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To chimp or not to chimp

Angelica Oung

New member
I've come across the term "chimping" once or twice before, but it is not until Don used it in a reply to my questions on this thread that I felt curious enough to look it up on google.

When I did, I laughed so hard I snorted. What an ingenious pejorative. Not that I think there's anything wrong with chimping, an action I've only ever referred to previously as "checking my picture", but the term "chimping" is just so hilariously evocative of that hunched-ever, simian look digital photographers sometimes, ok often, get when they look at the LCD.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/chimping/index.html


So, lets have at it. Do you chimp? If so, are you a steath-chimper or a proud chimpion? I'll start.

Hello, my name is Angelica and I chimp shamelessly. I chimp because there's no point pretending that I don't have to chimp -- I suck. I chimp because I like to try odd things that often do not work out as planned. I chimp because I can -- the instant feedback of the LCD screen is a fantastic tool...why not use it?

Maybe one day I'll just get sooooo good and soooooo cool that I don't have to chimp. Until then...ooh ooh ooh look at this one!
 

Markus Spring

New member
I chimp, therefore I get pictures

Hey - chimping as a pun is excellent (excuse me if I misused "pun" - I'm not a native speaker) though - maybe - cynical. Is it so different from the polaroids pros took and sometimes still take to control their setup?

For me this is one of the really BIG assets of digital photography. And it's not only mistrust in the machinery, but also trying to carefully optimize my pictures that makes me chimp - think only of the "expose right" advice, skilfully explained in http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

So I take "chimping" as a funny word for a serious occupation and a wonderful chance.

Regards - Markus
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Angeica,

The downside is that one might want to delete images! That's fine is it is the sat the last 4 images. However, if one deletes images early on, one is leaving gaps to be filled. This increase the chance of a write over. This is very very small. However, the shots that one redoes, now have to fit in and may be, just may be corrupt.

So chimp away, but for more space, use a new card!

That's my way after corruption issues.

Asher
 

KrisCarnmarker

New member
I agree, being able to chimp is one of the great things about digital photography. I also do it...when I have the time. See, I think the criticism comes from "inappropriate chimping". I think some of the guys at sportsshooter have missed shots because they were chimping at the time, which is why it has received some criticism. As with everything else in life, don't overdo it.
 
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Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Don't do it...

Chimp away and use the histogram to find out if you nailed the shot or to see if it's a "do over".
Don't delete in camera. You might just need a piece of the deleted image to paste over something - like plastic surgery for a closed eye, or an entire head gone awry or to merge something you missed.
 

Don Lashier

New member
I never associated deleting with chimping.

When I initially setting up for a particular venue I meter and pick my exposure but then chimp the first few shots on the auto preview for a sanity check on the histo. But then I may not look at the back again for many many shots and virtually never look at anything other than the immediate 5 second preview with histo. Other than exposure or perhaps timing (on an action shot) you can't really tell if a shot is good or not from that little screen.

- DL
 

Paul Bestwick

pro member
yea I am a chimpmeister. Often, on account of the hectic nature of a wedding I will find myself with an incorrectly set camera.
Because I continually check the screen to maintain consistent exposure I don't screw up as I pick up mistakes quickly.
You see, in the days of film when my main camera was a Hasselblad & 35 mm was an extra for shooting candids, I shot around 200 images in total. Now, I shoot up to 1500. So, I am moving much, much faster. That is why I could shoot 200 exposures with film & nail them all & now shoot way more but make mistakes. Purely because my entire modus operandi has increased in speed.
Now of course, with the huge screen on the MK3, my chimping experience will be even more useful.

Cheers,

PB
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
This idea that 'chimping' is bad or looked down on is the silliest thing I've heard of in a long time! A bunch of sports guys who all line up to shoot the same shot and have nothing better to do to diss others using the great new tools to better produce images. Give me a break.

As someone who came from the analog film world and shot thousands upon thousands of dollars of Polaroids to light using strobe, this ability to use the LCD is amazing. Or to check the focus. Or to check all kinds of other elements we used to check with Polaroid. The only downside is you're going to eat though batteries faster. Batteries are cheap, capturing the right image isn't.

