daytona series

okay,
so these are the images that have created a hassle in my life so far. this is 3 photos of a 21 set series. i'm waiting for either a photo release or licensing approval to print and sell these images.




the small size doesn't show the sketch feeling to the photos. they are an extremely large format.

OK, I see them now.

I promised no critique so I'll offer none.

As a matter of competitive perspective, however, you might be interested in browsing the selection of "NASCAR" images available from photogs at Photoshelter.

James, what is your anticipated market and price range for these pictures?

I'm a big advocate of having a business plan whenever one is going to do business, and given all the obstacles you seem to be facing, I wonder what your marketing plan is for these?

Have you done any market research to ensure that you're not spinning your wheels (pardon the pun)? Do you have a distribution plan?

If you're going to pay a bunch of money to NASCAR to license the pictures, I would think you should have a strong idea of how and where you're going to sell them.

Good luck

this is where i'm having the hard part,
IF i get a release (which i'm hoping it's all i will need) i'm going to start with maybe 10 or 15 copies of each print. there are several motorhead shops around the city area to see how well the prints sell. street advertising agency is hooking me up with a printing service (upon the release) and i was quoted a price of $1.35 to $2.10 (based on size) per print on #80 stock. i'm going to start with a $12 price and base future pricing from there. when revineus are good enough, that i have enough overhead to support it, i'll start distribution over the internet.

but ...... if i need licensing, the fees involved with this will substantially bring up the price of each print. the rep at the agency informed me that if the prints are licensed, they will sell better and customers usually (for whatever reason) feel better about paying more for these "licensed" products. but, i haven't quite got the complete plans for this route, yet. the rep and i have to tallk about other proceedures because the licensing authority usually has a say in how production, pricing and distribution comes into play.

at the risk of sounding like a heartless donkey's rear end, I'll say these just look like a run of the mill nascar photo run through some edge detection filters in photoshop.

I was expecting a bit more after you mentioned the "junk" (your word) than nascar uses for their advertisements. Sorry, but I'm not really seeing it as anything more than an over-filtered image. Usually when I see that, it's compensation for a crummy image, I'm not accusing you of that, since it's difficult to see what the original image looked like. Please don't take this as 'your photos suck', but I think the additional filtering on the images sure doesn't help. Some people may think it's cool, but I think those types of people would probably be the types of people who would think anything 'different' looks cool. (look at the "photoshoots" posted on most any car owners forums, and you'll see what I mean, crummy photos of a car parked in a garage or driveway passed off as a 'photoshoot', followed by 20 replies of "cool!" and "awesome photos!")

If you ask me, if you want a hand-drawn look, learn to draw. if you want an old ratty film look, use an old ratty film camera with shoddy processing and handling. If you want a water color look, learn to paint

Hi James,

I must say I'm flummoxed. I often can give some opinion on things here but the market for such images eludes me. Sometimes, when that happens I feel I'm being punished by some departed photographer I must have tortured in some way. Still, I must say I don't see where these cars are going.

There's a 4,000 year old Jewish Festival of Passover. At this time, families get together and the bread is only unleavened. This gives rise to there being 4 questions the youngest child in the family is chosen to ask.

The first, "Why is this night different from all other nights?" has remained with me as a very useful tool for dealing with things that come along from new cures for the ills of man or new magnetic politicians that offer us instant cures for the corruption in out midst!

There was a great London physician, Dr. Pappenheimer, who you used this question in his book, "Mah nishtana halylai hazeh michol halelot?" He advised all his readers to go find a Jewish firend and learn off by heart the question in English! That was not just his humor and arrogance. He had a good point to make which I'll commend to you, without you having to buy or read his book.

So for Dr. Pappenheimer there was no simple gonorrohea bug, just a "gram negative diplococcus which fermented glucose and galactose". That description put a fence around that one type of thing so delimited. The heart murmur of mitral stenosis, was not just a noise heard at a particular position, but a "low rough rumbling mid diastolic murmur". There were not just chest pains, but descriptors which defined what they were not!

So whenever I'm faced with a new solution to some need or task I have to ask, In what way is this X different from all other X's we've seen before?

So with your pictures here. What are they and what are they not? Also, I cannot for the life of me see the business plan in selling things for $12 a print. That's got to be a joke? So, tell me, are you pulling our legs or where is the missing piece of the puzzle I don't get. If you are yanking our chains, pat yourself on the back, you got us good. If you're serious, then forgive me, we just need to catch up.

Asher

Ken Tanaka said:

OK, I see them now.

