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Night & Twilight Magic, enhancing beauty and not correcting it away: Miami Skyline!

F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
Night & Twilight Magic, enhancing beauty and not correcting it away: Miami Skyline!

Still a lot of photos to work on from the trip to Miami, but here are two skylines to share.
I've never shot a serious skyline before so be gentle :D

1.
skyline3pano.jpg


2.
skyline1.jpg
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Frank Doorhof said:
Still a lot of photos to work on from the trip to Miami, but here are two skylines to share.
I've never shot a serious skyline before so be gentle :D

1.
skyline3pano.jpg
Click to expand...

What time was the first picture taken? It looks like the end of the day. The rich billowing clouds are so beautifully imaged. The building are lit in a golden light that makes the skyline more beautiful than the blocks of concerete, brick, stone, steel and glass they really are.

I really like this first one and honestly, Bill, find the choice of the hue gives the picture an identity that makes the skyline have a special character. One issue in photography is that of perfection. In forensic work, yes that's important. In art, however, it's how the color palette and form impacts our feelings and emotions. Here you are correct. Frank is off in color balance. However, his departure from "truth" enhances the picture.

Frank,

I'd still love to see the picture corrected next to the one you have made to confirm my impression.

Asher
 
F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
there is no correction needed I was inspired by a mix of Vermeer and the moody dart tones of the area we visited that day and let that breath through this work.

In art you can't really speak about wrong on right it's all about the vision of the artist and his viewers and that can also be done with color as in this case with the colorbalance
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Frank Doorhof said:
there is no correction needed I was inspired by a mix of Vermeer and the moody dart tones of the area we visited that day and let that breath through this work.

In art you can't really speak about wrong on right it's all about the vision of the artist and his viewers and that can also be done with color as in this case with the colorbalance
Click to expand...

Frank,

I think you misunderstand my comments. I like what you have done. I wouldn't want that changed ever.

But imagine a crime reporter wanted the colors exactly corrected to what they were. What would that look like? I'm not saying it would look good. I just would love to see what it was out of the camera.

Asher
 
F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
Colorbalance for nightshots is always difficult because you are working with mixed lightsources, so what is the correct one to balance on ?
That's the reason the discussion is almost impossible to get into, there is no real basis for the balance.

AWB will give you in most cases a way too blue image, or too green depending on the lights in the scene.
So you will have to guess how it looked the time you shot it, for the nightshot it's about that look, for the twilight shot I added more warmth.

The whole deal with colorbalance is that you balance on a target for the area you want accurate color on, this is mostly done with models/clothing/objects that needs to be neutral in color.

In the case of landscapes you can balance on a target hit by the sunlight.
HOWEVER when you go to sunsets balancing will destroy the mood of the picture, same for me with skylines.

So that's were the artists eye gets into the picture.
For the twilight shot I could have decreased in the warmth but for me that's not what I saw when I shot the scene, it would be a representation of the real world, and for me with this kind of photography that's a snapshot......
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Conundrum getting colors right! Don't correct twilight magic with a grey card!

Frank Doorhof said:
Colorbalance for nightshots is always difficult because you are working with mixed lightsources, so what is the correct one to balance on ?
Click to expand...
I was only addressing the beautiful cloud shot! :) I am just focussing attention on that one picture.
Frank Doorhof said:
So you will have to guess how it looked the time you shot it, for the nightshot it's about that look, for the twilight shot I added more warmth.
Click to expand...

I appreciate that you added warmth, and that's precisely what I like about the final hues and tonalities of the skyline. I just wanted to see it, as shot, i.e., before you made these subtle changes "warmth" changes.

Frank Doorhof said:
The whole deal with colorbalance is that you balance on a target for the area you want accurate color on, this is mostly done with models/clothing/objects that needs to be neutral in color.

In the case of landscapes you can balance on a target hit by the sunlight.
HOWEVER when you go to sunsets balancing will destroy the mood of the picture, same for me with skylines.
Click to expand...
Yes, Frank, that's a conundrum. One needs a calibrated camera and then the color captured will be true to the evening golden light, without using a gray card at that time*! Anyway, I just wanted to see your cloud picture out of the camera!

Asher

*But how would one correct for another unwanted color source influencing ones picture, say blue light from some massive blue wall coloring one's subject?

