Is this forum going to progress beyond a clique

800 odd members, 50 or so reasonably active, 300 or so who have posted about once.

I think this would be just as well as a closed forum, i.e. one that you have to be invited to join, not for public viewing.

(in the words of whoever - I wouldn't join any club that would accept me as a member)

please discuss.....

I suppose I'd better translate -
odd doesn't mean 'unusual', or 'not even', in this case, but 'more or less' or 'approximately'.
About 500 of 800 have signed up, but not posted.

In many forums (fora), the sort of numbers you describe are quite common, some have higher non-posting ratios.
I appreciate that it is frustrating for members who provide support, moderate or post in any way, adding members takes time.
There are many people who join a forum because they think they have to (to access information), and there are loads who do not bother to join but just browse.

Where the forum goes really depends on what the people here use the place for.

$0.02

Are you a marketeer or why do you care for quantity?

Seriously, an open forum does not become closed just because many people in the world don't use it - otherwise Speaker's Corner would be a closed forum. The names I encounter here I've seen somewhere else, most of us being (active) members of several places. The sheer number of familiar names - treat them as brands for the thoughts they make public - on this forum should show that it is a good place. Point is: it's about quality.

The other forum, the demise of which brought on this, suffered greatly because it had loads of members. That may be good if you want a large audience (e.g. to promote your product) but it is bad as far as noise-to-signal is concerned. Which is one of the reasons the other forum's buyer made it a closed one, to weed out the noise (to invest even just a little money you need to be really interested, which is usually a sign of not being a noise-producer; hence, BTW, the many service lines with fees).

Compare The Open Photography Forum with DPReview's forum - there are some rather interesting chaps in the second one, even active (i.e. Mike Chaney), but I left years ago because I don't have the time or nerve to wade through the massive volume of dribble the forum gets every hour. Try to log in once a day only and you will not be able to follow all the forums you are interested in. Unless you don't have any other interests.

The numbers you cite look just like life's statistical fluke we know as Gaussian distribution: a few never post, many post seldom, a few are very active. As long as the activists don't exhange like a closed circle of friends everything's alright. We may have to be vigilant to not fall into that trap putting off newcomers by being too in-group.


PS: The words have been uttered by - and are attributed to - Groucho Mrax.

'Clique' is my main concern.

I'm no marketeer, if I was, then Bill Gates would be considerd a pauper. (where's the smilies..)

This is exactly what I mean. It has a formal, wordy, look and feel, a number of folk seem to be inebriated by the exuberance of their own verbosity.

There is also an emphasis on the messenger, not the message, imnsho.

Now of course, I needn't stay, and so on, but If I see something, and voice it, then maybe I find I am 'not so alone'. Their are folk from other areas here, they do not post, I was wondering why. I also wonder why I bother to post so much.

If I go into specifics, it will be difficult without appearing to be a 'sensitive flower', or at the least irritating some folk.

It has a formal, wordy, look and feel, a number of folk seem to be inebriated by the exuberance of their own verbosity.

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I don't mean to seem facetious but your prognostication is a little too copious for my diminutive comprehension.

I've been reading occasionally but not posting, & yes I do get a cliquish feel from the site. It's mainly because 'management' seems to reply to so many of the posts - giving the feeling of a less-than-open group.

thompsonkirk said:

It's mainly because 'management' seems to reply to so many of the posts

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Given the quality of the 'management', that's quite an endorsement .

Bart

Given the quality of the 'management', that's quite an endorsement .

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(sorry, the smilie didn't copy over, and its too hot here to drag one in, kicking and screaming...as they do)

but Bart, that is exactly what I mean.

Many of you have been together b4. I personally have no idea of quality of the management, but perhaps its the way I interpret things... but to me it appears that the respect you are showing is more than what is required ... that sounds awful, its not what I mean, I need a phone call or something....

Thompsonkirk got near to possibly one aspect. Perhaps some of us just ain't used to it. Perhaps some of it is to to do with the software - I find it difficult to keep track of threads, for example. Other forums, I'm either used to, or work better.

Mark, I rememberd my 'quote', from a maths teacher, about 45 years ago, I could tell you the day of the week, too. But I can't remember where yesterday my car keys were left ...

Best wishes,

Ray

Depend on the content of discussion

I am member of an other site that has 599,811,884 visitors since January 1999, but since I have been posting here (13 posts) I have noticed a few differences with that other forum.

-- There seams to be more focus on equipment there and here on the actual work, of course that also depends on what you use. In print media, but just as example, I would say Photo District News and Shutter Bug.

-- No interest -- in that forum -- on any format larger than Canon/Nikon. Here there is a sub forum for Medium and Large Format.

-- The pro sub - forum there is mostly inhabited by wedding photographers. Not that I have anything against the field, but...

So my point is that it depends what community is most suitable to each one of us, and that can only be answered by each one of us... also, you can post in different sites, no?

Rome wasn't built in a day.
I think in the modern world of instant everything, we should remember, some things take time to build.