I promised no critique so I'll offer none.

As a matter of competitive perspective, however, you might be interested in browsing the selection of "NASCAR" images available from photogs at Photoshelter.

Click to expand...

i've been through quite a few forums just to look for the sketchy style of the images that i'm going for. haven't found any, YET.

everytime i turn around i'm hearing the wives say, "you're not putting that thing up in the living room!! put it up in the garage or in the kid's room!!"..... DING! .... so now, there is an option to purchase an image, frame it respectfully, and hang them in a room together and there is a motiff. and hopefully, a wife that is a little more willing to let her husband put some images up that she can live with . admitidly, these images are not for everybody ... and i understand that. but, there is a substantial amount of spectators that go crazy for this stuff.

Asher Kelman said:

Hi James,

I must say I'm flummoxed. I often can give some opinion on things here but the market for such images eludes me. Sometimes, when that happens I feel I'm being punished by some departed photographer I must have tortured in some way. Still, I must say I don't see where these cars are going.

There's a 4,000 year old Jewish Festival of Passover. At this time, families get together and the bread is only unleavened. This gives rise to there being 4 questions the youngest child in the family is chosen to ask.

The first, "Why is this night different from all other nights?" has remained with me as a very useful tool for dealing with things that come along from new cures for the ills of man or new politicians that offer us instant cures for the corruption in out midst. There was a great London physician, Dr. Pappenheimer, who you used this question in his book, "Mah nishtana halylai hazeh michol halelot?" He advised all his readers to go find a Jewish friend and learn off by heart the question.

So for Dr. Pappenheimer there was no simple gonorrohea bug, just a gram negative diplococcus which fermented glucose and galactose. That description put a fence around that one type of thing so delimited. The heart murmur of mitral stenosis, was not just a noise heard at a particular position, but a "low rough rumbling mid diastolic murmur". There were not just chest pains, but descriptors which defined what they were not.

So with your pictures here. What are they and what are they not?

Asher

So whenever I'm faced with a new solution to some need or task I have to ask, In what way is this X different from all other X's we've seen before?

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

This is one of your most valuable posts ever! Thanks for that. (no joke, no sarcasm)

Cheers,

Daniel Buck said:

at the risk of sounding like a heartless donkey's rear end, I'll say these just look like a run of the mill nascar photo run through some edge detection filters in photoshop.

I was expecting a bit more after you mentioned the "junk" (your word) than nascar uses for their advertisements. Sorry, but I'm not really seeing it as anything more than an over-filtered image. Usually when I see that, it's compensation for a crummy image, I'm not accusing you of that, since it's difficult to see what the original image looked like. Please don't take this as 'your photos suck', but I think the additional filtering on the images sure doesn't help. Some people may think it's cool, but I think those types of people would probably be the types of people who would think anything 'different' looks cool. (look at the "photoshoots" posted on most any car owners forums, and you'll see what I mean, crummy photos of a car parked in a garage or driveway passed off as a 'photoshoot', followed by 20 replies of "cool!" and "awesome photos!")

If you ask me, if you want a hand-drawn look, learn to draw. if you want an old ratty film look, use an old ratty film camera with shoddy processing and handling. If you want a water color look, learn to paint

Click to expand...

hey daniel, ( an opinion doesn't make you a donkey's rear end )
first, i can draw ...... i use mainly the graphit medium. i've been doing it since highschool. my drawings almost look like photographs ( this is what i've been told) and i have recieved many 'best of shows' for my artwork. but, i'm not looking for a 'black and white' image, i'm purposely gunning for the sketchy look. plus, this route takes me a fraction of the time, there is no graphite rubbing all over the place, no way for my kids to ruin my work....
yes, junk was probably another bad choice of words. but, realisticly, they are posters and toys. wives see this and most of the time do not want any of it displayed in the living rooms of their homes. so, i'm experimenting with a way to offer an "artistic" or "designer" approach with this market.
if the idea fails ...... it fails. so i loose out on a few bucks in printing and various other expenses..... so be it. i'll sleep on the couch for a couple of nights while my wife reminds me, recieve a painful amount of filleting from the lovely folks here at opf and then i go on with my life... but, what if ........... what if all i have to do is try? ......... what if something comes out of it? .... will i have known or benifited from not even trying?

no harm in trying, that's for sure

But to me, the 'sketchy' feel is kind of cheated if it's not actually a sketch. Maybe if the digital 'sketch' were burned into a sheet of wood or something like that it might have more novelty (which I guess is part of what it needs to have, to sell to the people who don't want a regular nascar poster?). I think printed on it's own, most people who are interested in 'artistic' things will think of it as a 'fake sketch'. I could be wrong though And there's always a market for 'motel art' as I call it, it may not be a genuine Picasso, but it may still have a market

James,

I'm now assuming you are not joking with us and that your really want to make a project succeed.