To do that one would take a gray card reading in the area the model will be in at dusk, but earlier, at midday and then correct the twilight shots based on that. This way, so the added golden hues one wants at the end of the day, would not be ruined. The same color reflected from a massive blue wall on a model would be corrected in both daytime and twilight pictures using the gray card exposure taken in day time "whiter" light. All it will do is correct for the extra blue hues but not the light of the setting sun!
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Asher Kelman said:
...I just wanted to see it, as shot, i.e., before you made these subtle changes "warmth" changes.
....
I just wanted to see your cloud picture out of the camera!
.
Click to expand...
Hi Asher,

Sorry for butting into this. If the picture is taken in RAW, then how in the world would one see the so called picture out of the camera? I mean, the only thing you can see is by selecting the "WB As Shot" option in the raw convertor to find out what a jpg made by the camera would theoretically look like. Knowing the inaccuracy of WB setting of many cameras, this adds no particular value in my opinion.

Asher Kelman said:
....
To do that one would take a gray card reading in that area at midday and then correct based on that, so the added golden hues would not be ruined by color from a massive blue wall on a model would be corrected in both daytime and twilight pictures.
Click to expand...
Can you explain this a little bit more please? How can one correct the WB of a night shot using a reading done during the midday? I am a bit confused.

Cheers,
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Cem_Usakligil said:
Hi Asher,

Sorry for butting into this. If the picture is taken in RAW, then how in the world would one see the so called picture out of the camera? I mean, the only thing you can see is by selecting the "WB As Shot" option in the raw convertor to find out what a jpg made by the camera would theoretically look like.
Click to expand...
Well we do not have Frank's RAW images, LOL!

Cem_Usakligil said:
Can you explain this a little bit more please? How can one correct the WB of a night shot using a reading done during the midday? I am a bit confused.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Let's start of and assume that at about noon, the light is what we agree to call "white" or "neutral" light. We want to take a picture of a model, for example, by a building later when the sun will be going down and the light will become golden. However, right now, that very spot has reflections from a large blue wall such that any model put there will have a blue hue to her lovely skin and all over her expensive clothes. We have decided that we like the golden hue but cannot tolerate the blue contamination.

So sometime around noon we take a test picture with a gray card, WhiBal™ or such and then when we have the pictures at twilight, if we can use the earlier gray to set WB. It will remove only the blue contamination*. However it will not remove the golden colors that came later. If one uses a grey target at twilight, then one would remove both the blue spill as well as the evening light that one waited for.

I hope that clarifies things better.

Asher

*In fact the correction should be made on a separate layer and then the percentage contribution of this to the final picture can be adjusted and areas away from the blue wall can also be masked out.
 
B

Bill Miller

New member
Frank Doorhof said:
Colorbalance for nightshots is always difficult because you are working with mixed lightsources, so what is the correct one to balance on ?
That's the reason the discussion is almost impossible to get into, there is no real basis for the balance.

AWB will give you in most cases a way too blue image, or too green depending on the lights in the scene.
So you will have to guess how it looked the time you shot it, for the nightshot it's about that look, for the twilight shot I added more warmth.

The whole deal with colorbalance is that you balance on a target for the area you want accurate color on, this is mostly done with models/clothing/objects that needs to be neutral in color.

In the case of landscapes you can balance on a target hit by the sunlight.
HOWEVER when you go to sunsets balancing will destroy the mood of the picture, same for me with skylines.
Click to expand...

Color balance is not just for "models/clothing/objects that need to be neutral in color". This is an incorrect statement. Sometimes the adjustment to keep neutrals neutral is called white balance, and the phrase color balance refers to the adjustment that in addition makes other colors in a displayed image appear to have the same general appearance as the colors in an original scene.

Be it a sunset, skyline, peach, strawberry, Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, building with a companies logo, etc. Artistic change is another matter and has nothing to do with color balance. It's the artists interpretation of the scene.

I mention color balance regarding these 2 photos because Frank said "but here are two skylines to share. I've never shot a serious skyline before so be gentle :D".

