle-pr-205.html

or $10,995 bin on ebay, also from kurland
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rollei-6008-AF-Digital-Bundle-w-80-2-8-PQ-S-AF-Xenotar_W0QQitemZ250014132908QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Rollei-6008-AF-Digital-Bundle-w-80-2-8-PQ-S-AF-Xenotar_W0QQitemZ250014132908QQcmdZViewItem)

- DL

[Colin Jago]

The digital backs that I have seen are "reconditioned" P20's at approximately £5000 UK.

Big dealer advertised prices today are GBP 5750 for refurb and GBP 6750 for new (plus sales tax).

I'd have to have a lot of confidence in a seller to trust a purchase this big to eBay.

Colin

[Sid Jervis]

Big dealer advertised prices today are GBP 5750 for refurb and GBP 6750 for new (plus sales tax).

I'd have to have a lot of confidence in a seller to trust a purchase this big to eBay.

ColinColin, believe me I wouldn't buy from ebay.

[Asher Kelman]

Sid,

Not so fast! There are a lot of genuine sellers. Adorama, for example is a good seller and they have a real store as do many other reputable sellers.

Often their price on EBay might be lower than the store price.

The Hasselblad with the digital back by Ian Daniel looks pretty good to me!

I have bought repeatedly on EBay by being careful.

Asher

[Sid Jervis]

Sid,

Not so fast! There are a lot of genuine sellers. Adorama, for example is a good seller and they have a real store as do many other reputable sellers.

Often their price on EBay might be lower than the store price.

The Hasselblad with the digital back by Ian Daniel looks pretty good to me!

I have bought repeatedly on EBay by being careful.

Asher
As a friend once said "I have always had luck, but it is not usually good".

My view of ebay is just that, my view, others are happy.

I do buy some items online (B&H etc), but no longer via ebay. I am well aware that ebay is a minefield. At least one tog I know is currently trying to recover an item that was stolen, but is still on sale on ebay. That sort of stuff is not for me thanks, I have better things to do.
I am happier supporting my local bricks and mortar dealers, they have always been helpful. It's not usual for an online dealer to loan you an item of kit. Lenses etc I can get via CPS.
But my dealer has made other items available to me to evaluate before purchase. The B&M dealers I deal with know that as long as the price is not crazy, they will get my business. I have been a customer for a while.

This "dealer relationship" is worth more to me than a big discount.
YMMV

[ericevans]

Colin,

Don't they ever provide them to dealers as a "reconditioned" unit to get more photgraphers into their market niche?

These are all handbuilt, so I can't imagine then trashing them!

Asher

You can get demo units at a good price , I got one from leaf with a new 645afd for 20K cash . I will be trading mine in for a Aptus 75 and I belive they build a new camera from the back I send them as it is only around 8K to upgrade .

[ericevans]

Colin, believe me I wouldn't buy from ebay.

I have had several large e-bay transactions including high end camera and audio gear and I have never been burned . You need to look at the seller and need to know what you are looking at and the market value and stay firm on your budget .

[Asher Kelman]

Eric,

That's good info!

Just to put it out there, the Mamiya ZD is really well received by some users and 22MP and Mamiya 80mm lens package goes fro about $11.000 or so from Robert White, for example

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/mamiya.htm#LabelMamiyazd

The lenses can be picked up cheaply on EBay.

For a discussion on this camera:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11666&st=20

Asher

[Sid Jervis]

I have had several large e-bay transactions including high end camera and audio gear and I have never been burned . You need to look at the seller and need to know what you are looking at and the market value and stay firm on your budget .
Eric I understand that you are happy with ebay, as I said:
My view of ebay is just that, my view, others are happy.

We all adjust our behaviour depending on our experiences, I did.
Let me be clear, many folk are happy with ebay, based on my experience I am not happy;
I am in no way saying that those folk are wrong.

[leonardobarreto.com]

I think that PhaseOne digital backs are dedicated to one specific platform, like "for Hasselblad V", or "Rollei". In this case one has to think carefully which way to go, I think that you can always use the back on a 4x5 adapter AND your MF, or not?

The problem now is that Rollei is no been sold in the US and Mamiya's future is not clear...

On the other side, other digital backs have adopted the strategy of making universal backs that can be used -- with a modular adapter -- with "all mayor MF and LF systems" ... but PhaseOne has more than half of the digital back market share ...

I like Mamiya because I always had one, from the twin lens reflex C-3xx, to the legendary RB, the RZ, to a 645 manual.

