• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Early AM Pano from Canyon De Chelley

Jack_Flesher

New member
Taken a couple of weeks ago on our Moab workshop, captured early morning after a small snow storm. Final image is around 18k pixels wide, sized to 1200 pixels here. I will probably print this one (yes I like it) but will crop or brush the park sign out of the LH side. Also, they are impossible to see in this small jpeg, but there are horses scattered across the canyon floor. In the 2400 pixel version I linked to below, they look like black and white spots, but fortunately will render as horses in a larger print ;)

cdc_pano1_copy.jpg


Camera: Mamiya/Phase with 35 lens, P45+ back.

Processing: Raws converted in C1, 4 frames then assembled in Autopano pro (really liking this program), final tweaks in CS4.

Here's a link to a 2400 pixel wide version if you are interested: http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=4064&original=1&c=127

Cheers,
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Jack,

I like the scene and the framing by the stone work at each end. without these, it's harder to imagine the scale. I wish you had a little more of the foreground before the drop off. There were probably some shrubs and maybe some flowers?

Can you give us a crop of thew scene with the horses and also the river? I guess on the right we have snow and snaking through, there's rapids.

Did you hand hold this or use a tripod to swing around the entrance pupil or you have a stitching back? How many images make this pano?

Thanks for sharing

Asher



!
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Hi Asher:

Yes, I agree the sides are needed for scale, why I'll probably brush out the park sign. There was NOTHING in front of me except a retaining wall that prevents you from falling 900 feet straight down the sheer wall (just like the one on the left) to the bottom of the canyon! Big problem with panos is when you angle up or down you introduce geometric distortions, and as this is winter, there are no flowers anywhere anyway :)

Here's a crop of one pair of horses:

horsecrop.jpg


Re the gear. I use a sliding rail mounted in the top clamp of my Arca Cube head on top of a tripod. A tripod is required if you want sharp landscape images -- it is the sharpest lens you will ever own -- and these exposures were only at 1/6th second. The sliding rail allows for adjusting to the nodal point of the lens. The technical difference between the nodal point versus exit pupil as the difference in practice is irrelevant; with the current assembly software, just being within the general area of either is close enough. To tell the truth, I just eyeball to center just a few mm ahead of the lens mounting flange most of the time :)

This particular pano is assembled from 4 frames taken with a 35mm lens on my Mamiya medium format camera, or roughly equivalent to a 24 on 35mm...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jack,

This pano is going to be magnificent. It's not to hard to go to a God-given beautiful vista and take a picture. It's another thing to have content that allows one to think anew with each visit. The horse galloping is such a wonderful content that will make the picture different from other captures in that it brings life and endless possibilities.

I wonder how many animals there are?

Also, do you have a picture of the brick to show folk what this inexpensive head looks like!

Asher
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Asher,

There are about a dozen horses milling around that can be seen in the final construct.

Here is a shot of my Arca Cube head fully articulated. Note that the tilts are roughly nodal as well, thus eliminating the need for a separate dedicated pano head:

cube51.jpg


Cheers,
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Thanks, Jack!

This device is not intuitively attractive but seems to be a wonder of engineering, like some Swiss Rubik's cube. I found this in Harry's Gear Shop. The price is amazingly high but understandable, I guess for all the engineering.



ARCA-SWISS__C1_cube.JPG


Arca Swiss Cube

Arca-Swiss C1 Cube w micrometric geared movements in 2 axis

$3599.99



Because the camera moves inside the circular arc, object distance and image window are hardly altered. A panorama at the base of the tripod head serves to align the camera / recording instrument to the object.

Having aligned and levelled the unit, a second panorama, located above the tilting axes permits swivelling movements of 360º without altering the perpendicular. The camera is fastened with the new, patented ARCA-SWISS Flip-lock® quick release system which guarantees secure displacements or quick exchanges of the units by way of two functions.

In spite of the complexity of the device and the required stability, it has been possible to reduce the dimensional weight by a sensational 63%. It now amounts to only 35 oz / 994 grams.

Features
Geared X-Y axes with adjustable gear tension.
Improved two-stage fliplock quick release lever.
Rubberised knobs easily manipulated in the cold & with gloves.
C1 Cube with leather bag, requires Quick Release Plate sold separately

How does the extra rail you have get used?

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Jack,

The technical difference between the nodal point versus exit pupil as the difference in practice is irrelevant. . .

But how could you set it to the (first, I guess) nodal point even if you decided to use that (since it was almost the same)? The test for that can't be made in the field. (Requires the lens reversed in a Kingslake T-slide fixture, for example.)