Last week, famed photographer Greg Gorman was here in Santa Fe shooting images of people across America and I hung out with him for two days while he did 4-5 setups a day, all over town. Shot everything with a Canon 5D. Lite with stobes or natural light and other accessories (silks, cards etc). He used the LCD to do all the stuff above I mention and better, as a communication tool to those he was shooting. Some were famous folk, some just 'regular' people. The ability of Greg to communicate with his subjects, put them at ease and so on by showing them the LCD was a huge plus.

This idea of chipping is totally stupid. Use the great tools provided to make better images, not use them to dismiss other shooters who have a friggin clue! Sorry, I'm getting off my soap box. I saw that video discussed and almost threw up. Bunch of hacks! (oh, before you suggest I don't know anything about sports photography, I spent 7 months shooting the 84 Olympics for the LAOOC including the games themselves, with, ugh film and non auto focus Canon F1s. What I wouldn’t have done for a 5D at the time!).
 

Markus Spring

New member
If you're shooting raw, unfortunately the LCD is of little use. Its based on JPEG, not linear encoded raw. The clipping is WAY off as discussed in the link above.

Oh! Just read the given URL and have to admit that this makes the "expose right" rule very much subject to camera settings and properties. The latter are probably different for every brand/model, so this justifies in depth testing with my own gear to get to know the limits of my equipment.

Thanks for this hint

Markus
 
I'm doing my personal work with a 4x5 Speed Graflex -- received as a grant from Will Thomson, patron of the arts --.

I am shooting moving ships with the camera on a tripod, so I have to: pre focus, close the lens, set aperture, cock/test/cock, insert the neg. holder, remove dark slide and turn it around (the dark slide has a white side and black side that helps to remember if it was exposed or not) and then aim the ship with an optical view finder, click...

and after the click there is a half a day delay until you see the image ... as a negative,

No chimp possible what so ever.

On the other hand, I work with a digital back attached to my portable and that is shoot to preview on display, then shoot, check, shoot etc etc

We adapt to what we have, if it rains get an umbrella...
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Oh! Just read the given URL and have to admit that this makes the "expose right" rule very much subject to camera settings and properties. The latter are probably different for every brand/model, so this justifies in depth testing with my own gear to get to know the limits of my equipment.

Yes. While I have only tested using the 5D, it appears every model is different. But I'm now seeing raws shot 1 ½ stop OVER normal exposure are retaining full highlight data (not clipping) and I'd be hard pressed to find anyone's model that wouldn't show severe clipping on the LCD from the JPEG.
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
to chimp

the first time I heard this word was when the early 1 DS-2 deleted files, when chimping; that was a big RGthread. I was just going to buy the 1Ds-2. With a firmware-update, the problem was resolved, but it took a good while.


Today?
Yes, I chimp, controlling the exposure, not the image. Even if it's not dead on, it gives me a certain control.
As shooting very often on tripod, some brackets aren't a problem.

As Andrew mentioned, some converters recover much better blown highlights, than others; therefore I use' em selectivly.
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
As Andrew mentioned, some converters recover much better blown highlights, than others; therefore I use' em selectivly.

I'm working on a lot of tests for an article on expose to the right. To make sure I'm clear here, its important to differentiae highlight recovery from simply altering the default rendering controls based on expose to the right (ETR). In Lightroom and CR, I'm able to dial down the exposure slider and fully retain very bright specular highlights. The best target I've got has a luminance value I measured with a Spectrophotometer of 99.8 L*Star. That's really white! I can over expose over what the external meter suggests 1.5 stops and using (in the case of ISO 100) -1.47 exposure setting in Lightroom, keep this target just below 100% value. There is full tonal data in all three channels even 'over exposing' this amount. There IS the ability of some raw converters to take one of three color channels where the other two are blown out completely and rebuild highlight data. That's not what I'm seeing here. The 1.5 plus exposure has full tonal data in all three channels. It looks over exposed when viewed using a default LR or CR rendering as you'd expect. In the case of the ISO 100 image, simply moving the exposure slider down as mentioned above, produces a rendering that now appears nearly identical to the image shot at 'normal' exposure. Only when you view the two images rendered for a normal appearance do you see the quality benefits of the initial 'over exposed' image in the shadows (less noise, much smoother). This is due to the linear nature of raw data. Half of all levels are contained in the first stop of highlight data.