Also, remember, the H1 is not really a Hasselblad, I saw one in Yodobashi, -- the B&H of Tokyo -- that was the exact same H1 model with the name "Fujifilm" where Hasselblad usually goes in the forehead of the body. So Mamiya is not exactly the lower class brand here, I think that they are about at the same level, only one is the struggling cousin and the other a rich son of european aristocrat but broke mother and a rich and powerful father a bit embarrassed to use the name Fujifilm (that really sounds cheap)

... got to go to work

[leonardobarreto.com]

It is a 22 megapixel back, let me copy and paste

Hasselblad H1 Kit, PHASE ONE P25 digital back.
For Auction: Less than 7 hours use on P25 Phase One Back. I am a Professional Photographer http://www.iandaniel.com and I purchased this set up about 9 months ago New. I used it for two jobs and haven't touched since. I am shooting different photography now and would rather see this Set up further some one else. Whats included: Phase One setup- P25 Digital back 25 ft. fire wire cord Two batteries with charger Rugged Case- waterproof white balance bord all cables and adapters and protector plates Hasselblad kit- HC 80 mm 2.8 Lens Auto Focus Film back two Batteries and Chargers All cabels adaptors, The digital back fits on the Hasselblad perfectly and this camera takes pristene photos. Everything works Perfectly!

[leonardobarreto.com]

http://cgi.ebay.com/PHASE-ONE-RGB-LIGHTSENSOR-FLICKER-PROBE-POWERPHASE-FX_W0QQitemZ150018047117QQihZ005QQcategoryZ15215QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


by the way.. what is a "PHASE ONE RGB LIGHTSENSOR FLICKER PROBE POWERPHASE FX+"

[Paul Schefz]

it sounds like you have never really shot MF...so i would definitely try out every system..rent it, borrow it, use it...i have tried, used and owned pretty much everything from Mamiya RZ, 645, Hasselblad, Fuji, Rollei...everything is different (much,much more so then canon/nikon) and everything has its pros and cons....but one thing they all share: it is a way more "involved" workflow then 35mm (or DSLR)..slow, heavy...and totally worth it..for me...i personally hate, hate, hate the H1/2 system (and actually like the lenses)...most people love it...it comes down to what you like the best and what works for you...same goes for backs: i have owned leaf and phase...both have their drawbacks...if i would buy one right now, i would take a hard look at the emotion...is it the best? who knows! but i think for me it would be the best compromise right now..but i am sure that will change by the time i am ready to upgrade and when i am ready i will check everything out..personally...as much as i respect people's opinions in forums like this one, everybody needs different things and everybody works differently....you will probably have answers once you look at all systems (there aren't that many choices anymore anyway...)...do oyu shoot studio, location, fashion, landscape, people, stillife,....
i have a rollei system with the P20 right now...i shoot fashion, people...so resolution is not that critical (the P20 cropped still prints 16x20s without any sign of "digital" or anything else funky)..i need a back that shoots at least 45 shots a minute...i need a versatile system with a wide range of lenses (rollei has that, but as many will point out, no rental service...pretty much anywhere...does not matter to me, i own my stuff, with back ups)...i can even get a X-act system and use the lenses and film and digi-backs for true 4x5 like shooting...i love the camera, ergonomics are great and synch speed is 1/500 or 1/1000, both of which i use all the time, only H1 can do 1/800, mamiya, contax 1/125..to slow for me....AF is not an issue for me (rollei has it), but i find all sytems pretty much suck compared to canon and nikon and i even use MF on the canon....the rollei bundle can be had for 10.900 from kurland right now (i got mine there..over ebay)...if you need true wide angle or shoot landscape (for micro detail) this won't work for you..although rollei no has a emotion22 bundle with emotion75 upgrade path...
i would strongly advise to play with this stuff before buying...not only in the store...
as a starter i would also look at the mamiya 645afd..great camera, GREAT lenses, downright cheap on ebay...can't go wrong...why not for me? synch speed, no WLF...
why i hate the H1/2: worst ergonomics of any camera i have ever seen, crazy overpriced...cheapest materials i have ever seen on any camera...i just bought a sony DSC-R1 (great camera by the way), it feels solid and well thought out compared to the H1/2 buttons where they are supposted to be, handles great..and oh: the lense hasn't fallen apart yet (sorry, that was a low blow...i was so excited about the H1...i loved my fuji glass (gx680), thought this would be THE new MF system...my expectations were too high i guess...)...end of rant

[leonardobarreto.com]

What a nice looking Rollei, and good price.

I have decided to wait for next month's supposed announcement by Mamiya of an unidentified 22mp product. It may be the ZD for sale in the US, but also it may mean that the signal that the company has survived being sold etc.

I could also wait for a P 25 ...