Whereas it is easy to test for the entrance pupil in situ, using your pano head.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Hi, Jack,


What would that mean?

Lovely machine.

Best regards,

Doug

It means the center of the tilt axis on the head is roughly co-linear with the center of the lens' optical axis when the camera is mounted on the head...

As for your second question, set up a pano for yourself, do the captures and assembly and you'll see what I mean; it's possibly a point of discussion for academics, but not a relevant consideration for folks interested in making actual images...

Cheers,
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Jack, I can only admire the picture. More so because I do not know how to do panos. With the instrument
Asher and you have shown for panos and their cost, I will take a rain check.

Btw Jack, this explanation nails it for me...this instrument is not for me..' It means the center of the tilt axis on the head is roughly co-linear with the center of the lens' optical axis when the camera is mounted on the head...'. Perfect.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jack, I can only admire the picture. More so because I do not know how to do panos. With the instrument
Asher and you have shown for panos and their cost, I will take a rain check.

Btw Jack, this explanation nails it for me...this instrument is not for me..' It means the center of the tilt axis on the head is roughly co-linear with the center of the lens' optical axis when the camera is mounted on the head...'. Perfect.
Fahim,

Simply this is a device that allows one to swing the camera from side to side or tilt it forward to the ground or up to the sky and the camera lens will move much like the eye does in it's socket, smoothly. This allows one to take adjacent pictures of a large scene, just as we do when we glance left then right and add up the sense of it in our brains, with no second thought. Well as clutsy as it may seem, this mechanical set of stages does the same job for a big camera as if it was an eye in an eye socket. Here the camera can weigh 2-10lb so this is impressive.

Don't let this elegant block of engineering make you believe that there is some great difficulty im making panoramas. Simple keep the leading edge of your lens in about the same place as you rotate to the left or right a tad and take a second picture, overlapping the first.

How it's done with no extra equipment: Just select these in Photoshop under File, "Automate" and choose "Merge" and voila your two pictures will be matched and joined as one. The more pictures you add the more demands you put on your arms keeping the end of the lens in about the same spot. For most scenics, this does not have to be a meticulous set up as the software will do lots of little adjustments to make things fit. Essentially all you need to do is just cover your scene with a few overlapping pictures and they will form a panorama.​

Only when you get more demanding and ambitious as with this panorama with closely similar colors, no rectangular framework of walls and doors with clear margins do sophisticated tools like the Arca Brick or even a simple tripod head become necessary. However, having this gear, allows the accurate rebuilding of the scene with almost zero distortions.

Back to your 2-4 picture overlapping handheld as best as you can stitch, it will be good enough to enlarge to 11"x14" with moth folks not having any idea that this was stitched. That's how good Photoshop and Autopanopro, for example are.​

The precision instruments only are needed when the picture is demanding such as a commercial job, this soft scene especially if a number of bracketed exposures are taken to cover the deep shadows to the brightest reflections in water and polished steel or the brightest shop windows on a dark street in the rain at night. This is not what most folk need to be concerned with.

I hope then that Jack's picture will inspire you to try some panos of scenes around you. As a start, try taking a picture indoors where your lens is not capable of capturing the entire room. Just take 2-3 overlapping pictures with the same settings and you are done! don't need a tripod or pano head. My picture of the Walt Disney Concert Hall was made totally handheld! That took about 40 shots I expect. For 2-3 overlapping pics you could do it right first time.

So forgive us for getting so interested in this odd block of machine, I'm just amazed by it and the effort that went into it. I don't like my enthusiasm for this elegant specialized tool to inhibit folk from experimenting with stitching adjacent parts of a scene. Remember, it's what our eyes already do all the time. So it's natural, simple and smart to use this same idea with a modest camera. This is far more sane compared to chasing after ever larger and more expensive cameras and wider lens.

Once you stitch, you can carry less lenses!

Fahim, and anyone else who has not taken advantage of the magic of stitching, give it a try...

Asher

...... and yes, Doug, as he swings his camera isocentrically around the end of the lens, there will be some error but it really doesn't matter for distant objects.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Taken a couple of weeks ago on our Moab workshop, captured early morning after a small snow storm. Final image is around 18k pixels wide, sized to 1200 pixels here. I will probably print this one (yes I like it) but will crop or brush the park sign out of the LH side. Also, they are impossible to see in this small jpeg, but there are horses scattered across the canyon floor. In the 2400 pixel version I linked to below, they look like black and white spots, but fortunately will render as horses in a larger print ;)

cdc_pano1_copy.jpg


Camera: Mamiya/Phase with 35 lens, P45+ back.