I should also bring these brackets into another converter (probably my gold standard, Raw Developer). But I suspect with a similar exposure compensation there, I will be able to produce a rendering that appears 'normal' and superior from the image the meter 'thinks' is 1.5 stops over exposed.

I did the bracket up to 2 stops over. In the case of the 5D, 2 stops really IS over exposed. The sensor resulted in overload (full sensor saturation). No amount of alteration of the rendering controls produce less than 100% in the specular highlights. The data is gone.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
"Hard to see from here, but I make it about 1 stop over."

Chimp_E29405C.jpg
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
>This is due to the linear nature of raw data. Half of all levels are contained in the first stop of highlight data. <

Bruce mentioned that many times, and I agree, LR/ACR shines in recovering highlights, without damaging other image parts.

RD hasn't so much this abilty (even it's improved in the newest version), but it has advantages vs LR/ACR in other aspects, as better colour rendering and microdetails when, just a example, shooting difficult artwork, even within defined light source. If using the LAB-channels individually, you can't beat it, with other RC's. Just look the histogramm of the exported tiffs.

On the other side, I liked C1's contrast more on shots with - not overcontrasted - daylight scenes.

It seems to me, that the different RC's render engines are a mess at one side (beeing a reason to prevent a exchange of the xmp's), but - on the other hand - allows the photographer to make some choices.

Well: best would be - point of view photographer - if there would be kinda container, °image data format°, ideally as temp-file, with the potential of beeing exchanged and translated to other imaging apps, these beeing loadable modules. Maybe DNG-3 will do that?
 

Paul Bestwick

pro member
Andrew thanks for the interesting contribution.

Just to go right off topic but relating to the highlight clipping/recovery idea. What are your thoughts on the Highlight tone priority CF on the MK3.

Cheers,

Paul
 
I'm working on a lot of tests for an article on expose to the right. To make sure I'm clear here, its important to differentiae highlight recovery from simply altering the default rendering controls based on expose to the right (ETR). In Lightroom and CR, I'm able to dial down the exposure slider and fully retain very bright specular highlights. The best target I've got has a luminance value I measured with a Spectrophotometer of 99.8 L*Star. That's really white!

Would that be the Babelcolor White target? I measured mine with the EyeOne Pro, and got an almost constant 98.7 L* up to 100.06 L* (but 99.9 L* for most wavelengths) over the full 390-710 nm spectrum. It's an amazing tool for both exposure to the right, and white-balancing right up to the 1/3rd stop below clipping of the Raw data.

I can over expose over what the external meter suggests 1.5 stops and using (in the case of ISO 100) -1.47 exposure setting in Lightroom, keep this target just below 100% value. There is full tonal data in all three channels even 'over exposing' this amount.

This is the point where most evaluations become hard to follow, due to what "the meter suggests". When using an external incident light meter, one could assume that it is calibrated to something like 12.5% or 18% mean luminance, depending on manufacturer. A similar assumption can be used for spotmetering (either internal to the camera or external), or unweighted averaging metering. Any 'evaluative' or other semi-intelligent metering will be a guess as to how it reacts, perhaps even on a uniformly lit surface.

My 'simple' method to determine non-clipped exposure latitude (number of exposre levels / EV / stops above metered average) is to expose a uniformly lit flat surface as suggested by the exposure meter (one can verify between metering modes to make sure), and then bracket up in 1/3rd stop increments (some cameras only allow half stops). Usually somewhere between 3 and 4 stops exposure above average, all 3 color channels will clip into oblivion. Ideally that should be checked on the Raw file data, before CFA demosaicing and color-balancing. A free tool like IRIS will allow to do that, it produces a grayscale file from Raw and allows to separate the R, G1/G2, and B sensel data.