I do hope you find your golden egg here but check reality that you really can sell thousands of them!

Here's some caution for you. Most art photographers (outside defined vertical markets such as weddings, fashion, automotive etc) would look to selling say 100 to as few as 3 copies of a photograph but getting $50 to $3,000 for each picture depending on size. They have a portfolio of about 100-5000 pictures or so and each one is made to the highest technical standards. Normally they are represented by a competent agent to whom they continually feed a new remarkable series to cultivate a following.

Or else, if not sold as art, the photographer may produce thousands of key-worded images for stock photography. This is an immense devotion of time and labor which is not to be considered lightly. If, however, this matches your passion, then it's worthwhile. After all, some folk thrive doing just that. Most sell next to nothing!

Again assuming that you would want to make a substantial living from selling your pictures, there's no way, for your model, such a low end of the market could support you, unless Hallmark decides you are their new star. Still, I'd not be turned off by this caution if you remain enthusiastic. after all, if you invest $2,000 paying for lawyers time and licensing, you only have that amount and a little more at risk. Well Anything less than $5,000 is a bargain for a photographer's new project. If you lose it all, then you will not be incurring other costs. It's not as if you have to rent a building or by expensive gear. Still, there must be some magical market you see, 'cause I cannot imagine these people lining to buy the pictures. Yes, there will be some. But James, consider you sell 1,000 pictures, what then? What will you have achieved? How does this become a business plan to sustain you.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

So whenever I'm faced with a new solution to some need or task I have to ask, In what way is this X different from all other X's we've seen before?

So with your pictures here. What are they and what are they not? Also, I cannot for the life of me see the business plan in selling things for $12 a print. That's got to be a joke? So, tell me, are you pulling our legs or where is the missing piece of the puzzle I don't get. If you are yanking our chains, pat yourself on the back, you got us good. If you're serious, then forgive me, we just need to catch up.

Asher

Click to expand...

hey asher,

what are they? ....... they are an idea to fill a customer market. the same type of idea that puts all the other products on shelves for consumers. it wouldn't be a bad thing if they ended up in every wal-mart accross the country.
what are they not? .... they are not an image to go in a museum, they are not anticipated to be the next monalisa. lol....... and they are not something that belongs in this forum. i knew this. that's why i was just asking questions about copyright and such ........

i don't have the greed or see the need to mark up an item %4000 just to try and be the richest man on the planet ( and i'm not saying you are asher with that statement). i made a substantial amount of money from 2004 to 2007 ........ and i was misereable, asher. i had more problems dealing with money than i had ever imagined would be possible. where is the harm in trying to work off of quantity and not a small amount of quantity with a huge mark-up. i understand it isn't going to happen overnite.

i'm not even sure of what to say anymore. this is my idea. i'm sticking with it. there maybe some changes in the future, but that's the way things work. plans are just that ... plans. plans have to change to work out.

James,

I laud your optimism and more folk should be so blessed. I hope you get going and keep us up to date on your progress. You might have hit on something.

Meanwhile, try to find some simple wonderful pictures and post them for us to enjoy while the accountant in you figures out your next move!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

James,

I'm now assuming you are not joking with us and that your really want to make a project succeed.

I do hope you find your golden egg here but check reality that you really can sell thousands of them!

Here's some caution for you. Most art photographers (outside defined vertical markets such as weddings, fashion, automotive etc) would look to selling say 100 to as few as 3 copies of a photograph but getting $50 to $3,000 for each picture depending on size. They have a portfolio of about 100-5000 pictures or so and each one is made to the highest technical standards. Normally they are represented by a competent agent to whom they continually feed a new remarkable series to cultivate a following.

Or else, if not sold as art, the photographer may produce thousands of key-worded images for stock photography. This is an immense devotion of time and labor which is not to be considered lightly. If, however, this matches your passion, then it's worthwhile. After all, some folk thrive doing just that. Most sell next to nothing!