Nothing was said that they were an his artistic version of a Miami Skyline! They appear to be composites "pano" look at the file name "skyline3pano.jpg"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
nicolas claris

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Under the skyline

skyline1.jpg


Hi folks
I don't understand at all this sdiscussion about WB.
Should it be blueish or redish or pinkish, the images here are as Franck doe/want them.
And I respect that. Fully!
This is the way he wanted to show them!
If I had to express my opinion I could only say that I prefer the second one. Maybe because of this… (and don't tell me that the hull is not pure white !-)

91AU9007__LR2.jpg
 
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Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi guys,

I am just wondering what is wrong with this "picture" (pun intended)! I hope that we are always gentle to each other while providing constructive and civilized C&C, be it here or over there at riskit. I am also very glad that Frank shares his work frequently here with us and this deviation from his usual style is a welcome change. I like the pictures as they are however right or wrong the WB may be.
 
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Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nicolas Claris said:
skyline1.jpg


Hi folks
I don't understand at all this sdiscussion about WB.
Should it be blueish or redish or pinkish, the images here are as Franck doe/want them.
And I respect that. Fully!
This is the way he wanted to show them!
Click to expand...
Nicolas,

Exactly*! No corrections are needed for Frank's vision because it's his esthetics that count. We are not shooting a crime scene for spectrographic analysis. Frank likes it, I like it, you like it and that's good enough for me!

On your boat, what are the real colors of the hull and sails?

Frank,

I appreciate your departure from your regular model photography to deliver these panoramas. I'm still stuck on the first one! I especially like the billowing clouds and the play of light on the clouds and building below. Did you just stitch or did you also bracket the exposures and do HDR to get that cloud effect?

Asher

*My point, above, of mentioning a grey card for WB correction is only for a circumstance where one wants to remove one contaminating hue, (also present in daytime) which will prevent one from seeing the golden glow of the setting sun. This is only a loco-regional need for a model in a setting with contamination from a colored wall or green bushes for example. Something advanced applicable for shooting a model in front of a structure at sunset where one wants the beautiful failing light but not contamination from unwanted reflection of a nearby colored light source.
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nicolas Claris said:
Who cares? The shot has been done to get the result you see…

But I don't want to hijack Frank's thread, I posted this image, just as a kind "clin d'œil" to Franck!
Click to expand...
Don't worry, there's plenty of room in front of Frank's skyline for your boats, LOL

skyline3pano.jpg


What I want to know Frank is the story behind the clouds. How did you do that?

Asher
 
F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
Hi,
They were planned as a pano but in the end I ended up with the 1 shot versions, there was too much wind to get good zoom shots the way I wanted it.

On 1 the sky and skyline is NO HDR :D
I stood there for 90 minutes waiting for the exact right moment, I think I shot a 4GB card full (app 90 shots) with panos and one shots and in the end choose this one, here everything just fell together.
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
BTW, Frank,

I have a picture I took in Miami almost 21 years ago (in December 1987) and the weather looks just like your 1st picture, even the hues of the clouds. Needless to say, I don't have it in digital format but that's not the point. All I wanted to say is that I recognize these hues as they belong to Miami in certain weather conditions.

Cheers,
 
F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
It was indeed not so far from the reality, it struck me also as a wonderful play of tones, it was a bit less warm, but not so far as one would think.

I had a similair experience in LA, wonderful red sunsets......
But that was mainly caused by the fires that were raging at the time.
 
B

Bart_van_der_Wolf

pro member
Frank Doorhof said:
Still a lot of photos to work on from the trip to Miami, but here are two skylines to share.
I've never shot a serious skyline before so be gentle :D

1.
skyline3pano.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi Frank,

I'm not going to be gentle, because I don't have to. Bill Miller is right, the colorbalance is off, and I like it. It has become more than a regular skyline. At a first glimpse it gives a sepia like impression, but then the golden tones start to come through. Then some brown-reds and dark greens, there's a suggestion of blue behind the clouds. It now becomes apparent that we're looking at a color image with a warm twi-light mood, but still different from the ordinary orange sunsets.

It's the being thrown off-balance that enhances the image for me. It's well cropped/composed at the left and right sides. I'm not too pleased with the top and bottom, although I wouldn't know how to improve it either (maybe a little less water). In my experience it's hard enough to get something like that on a first visit, with no guarantee for improvement at another time (clouds/waves/ sun-angle in a different season).

All in all, well done for an attempt into a new field of photography. Whenever you can tear yourself away from your studio, you should give a city like Rotterdam a try.

Bart
 
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F

Frank Doorhof

Guest
count me in also, always love to talk with fellow photographers.

I'm still planning on printing this one as a banner for my office space, the night shot is already there.
I will crop some of the water off indeed Bart, I think you are right about that.
 
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