That uniformly lit surface by the way, can also be created by placing a piece (or stack) of opaline glass flush to the front of the lens (approx. f/5.6 and 50 - 100mm focused at infinity), and point it at something reasonably uniformly lit. Then the cropped center (upto a couple of hundred pixels square) of the image will be relatively unaffected by lens vignetting / light fall-off, and lighting is very diffuse.

There IS the ability of some raw converters to take one of three color channels where the other two are blown out completely and rebuild highlight data. That's not what I'm seeing here. The 1.5 plus exposure has full tonal data in all three channels.

Understood, you are not referring to highlight recovery. However, when we assume L* 42 for 12.5% reflection (or L*50 for 18.4%) and L* 99.7 for 99.2% reflection, that would give 2.99 (or 2.43) stops latitude above average exposure, before clipping, with 1/3rd stop exposure accuracy. Anything beyond that clipping point will be the result from Raw conversion or (non-linear) tonemapping if not looking at the Raw data.

Now, depending on the color of the light, and the native color balance of the sensor array, there often is a bit of non-clipped info in one or two of the channels, and that can be exploited for highlight detail or for a small boost in overall exposure (depending on the subject contrast). That also means that for exposure-to-the-right of medium to low contrast subjects we can increase average exposure which will benefit the overall signal to noise ratio.

It looks over exposed when viewed using a default LR or CR rendering as you'd expect. In the case of the ISO 100 image, simply moving the exposure slider down as mentioned above, produces a rendering that now appears nearly identical to the image shot at 'normal' exposure. Only when you view the two images rendered for a normal appearance do you see the quality benefits of the initial 'over exposed' image in the shadows (less noise, much smoother). This is due to the linear nature of raw data. Half of all levels are contained in the first stop of highlight data.

Yes, especially lower contrast images will look overexposed, but they do benefit the most from pulling exposure at the Raw conversion stage.

I should also bring these brackets into another converter (probably my gold standard, Raw Developer). But I suspect with a similar exposure compensation there, I will be able to produce a rendering that appears 'normal' and superior from the image the meter 'thinks' is 1.5 stops over exposed.

Please make sure that the 'over' exposure you are going to mention in your final article is related to a well understood 'normal' exposure. My suggestion is to specify the exposure latitude above average exposure, because that can be determined accurately and independently by everybody for their own camera and specific metering calibration.

I did the bracket up to 2 stops over. In the case of the 5D, 2 stops really IS over exposed. The sensor resulted in overload (full sensor saturation). No amount of alteration of the rendering controls produce less than 100% in the specular highlights. The data is gone.

Depending on you exposure metering(!), and assuming a calibration for medium gray at 12.5% luminance, your White target should almost exactly fit in the latitude, but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying. That doesn't mean that we disagree about the huge potential that e.g. Lightroom/ACR adds to image quality, it does. It also stresses the point to expose for the whites, to avoid clipping beyond detail repair and maximize signal to noise in single exposure shots. That is also the point that the Camera's clipping indicator on the LCD may be of use, but that depends on what it is based on (luminance, unweighted RGB, or a single channel).

Looking forward to the final article,

Bart
 

Jerome Love

New member
In reference to checking exposure with the LCD and the must read "expose right" there's also this on LL:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18258&hl=

If you're shooting raw, unfortunately the LCD is of little use. Its based on JPEG, not linear encoded raw. The clipping is WAY off as discussed in the link above.

I thought he addressed that issue and and enlightened us with the fact that all linear encoding is done after raw conversion and that the camera does no linear processing? And as chimping goes, I do it for the above reason, to check the histogram for blown highlights and control of exposure. I don't see it as a problem, it's just another convienience over film.
 

Don Lashier

New member
Like the term "hacking", "chimping" has taken on dual connotations, one negative and one positive. Checking your exposure is kosher while goggling (at least to excess) is not.

- DL
 
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Andrew Rodney

New member
Andrew thanks for the interesting contribution.