Again assuming that you would want to make a substantial living from selling your pictures, there's no way, for your model, such a low end of the market could support you, unless Hallmark decides you are their new star. Still, I'd not be turned off by this caution if you remain enthusiastic. after all, if you invest $2,000 paying for lawyers time and licensing, you only have that amount and a little more at risk. Well Anything less than $5,000 is a bargain for a photographer's new project. If you lose it all, then you will not be incurring other costs. It's not as if you have to rent a building or by expensive gear. Still, there must be some magical market you see, 'cause I cannot imagine these people lining to buy the pictures. Yes, there will be some. But James, consider you sell 1,000 pictures, what then? What will you have achieved? How does this become a business plan to sustain you.

Asher

Click to expand...

but i'm not looking at this being my "nest egg"...... just a suplimental income. it's still just a hobby for me. i'm not going to quit my job tomorrow and go the print shop. let's say at the most if i pay $2.10 for each print ... w/ 21 prints @ 10 copies each, that gives me 210 copies and if they all sell that puts me a $2289.oo profit off of $44.10 for the actual printing. no pay for delivery to the sites while i do that myself ( in the city at first ). so, when i've put the last dollar in the jar (assuming that all 210 prints sell) i use that money and take the project to the next level. if it's enough to get involved with a on-demand print-site.... that's perfect..... customers say i want that print, pay the printer, i get my cut.... all without delivery fees, no overhead fees, just pay the member fee .... sit back and let somebody else do the work.

Asher Kelman said:

James,

I laud your optimism and more folk should be so blessed. I hope you get going and keep us up to date on your progress. You might have hit on something.

Meanwhile, try to find some simple wonderful pictures and post them for us to enjoy while the accountant in you figures out your next move!

Asher

Click to expand...

lol ......... asher,
wha ........ i ........
lol .......... i might have to wait a couple of days. for some reason i feel a couple pounds lighter in the rear end.... i have to build up something special now.... ... if it's possible.

Daniel Buck said:

no harm in trying, that's for sure

But to me, the 'sketchy' feel is kind of cheated if it's not actually a sketch. Maybe if the digital 'sketch' were burned into a sheet of wood or something like that it might have more novelty (which I guess is part of what it needs to have, to sell to the people who don't want a regular nascar poster?). I think printed on it's own, most people who are interested in 'artistic' things will think of it as a 'fake sketch'. I could be wrong though And there's always a market for 'motel art' as I call it, it may not be a genuine Picasso, but it may still have a market

Click to expand...

i guess in a way, it is cheated but at the same time ... when we purchase images %80 - %90 percent of the time, they aren't the originals. they're copies. could this be considered cheating also? maybe, maybe not. in a way it's no different than removing color from an image or dodging and burning an image. it's only an artistic approach (lol ..... obviously not so to some).

it's funny that you brought up picasso because i was just thinking about that ... lol. not that i'm in any way comparing my skills to picasso!! i was just thinking about how many people gave picasso a hard time about his images when he first started. i know there had to have been a few. lol ...... have you ever seen a picasso in a room with no other works from him to compliment the copy? ...... it's way out of place. even the furniture has to be just right or it just doesn't work.

James,
What your intentions bring to my mind is the graphic artist Leroy Neiman who popularized himself during the 1980's doing impressionistic paintings of photographic scenes, most notably sports scenes. While the serious art world never gave Neiman's work much credence he did become quite wealthy with television deals and Olympics deals which ultimately fueled sales of "limited edition" prints through shopping mall galleries such as Atlas. Neiman has since fallen out of popularity even with the shopping mall crowds but he did make an indelible mark on the art world.

There have been many artists, mostly painters, who have concentrated on sporting scenes over the past two centuries. Golf is probably the most prominent subject, perhaps followed by sports sailing.

But stock car fans are not noted for their worldly tastes or interests in art. They want souvenirs. That's why Fathead has become so popular. That thar's art that sports fans can afford and understand!

But speaking of "afford", you're launching your initiative at perhaps the worst possible time (for your market) in the past 50 years. So bear that in mind before you make decisions regarding your own financial investments into the project.

Good luck.

ADDENDUM: I just read your "I'm just doing this as a hobby" remark above. That point of view, regardless of the amount of time you actually devote to the project, will absolutely doom you. As will the "run straight ahead and take that hill" mentality. It's fine for movies, but intelligent adaptation and a more heuristic approach to unfamiliar situations is a far more powerful model for success.

James, I suggest you are overlooking many hidden costs in your estimates. For example, how are you going to package the prints? How are you going to display them in an auto parts store? Will you have printed labels on the packaging? Will the retailer require that the posters be bar coded for scanning?

These small incremental costs can eat into profits quickly.