Ray,
Maybe it's that management is intelligent, articulate and interested in things other that "what's your favorite f-stop". I find it refreshing to read other photographers feelings. I've been making a living with a camera since 1979 and I like being reminded that I have feelings about my craft and how it relates to who I am and how I think about myself.
In my world, I am isolated from other photographers. I no longer hire assistants or go the lab or hang out at the rental house. I don't belong to ASMP or APA. I gave up my studio and work out of my house. These forums are a nice way to keep in touch with current issues. This forum seems different than others I have read. It seems a little more reflective and thoughtful. I miss the RG forums, they were a jewel. I miss Mark Tucker's down home, good 'ol boy humor and the volume of posts and the breath of knowledge and opinions. But hey, nothing lasts forever and everybody moves on and this place looks like it might have legs. So, I'm hanging in and I hope you decide to do the same.

unfortunately

I must agree with Mr. West, to some degree. It is quite obvious that Mr. K. has spent a great deal of time and energy developing this forum. It does take time to shake things down to where it develops its own signature characteristics.
Yes there are some moderators/senior members and self confessed experts who seem to dominate certain areas.
That is to be expected when in the early stages of shaping a group such as this.
Asher has been very complementary to my few threads and responses, a very pleasent surprise as each response takes time to produce.

In every forum I have ever joined, since 1998, I have found a few pretty 'standard' character types the evolve.
Moderators are generally chosen to maintain and enforce basic guidelines of the forum.
There is at least one person who has in-depth experience in a given area. He may or may not be the moderator - but soon becomes the defacto 'final word' in a thread.
There are members who take an opposing view to whatever strong point that has been promoted.
And, you always have adherents to both sides.
Being shouted down or ignored is an excellent way to start the unraveling of any organization. People who do not keep an open mind and see at least a glimmer of imtelligent thought in the replies of others, are the destroyers not the builders.

I am happy to see questioning. You make the forum.

"So called experts", BTW, were asked to share their experience and ideas because we found them to be competent in at least one area in photography. They are not, here to discipline, to teach or to sell.

Anyone is invited to add a link to their own websites and a phrase relating to your services or interests. The "so-called experts" already do so.

The job of moderators is to maintain the thrust of a thread. You will notice several threads that developed an interesting but O.T. sub-discussion that have had the new topic moved off to its own place.

We aim for the atmosphere of professionals meeting in someone's house. Sometimes there's a discussion on a new back. There may be a diversion to some arrangement for a local shoot or recycle of unused gear between known friends.

We want clarity.

Yes there are people's names that keep appearing and they talk to one another as they develop relationships. That is a good thing. A clique implies exclusion of others. That, unless I'm not picking it up, which is of course possible, is not occuring and I hope you wont allow it!

We try to make sure that your posts are not ignored. It is up to you make the place unclique by answering those posts yourselves and not sitting back. That is the way to overcome any deficiency you see here.

Your professional posts are not cut, removed or deleted. A clique would do that. There is no appetite for banning people, but rather, by being open and helpful to make this place work.

There is trust, without knowing you. I try hard to go through scores of web galleries a day. I try understand where we are in photography and what you are interested in.

However, ultimately, this forum is about you, what you do.

My task is maintain the structure for you to build the relationships that are valuable to you.

Always on the web, as in a class in college or a party, most people don't ask questions, make announcements or contribute. They just keep attending and follow.

We appreciate all of you who contribute to building this. I hope and believe we are developing a highly profesional home for the serious photographer.

Feel free to PM or email me with any ideas or suggestions. Unless I'm on a shoot or out, I'll always make time for you.

Asher

As one who has browsed this forum, on and off, for a while and who has only just joined and posted, I'll make a couple of comments about my personal view of the site so far:

It differs (for me) from some other sites in that many of the "so-called experts" are, demonstrably, actual experts. While in other forums the expertise I'm beginning to acquire in digital imaging (and photography in general) might be of value to other forum members not so far down that path, around here the proportion of those with greater experience and expertise seems higher.

The forum is also quite new, and so has fewer settled norms, expectations and practices.

The focus here seems less on mastering the basic tools of the trade and more on content and other "more photographic" considerations, because a higher proportion of frequent posters have already mastered the basics.

Part of that seems to include a less obsessive view of equipment. There's much more focus on using the equipment than acquiring it and measuring it. (The presumption seems to be that, except at the margin, people have most of the equipment they need, have good reason for using it, and mostly know how to use it for their own purposes.)

Sorry for the more-or-less random nature of the thoughts. But those are the ones I could write down quickly.

...Mike

Don't agree with you Kirk

Kirk Thompson said:

I've been reading occasionally but not posting, & yes I do get a cliquish feel from the site. It's mainly because 'management' seems to reply to so many of the posts - giving the feeling of a less-than-open group.

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...........I'm one of those who reads what's here fairly often but who posts infrequently. The posts from management here at OPF just dont sound to me like what you're describing. If anything, Asher, Nill and company seem to go out of their way to reach out to new members and make them feel welcome here. At least that's how I've felt from my experience. The signal to noise ratio here is great compared to DPR and I hope that as OPF grows larger that it will stay much the same in that regard.