[Ross Stockwell]

Hi - need some help before I spend some money on an MF system ;;;)))

I neighbour of mine has a very complete Mamiya 645 MF system (9 lenses; many accessories and a 645 Super camera body) - the story - he inherited this from his uncle and it has sat in a closet for 10+ years.

I can likely pick this up for nominal cost. I must say I am tempted ;) I figure at worst I can get it serviced and use it as a film system, scanning negatives as I need.

But am am curious about an eventual upgrade to a digital back (assuming I win a lottery). I doubt there will be a back/adapter combination for the 645 Super as is - so a new camera body will be in order. Does an upgrade path exist for this situation?

My quick read of the camera manual indicates there are electronics that support metering - probably not much else - veterens please correct me if I am wrong. While I have not personally inspected this equipment yet, I am assuming the lenses are manual focus (camera accepts bayonet mount Mamiya Sekor C M645 lenses). Would the lenses be compatable with a newer, digital-capable camera body?


Thanks for humouring the naive question(s)?

Ross Stockwell

[Ray West]

Hi Ross,

Don't buy the camera, buy more lottery tickets.

Best wishes,

Ray

[Asher Kelman]

Ross,

The answer to your question is not easy since we don't know the timetable of your goals and the cash you have to support your photographic interests and needs.

First, your budget. If indeed you can get hold of the minimum of say $6,000 to buy a used digital back and a used auto focus 6x6 camera, then you should not consider this camera. For this amount, to be honest, a 5D with two lenses, would cover all your needs for a long time.

To go better than that for skin color, I'd use the Leica R8, used, and a DMR digital back, again used and one lens, probably stolen! They are worth the effort, as there is nothing, (well, almost nothing), as wonderful, as far as optics is concerned, than looking through that Lecia viewfinder at your well lit subject!

For the ultimate, either a large format film camera or a MF camera with a modern 16 BIT digital back. The former, just $4,000 with a lens and the latter from $14,000 to $40,000 depending on year and model choice.

The stores are packed with mechanical MF cameras that need cleaning and a new life. If you want to rescue this great equipment from humiliation, that's noble!

I'm sure you can take the finest images with that. The deliberate and disciplined workflow will force great habits of care and planning in your choice of subject, pose, lighting and more.

If you are going to shoot part time and don't depend on this for income, then this is a great path to hone one's skills in the fundamentals of photographic design.

However, for more than that, this camera is a complete waste, as you can achieve the same by taking some classes, working as an assistant, visiting galleries and then trying to reproduce the approach, (but not the pictures) with your own work.

The advantage of devoting your resources to digital from the outset is that one rapidly makes initial mistakes at no extra cost and then as rapidly can learn from them! With film, this process can be expensive and painfully slow.

So I'd write down your goals for photography and add an estimate of how certain your are and whether you really want to commit to this.

Photography and buying equipment can be two unrelated activities, so you have to be careful in knowing what your real interests are.

So, a new post with the amount of money available and the timetable for your work would allow a more focused feedback for your buying decisions.

Good luck

Asher

[Ross Stockwell]

Thanks Ray and Asher!!

I had a chance to see the equipment last night and after only a few moments realized this was a definite 'fixer-upper' situation. The seller will have to pay ME to take this stuff off his hands. Too bad - he has a 'ton of stuff' and there are some very nice lenses .... on eBay soon I suspect ;)))

Asher - your usual thoughtful advice makes sense -- I am not as naive as my question(s) sometime sound -- I am pretty anchored in digital -- but also have a fond appreciation for film and analogue photography.

This all started when I was casually searching eBay for an old TLR Rollei so I could play a bit with some MF square format image making. I may still do this if I can find something decent (reasonably priced) from a source I trust. My only interest in the 645 system was that there seems to be a lot of it - at very reasonable prices. And then I happened to talk to my neighbour .....

Part of me likes to dabble and I have always 'lusted' after medium and large format equipment. I have a Canon 1Ds (BTW- a very happy eBay experience) which is a delight to use and provides ample image quality for what I do. Lots of photographers seem to think this camera provides close to MF quality as it is. - but I am curious to know if moving eventually to a MF-digital platform would be worth it.

Your thoughts re: a R9-digital situation is tempting - but then I'd weigh that against whatever offering Canon comes up with (1DS MkII or whatever will be next) - since I already have decent lenses for that system.

I am in no rush to upgrade -- but it is never too early to think about what my next equipment move might be. MF- digital is clearly not cheap- so while I do not have a formal budget, (my wife would prefer this budget to be near zero), as a hobbiest, it is merely prudent that I avoid dead-end equipment that does not at least maintain a decent resale value. (I have an M7 with 35/50/90 lenses - can't stand the thought of giving that up! YES --the M8 is on my mind as well!!!).