I suggest also that you get "Best Business Practices for Photographers" by John Harrington (ISBN 1-59863-315-5) and the "ASMP Professional Business Practices for Photographers"

I raise these issues because not having a well-thought out business plan is a certain path to failure. As someone once said "Failure to plan is the same as planning to fail"

I have faced these exact issues of packaging and distribution, and in the end they ate up the little profit we were making. You mentioned Wal-Mart. Do you know that they require ALL their suppliers to use their billing software. There are significant business issues in every venture, no matter how modest.

Are you prepared to succeed?

We are giving you this advice to help you not fail. If you choose to ignore it, and go on unprepared and ignorant of business matters, you will surely fail.

Charles L Webster said:

James, I suggest you are overlooking many hidden costs in your estimates. For example, how are you going to package the prints? How are you going to display them in an auto parts store? Will you have printed labels on the packaging? Will the retailer require that the posters be bar coded for scanning?

These small incremental costs can eat into profits quickly.

I suggest also that you get "Best Business Practices for Photographers" by John Harrington (ISBN 1-59863-315-5) and the "ASMP Professional Business Practices for Photographers"

I raise these issues because not having a well-thought out business plan is a certain path to failure. As someone once said "Failure to plan is the same as planning to fail"

I have faced these exact issues of packaging and distribution, and in the end they ate up the little profit we were making. You mentioned Wal-Mart. Do you know that they require ALL their suppliers to use their billing software. There are significant business issues in every venture, no matter how modest.

Are you prepared to succeed?

We are giving you this advice to help you not fail. If you choose to ignore it, and go on unprepared and ignorant of business matters, you will surely fail.

Click to expand...

trust me .... everybody's comments have been noted to look into!!!


i stated earlier that i was speaking with a Product Development Agency called, Street Advertising Agency. if i knew every facet of product development i wouldn't ask for their advice. if i knew where to go for copyright info (because everywhere i was looking on the net was a jip) i wouldn't be asking for directions here, for where to go. somehow, this "mission of interest" (thanks ken, i liked that ) has turned into what feels like the proverbeal "linch-mob" ...... i know it isn't, but it just feels like i'm defending myself more than being influenced or having advice given to me. and i'm sure that there are significant education and experience levels (to these influences and advisories) that play a significant role in how i'm feeling right now ( being that i'm at the lower end of the totem pole if that makes any sense ).

charles, please do not take my comments to offense. i appreciate any and all advice given to me. i try to look into it and try even harder to make sense of it. but my phylosophy right now is that ... i'm prepared if i fail and i'm somewhat expecting to have small failures. i'm not going to quit my day job and put my family at risk with this venture. i just want to start as small as possible, build a good foundation and go up from there. i'm not into the "turn-key" thing. it's easier for me to learn in small increments anyways, i catch all the small details which, in the end make whatever i'm working on better, faster and more professional. even if i have to start out in small format with a 12" printer, canon photo paper, cheap frames from hobby lobby, and my spare time at the local fair grounds race track ..... i'm still going to attempt this legally and with just as much heart.

I realize I'm coming in late on this, and not being able to see the images puts me at a disadvantage, but I'll offer my take, both as a working photographer and a current art major.

I view this kind of work as either banal or kitschy. Having said that, there's plenty of people making good money doing banal or kitschy work. Anne Geddes immediatly comes to mind, as well as Kinkade, and the like. It's an interesting concept, but I think four color offset printing isnt' going to cut it. If it were my project, I'd find a local printmaker or lithographer that enjoys racing. (helps to have a similar interest)

The only way to sell any type of image and make a reasonable profit today is to make it a luxury item, either printed non traditionally (engravings, silver gelatin prints, etc) or make it a mass marketed object and sell millions. If you've never seen a good printmaker print a four color engraving, you're in for a treat. They're not photographic, but have an unmistakable sense of being something "special".

The majority of these types of images get sold through the fan clubs or on the "concession row" at the speedway. Both have significant overhead, either in the form of selling at a wholesale price to the club, or in material CODB in terms of a trailer, travel, etc.

While my photograhpic/fine art print sales won't make me stop my full time student/part time commercial photographer gig, they do provide some much needed discretionary income to help keep me motivated. (and add new tools to the mix) I don't want to be discouraging, but the reality is it takes far more than a "cool" idea to make it in the art market. Adams didn't get to where he was without significant marketing (his skill at the photographic process/printing is only exceeded by his marketing genius) You need to create a demand for something different. Given the typical (not all, but median) demographics of your target market, something beyond a straight photo may take a bit of marketing and customer education to make a go of it.

Is James still around?

How did this all work out?

Does anyone know what happened?