Just to go right off topic but relating to the highlight clipping/recovery idea. What are your thoughts on the Highlight tone priority CF on the MK3.

Cheers,

Paul

Have no experience with the MK3 if you're referring to the newer Canon (not sure what MK3 is).
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Would that be the Babelcolor White target?

Yes. I sent my results to Danny who wants to send me a newer target (mine was a beta). Also interesting, while other targets had slightly lower L values (98, 97), when I shot all of them and measured them in LR, they showed slightly higher clipping values. Could be due to their surfaces according to Danny.

This is the point where most evaluations become hard to follow, due to what "the meter suggests". When using an external incident light meter, one could assume that it is calibrated to something like 12.5% or 18% mean luminance, depending on manufacturer.

I was using an old Minolta Flash Meter III and a new Sekonic L-758 DR.

Now, depending on the color of the light, and the native color balance of the sensor array, there often is a bit of non-clipped info in one or two of the channels, and that can be exploited for highlight detail or for a small boost in overall exposure (depending on the subject contrast).

I used Balcar strobes to light the targets (very flat, 1/10 a stop all four corners according to the meter.

The ISO 400 image 1.5 stops over normal (recommended) meter exposure shows obvious improved quality in shadow noise. At 100, you can see it but its not at all night and day. So far, while it appears the math that suggests ETTR really works, the practical implantations are still iffy. You can't rely on the LCD which (getting back on topic) is frustrating and you effectively lose 1 and half stops. The exercise does prove that under exposing is not good. The other issue is we certainly don't want to clip highlights we hope to reproduce so ETTR should be used with caution. I say that because given under exposure and more noise, which one can handle to a degree, or true sensor clipping which one can't, its clear which is the lesser of two evils.

The good news is people who shoot Raw and view the images using a default rendering in something like CR or Lightroom and think they've over exposed, may find they have a good, proper exposure after all.

While I've been aware of ETTR since the Luminous Landscape article of several years ago, what got me started was a trip I took with the author down the Amazon in April with some students. I was surprised how many had set their cameras to minus 1 stop because it make the images on their LCD's look better. That was kind of a shock.

Here's a small piece of one target shot at ISO 400. Top minus one stop, middle is normal, bottom is plus 1.5. Not sure how well you'll see the differences here at this size (in Photoshop, pretty obvious what's happening noise wise in the black patch).
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
So it seems the practical implications of ETTR (Expose To The Right) is better data. I've proven this to myself and the math proves it too. But I have some issues and questions.

What can we do about the LCD (getting back to the original topic). Seems nothing. Playing with picture styles helps a tad.

What do we do about the in camera meter? I know with my external, I could set it to compensate a good stop, stop and a half and normalize the Raw with my custom LR setting. But can I rely on the in-camera meter? What metering mode? If I have the time to use an external incident meter, OK no big deal but in the field? If I set compensation to get closer to ETTR, I risk blowing out highlights if I'm off a tad. The metering is a pretty complex beast unless I spot meter and adjust (slower). Using the metering 'as is' the image looks pretty good most of the time, I'm far farther from the dreaded highlight clip but at the expense of a very conservative exposure that adds more noise into the capture. At lower ISO, its not a big deal. At higher ISO it is but then if I need to shoot at 800, I need to shoot at 800, not 400 to get ETTR. Of course we know that if we want the most best possible data, we use low ISO settings. But if I'm shooting under low light, I want the image even if that means noise. Noise and an image is better than less noise and no image. I'm perplexed.

I still want the camera manufactures to give me an LCD that's based on the linear Raw, not a JPEG I'm not going to capture. That would go a long way towards getting a handle on ETTR using the in camera metering.