Processing: Raws converted in C1, 4 frames then assembled in Autopano pro (really liking this program), final tweaks in CS4.

Here's a link to a 2400 pixel wide version if you are interested: http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=4064&original=1&c=127

Cheers,
Hi Jack,

No C&C from me on this one, I'll simply say that I like it a lot. Beautiful colors and everything else, thanks for sharing.

PS: I wanted to take a look at the 2400 px version but it appears we need to register at your forum first. I did so myself but my registration is now awaiting activation before I can see the pano ;-).

Cheers,
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Jack,

As for your second question, set up a pano for yourself, do the captures and assembly and you'll see what I mean; it's possibly a point of discussion for academics, but not a relevant consideration for folks interested in making actual images...

No, my point is not:

"Does it actually matter very much whether the pivot point used is at the first nodal point or the entrance pupil?"

It is:

"Suppose you decided to use the first nodal point rather than the entrance pupil, since the difference between them was inconsequential. How would you actually follow that decision in practice? That is, how would you determine the location of the first nodal point?"

Perhaps the problem here is that there are two linked misconceptions:

1. The (first) nodal point is the ideal pivot point for panoramic photography.

In fact, the ideal pivot point is the entrance pupil.

This I realize you know.

2. The well known test (in which we take two images, pivoting the camera about a candidate pivot point, note the presence of any parallax shift, and adjust the pivot to eliminate it) finds for us the (first) nodal point.

In fact, this test finds for us the entrance pupil. (This actually follows from 1, above.)

Thus my question.

There is no sense in saying, "I might as well use the (first) nodal point, rather than the entrance pupil (because it is easier for me to determine, and is just as good for all practical purposes)."

In fact, there is no practical way (outside an optical lab) to determine the location of the (first) nodal point. And the test commonly used by panoramic photographers does find the entrance pupil.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Jack,
It means the center of the tilt axis on the head is roughly co-linear with the center of the lens' optical axis when the camera is mounted on the head...

If by tilt axis you mean the one we would use to make the camera "point higher or lower" (as in "pan and tilt"), I don't know what the "center of the lens' optical axis" would mean, nor why it might be attractive (or even of interest) to have the camera tilt about it.

There is a point called the "optical center" of the lens, but it has no special properties that would be of interest to us. (It was in fact only in the last year that an actual definition of this point was published, although the term has been tossed about for years without any specific meaning at all.)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
PS: I wanted to take a look at the 2400 px version but it appears we need to register at your forum first. I did so myself but my registration is now awaiting activation before I can see the pano ;-).

Cheers,

Sorry, I had no idea that was the case and thought anybody could view it. I can post it here directly if Asher allows that large...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug,

You may be right! The discussion is even perhaps as well thought out as the brick itself. Don't worry about it. The thing works! It's one of those things like the hummingbirds' wings. Well engineered and work surprisingly well. :)

Asher
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Hi, Jack,



No, my point is not:

"Does it actually matter very much whether the pivot point used is at the first nodal point or the entrance pupil?"

It is:

"Suppose you decided to use the first nodal point rather than the entrance pupil, since the difference between them was inconsequential. How would you actually follow that decision in practice? That is, how would you determine the location of the first nodal point?"

And my point is the discussion you want to have is inconsequential to making actual pano images. What is relevant is that you move the camera/lens assembly fore or aft to a general region that mitigates parallax, then forget about the gear and let your artistic side kick in to previsualize a final result and capture a set of frames that will deliver it :)

Cheers,
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Here's a crop of one pair of horses:

horsecrop.jpg


Jack,

I like these horses so much that I'd even cheat and use them to build up the horse galloping motif. You likely have other pics that will not be included. These horses I'd clone in. Of course, I can't see the picture real size but I hope to do so next time I'm in S.F. The development of this element of the composition could add a lot of power and life to the image and make up for the almost logical clean zones of sky, river and rocks. I like the idea of there being detail to reward us when we get close to such an impressive scene. It's like being able to correctly predict some event or outcome in a movie. We feel good about it even though the author built that payoff into the plot!

Also, just a small point, are you going to use anything to smooth out the difference in the saturation/color of the sky at each end?

Asher
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Also, just a small point, are you going to use anything to smooth out the difference in the saturation/color of the sky at each end?

Actually, that is how the sky really looked that morning, so I'm not planning any drastic edits. However, I do sometimes place a slight edge burn on an image before I print it and may do so with this image, but that is usually an almost imperceptible edit...

Cheers,
 
Top