So for me the budget thing is more about the practicality, incremental image quality and value for the dollar rather than an absolute $$$ amount. To be honest - despite the topic of my post -- I am finding that I am spending much more time on the 'art' side of photography than on the 'equipment' side.

So thanks again for saving my a** -- got to go buy some lottery tickets ;;))))

best regards

Ross

[Asher Kelman]

To be honest - despite the topic of my post -- I am finding that I am spending much more time on the 'art' side of photography than on the 'equipment' side.


Ross,

Do you have pictures to share?

Asher

[Ross Stockwell]

Asher

I very much like to share pictures - in fact I count on it for my improvment as a photographer ;-)

My artistic efforts/sensibilities have improved vastly since joining a couple of local camera clubs where there are reasonably good opportunties for critical feedback and receive reactions from more experienced photographers.
_ (abbrev unclothed) photos - tasteful I think - but if they are likley to offend, please act accordingly)

I really mean it when I say I am open to critical feedback - It facinates me to learn of just how varied perceptions and interpretations can be. My main motivation in putting up a website is to solicit reactions and feedback from a wider range of perspectives.

ross

[Asher Kelman]

Ross I love your work you are quite talented! I will need to devote some time to your pics.

May fastest approach is to download pics and then include them in an email with comment.

If I may do that?

AsherAsher

I very much like to share pictures - in fact I count on it for my improvment as a photographer ;-)

My artistic efforts/sensibilities have improved vastly since joining a couple of local camera clubs where there are reasonably good opportunties for critical feedback and receive reactions from more experienced photographers.

I am slowly putting a website together to reach a broader audience - It is still a work in progress -- but if you are interested, drop by www.rossstockwellphotography.com (advisory - there are some art n__ (abrev unclothed persons) photos - tasteful I think - but if they are likley to offend, please act accordingly)

I really mean it when I say I am open to critical feedback - It facinates me to learn of just how varied perceptions and interpretations can be. My main motivation in putting up a website is to solicit reactions and feedback from a wider range of perspectives.

ross

[Ross Stockwell]

Hi Asher

Be careful what you offer - 'cuz I'll gladly take you up on your generosity ;))!

The photos on my website have a 'lock' on them so they can't be downloaded. This is mostly to protect the images of n_d_s (abbrev for uclothed persons) as the conditions of the model release restrict the use and distribution of the images. However, I will send you a private email - maybe we can prearrange a time where I can relax the security so you can download the images of interest.

Also - I see you are experienting with a 'gallery' section on this section -- I'd look forward to posting images directly (or via a link) if there was a chance for comments from the very fine members of this forum!

At my stage of development, I sometimes get 'stuck' in knowing when an image is 'finished or needs more work'. I get it to a certain point and then need to look at it for a while till I get a new idea. Having others react to the image also helps - it moves me along and often causes me to rethink my whole approach to rendering the image. Very helpful.

But I think I am now off-topic for this thread ;)))

I will email you directly

Ross

[Geoff Goldberg]

The Leica DMR route makes a lot of sense - I did it myself. I stsill miss the Rollei gear, but he Leica is basically MF appraoch to color andquality put into a 35mm camera. It has little depreciation, real lenses, and great image quality. Better to spend $7-8k there and see what you think of all this stuff, than to throw $20k at MF digital.

I was interested in the Rollei deal, but somehow a bit discouraged at the size and no upgrade path. It might make a lot of sense (budget wise) to get a user version of that in a year or two. But the Hy6 is certainly appealing as well.

Geoff

[Asher Kelman]

Geoff,

I heard that the Hy6 will be the upgrade from any Rollei digital purchased now. However, we really don;t know what is real with the Hy6 or the Phase One, Sinar or Kodak-Leaf Versions, except to say, that never was there more motivation from the back MFRS to have the a camera platform succeed. This could be the amswer to their prayers.

If anyone has any real info on any of these developments, please share it!

Asher

[Geoff Goldberg]

There is a PDF brochure of the Hy6 at this link on FM:

http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf

[Asher Kelman]

Good pick up Geoffey!

They clearly state pretty well that we can still keep existing 6008 lenses. What we need to know is upgrade options if one buys now!

Asher

[Tomas Johanson]

..i just bought a sony DSC-R1 (great camera by the way), it feels solid and well thought out compared to the H1/2 buttons where they are supposted to be, handles great..and oh: the lense hasn't fallen apart yet (sorry, that was a low blow...i was so excited about the H1...i loved my fuji glass (gx680), thought this would be THE new MF system...my expectations were too high i guess...)...end of rant

Still satisfied with your DSC-R1? Find any drawbacks? I need to complete my MF gear with somthing like this Sony.

Tomas