I guess if I'm shooting slowly (I'm lighting the scene, I'm using the external meter which I trust far more, maybe I could bracket if its a static shot), ETTR is the way to go. Shooting on the fly? Not sure. I probably will err on the side of slight 'over exposure' as far as the meter is suggesting than the other way around.
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
I'm working on a lot of tests for an article on expose to the right. To make sure I'm clear here, its important to differentiae highlight recovery from simply altering the default rendering controls based on expose to the right (ETR). In Lightroom and CR, I'm able to dial down the exposure slider and fully retain very bright specular highlights. The best target I've got has a luminance value I measured with a Spectrophotometer of 99.8 L*Star. That's really white! I can over expose over what the external meter suggests 1.5 stops and using (in the case of ISO 100) -1.47 exposure setting in Lightroom, keep this target just below 100% value. There is full tonal data in all three channels even 'over exposing' this amount. There IS the ability of some raw converters to take one of three color channels where the other two are blown out completely and rebuild highlight data. That's not what I'm seeing here. The 1.5 plus exposure has full tonal data in all three channels. It looks over exposed when viewed using a default LR or CR rendering as you'd expect. In the case of the ISO 100 image, simply moving the exposure slider down as mentioned above, produces a rendering that now appears nearly identical to the image shot at 'normal' exposure. Only when you view the two images rendered for a normal appearance do you see the quality benefits of the initial 'over exposed' image in the shadows (less noise, much smoother). This is due to the linear nature of raw data. Half of all levels are contained in the first stop of highlight data.

That's interesting as it's almost exactly what I've experienced with real world shooting. One thing that does annoy me is that the highlight recovery tool in ACR seems to work by lowering contrast and darkening the data already present rather than rebuilding overexposed areas.

I'm a wedding shooter and have to be very careful using the highlight recovery to bring back blown whites in the dress as more often than not the mid tones lose too much contrast by the time the whites are recovered. What I would love would be for the highlight recovery to rebuild just the 'blown' areas and replace them without affecting overall tonality and contrast.

To date the best way to handle an image with blown highlights that need to be recovered without affecting the rest of the image is layering the darker recovered (via the exposure slider) image onto the regular one and work with masks and blending modes.

I have to agree with Andrew in that I err to the side of slight overexposure with my 5D's using ACR, I know what I can recover. Where it falls flat is when combining flash with ambient where overexposing the fill/flash means darkening the ambient and ruining the look or fill ratio. That is why I'm so histogram/image conscious when shooting with flash, I need to know if I'm on the ball or not while trying to outguess the canon brain. When shooting with ambient only I need to chimp much less.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Andrew,

But can I rely on the in-camera meter?

This is not a direct answer to your question, but may have some bearing on your considerations. Please excuse the tedious explanation, but casual explanations in this area can lead to misunderstandings.

By very roundabout reading between the lines of a procedure recommended by Canon for confirming "at home" the operation of the automatic exposure system in its digital SLR cameras, I have come to conclude that Canon, in those cameras, uses an exposure meter calibration which follows a widely used standard, namely the calibration defined by ISO 2720 with the value of K (the reflected light metering calibration constant) at a value of about 12.7 (candela-seconds per square meter). (And we often hear that Canon likes a value of K of 12.5, so this is no surprise.)

So readings of Ev taken from the camera settings called for by the automatic exposure system should be accurate (for the ISO speed that has been set.) (Note that by Ev here I mean the real Ev: the combination of shutter speed and aperture, not scene luminance.) This would be true for "spot" (if provided), partial or center-weighted-average metering modes (of course subject to the corresponding weighting pattern).

Looking at it another way, using the in-camera meter as a meter (rather than as part of an automatic exposure system) would give results comparable to a separate exposure meter calibrated with K=12.7 or thereabouts.

But here's the wrinkle. It also seems that, in these cameras, Canon rates the ISO sensitivity of the sensor (for any given ISO setting) to be about 74% of the rating that would be determined under the applicable international standard.

The collective impact of these two situations, where we let the meter regard the scene and then shoot, is that the exposure on the sensor (exposure in the sense of the illuminance-time product, H) is about 0.4 stop hotter than would result if all aspects of the chain were in agreement with the international standards (again, with K=12.7).

This is the same result we would get if we set the Canon camera to ISO 200, use an external exposure meter (calibrated as mentioned) , set its dial to ISO 200, and then set the camera (in manual exposure mode) to a shutter speed-f/number pair recommended by the meter.

I hope this helps more than it confuses.
 
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