Enough of the braniac thing!!!!!

Quoting Alain's reply to my comment: " I jus think Gloria's statements are a little bit too general for my taste. Not everyone here is a Braniac! In fact, there are many artists on this forum ."

Oh, they were a bit too general and also a bit too excitable in tone, for my taste, too.

A little exploring--in fact, hardly any exploring--turns up many wonderful and articulate artists (pardon the alliteration, please) in these forums.

But we need the expertise of all: those more focused on technique and equipment, those whose background is in teaching or writing, mathematicians and programmers, and even, as Asher assured me, retired grade-school teachers who just take snapshots.

Yes, we even need nerds who verge on being Brainiacs. (Correcting Gloria's spelling here--Dierk has already pointed out the ultimate reference/source of Brainiac and put the correct spelling of Superman's enemy.)

And we need all the wonderful people that I keep turning up, as I browse through older threads, who wear a number of hats from backgrounds in several careers.

Like yourself.

Cem Usakligil said:

I believe that we all are artists in one way or another. For example, some programmers create code so beautiful that it can be classified as art in its own right.

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One of the most beautiful things I ever saw was a mathematical proof. So simple, subtle, and elegant. And heck, it was in a subject area I care little for.

As to the original post, it sounds like abusive behavior from a school bully. Once someone asked why anyone would want to know more about something so beautiful. The answer, because understanding more makes it more beautiful. Personally a lot of "art" goes right over my head and comes across as simply being poor communication and totally lacking in art as it fails to communicate anything but a blast of colored blobs or some noise. But those are my tastes.

As to the choice of rhetoric, I find it childish (i.e., bullying behavior). Instead of complaining, take your feet and lead with them. Leaders do not complain, they lead and others follow their direction and guidance.

As to the comment on how much easier an artistic critique is to write than thousands of words on a technical subject, I completely disagree. The translation of technical concepts into words is trivial. Whereas the translation of feelings into words is much harder and requires far more thought. I can digress on techniqe with ease when exhausted. But I cannot easily discuss art except when in a proper state of physical and emotional being.

some opinions,

Sean

Sean ,

A good point. Technical subjects more often have clear limits of whether or not the design fits in with known physics, chemistry and so forth. One cannot have on this earth a 1 mile long uniform standard width vertical ladder fixed at its base only, with no curve and no collapse. The design of the tallest ladder possible, would be limited to several pages at the most.

However, one could talk about this at great length and even paint it, or create it in a digital image, if one wished to and then critique it until the cows come home.

Asher

Cem Usakligil said:

I believe that we all are artists in one way or another. For example, some programmers create code so beautiful that it can be classified as art in its own right. Even apparently simple things in life such as raising your children responsibly and properly can actually be seen as an arcane form of art, if you get what I mean .

Regards,

Cem

PS: Following up on Dierk's clue earlier, is a braniac someone who eats lots of bran for breakfast? LOL

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I agree. So let me restate things: sorry Gloria, there are no Braniacs on this forum!

Alain Briot said:

I agree. So let me restate things: sorry Gloria, there are no Braniacs on this forum!

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Me. I eat a lot of bran for breakfast. < grinning, ducking, and running>

I heard a story once (first hand) from an internationally renowned photographer. His student was obsessed with expensive gear, accessories and technicalities of shooting, but he could not understand why nobody else appreciated the resulting photos as being superior.

After one group expedition, he saw all the people swarming around somebody elses results from the day, the crowd were full of enthusiasm and excitement.

The student responded to his teacher quietly and very forlornly as he absorbed the ambience and visions conveyed in his *competitor's* pictures ....

"I think I know what my photos are missing... they are missing SOUL".

I guess the guy learned something that day

Hey as long as were not running with the good ole boys! (as in no women allowed!)

Quite interesting what became of this thread. A few more serious comments from me:

- My first reply was highly satirical [with the OP the target]. I had a hunch, Asher assured me was wrong, hence he edited my message.
- My initial reaction to anybody telling me 'brains are nothing, heart/guts are important', is usually much harsher than my attack here. Yes, one does develop what in the vernacular is called 'gut feeling' but only after having been deeply immersed in ones subject. You really have to learn your trade [those aspects that are most important] to intuitively do it right. Only after you've climbed the ladder you can throw it away.
- To embellish on the last, am I the only one being regularly surprised by what other people think and say about ones [in this case mine] capabilities? While I take what I have learned as a given, others are regularly astounded. They wonder how I come up with, say, a "better" picture than they. They show me photos they took and I myself wonder how I come up with something "better" than they. Two summers ago I had a nice day off with a girl, we went down the Elbe from Hamburg. I took two or three pictures with my G2 of her in front of the river, she took two of me with the same camera and settings. The difference was in the old rule, 'get closer'. I had concentrated on her face and flying hair framed by the river and some foliage; she wanted to have the whole figure in the frame.
- The 'Get closer'-rule is one of the best I've ever encountered. It includes the simplest way of getting more intersting images in a very direct way, by telling you to close the physical distance between camera and object. It also tells you to decide what your object really is. And it entails the metaphorical meaning of getting to know your object beforehand. Adhere to the rule in all its meanings, appropriated to the situation, and you have instant success; after a few months you don't think about it anymore, you've developed the gut feeling.
- Not all discussions and arguments are necessarily brainy.
- It is easier to argue about numbers.
- You can only learn by mistakes, not necessarily your own [although in most cases I urge you to err yourself].
- Mistakes have to be analysed.
- Sometimes a mistake by traditional ruling may actually be a highly creative effect.
- I concur with Gloria that too many folks too often talk too much about technology - not as limiting factor but for its own sake.

One of the biggest advantage of OPF is its maturity. The active members seem to have their place in their lifes, they don't need too much reassurance by others, but they know it is a good thing to get other people's opinions. There are good fora out there for the technical aspects of equipment, OPF is the photography community focussing on creativity - which is why we have so many discussions about epistemology and related themes. We want to know why and how what we do works.

A good thing, isn't it?

"I had a nice day off with a girl, we went down the Elbe from Hamburg. I took two or three pictures with my G2 of her in front of the river, she took two of me with the same camera and settings. The difference was in the old rule, 'get closer'. I had concentrated on her face and flying hair framed by the river and some foliage"

Damn! Why didn't I visit Hamburg as I was already so close by in Munich, Prague and Budapest! How much extra could a fast train have cost? I would have taken at least 30 picture of that lovely girl; at least 30. I let it all slip by.

That was a huge mistake!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

...Why didn't I visit Hamburg as I was already so close by in Munich, Prague and Budapest! How much extra could a fast train have cost?...

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LOL. Asher, (under)estimating distances is a trait I often see in people coming to Europe from large countries such as USA, Canada or Australia. I live a "mere" 350 km ( 220 miles) from Paris for instance. My American friends usually say, upon hearing this fact, that I must be visiting Paris very often since it is so nearby. The fact is I visit Paris maybe once a year, if at all. We Europeans are much more conservative when it comes to travelling from A to B.

Coming back to your examples:
Munich to Hamburg: 770 km (480 miles) is 7-9 hours travel time
Budapest to Hamburg: 1150 km (720 miles): 12-16 hours travel time
Prauge to Hamburg: 650 km (410 miles): 8-12 hours travel time
So think again whether 30 frames of a nice girl is worth travelling 1-2 days in total. BTW, did I mention the fact that train fees would almost bankrupt you?

Don't worry, your intended pun was taken very well. I'm just teasing you ;-)

Regards,

Cem

Dierk Haasis said:

A good thing, isn't it?

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Yes!
and I fully agree with you Dierk.
That's why, in a very old times of OPF, I did qualify OPF as our home...

PS I also agree with Asher, though I was not in Germany this summer!

Here, Cem, such journeys are a hop, skip and a jump.

I'd spend far more! It is always worth it for a special picture. For that, what is a thousand miles? To take pictures of that girl, hair flying over her face, her hand brushing over her eyes, is worth more.

A strap drops off her shoulder. She is still. Everything stops.

Now, head cocked to the side, she smiles with all her body. She is in a private room, safe. She's gentle. Her hand moves to her hip, offering herself to the camera, pushing forward, as a challenge and perhaps a promise.

Come, isn't this worth the travel. Sure it is! Looking though my camera, something wonderful happens as she sacrifices to this camera god, knowing she's blessed and perfect.

That, is after all, why we photograph in the first place.

Asher

Dear Asher,

I am humbled by your eloquence and insight. Wow!

Cem
(bows in deep respect)

Asher Kelman said:

Here, Cem, such journeys are a hop, skip and a jump.

I'd spend far more! It is always worth it for a special picture. For that, what is a thousand miles? To take pictures of that girl, hair flying over her face, her hand brushing over her eyes, is worth more.

A strap drops off her shoulder. She is still. Everything stops.

Now, head cocked to the side, she smiles with all her body. She is in a private room, safe. She's gentle. Her hand moves to her hip, offering herself to the camera, pushing forward, as a challenge and perhaps a promise.

Come, isn't this worth the travel. Sure it is! Looking though my camera, something wonderful happens as she sacrifices to this camera god, knowing she's blessed and perfect.

That, is after all, why we photograph in the first place.

Asher

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I would have bought six cameras when I was thirteen if I had known this.

Well done, Asher!

Actually Cem's travel time estimates are based on the foremost European way of travelling: by car. Trains can be a bit faster, Munich to Hamburg by ICE will take roughly 6 hours. Intranational air travel is not widespread since driving by car is often still cheaper and more convenient; HH->M by air 1.5 hours without check-in/out.

And since Asher had been in Munich this summer, IIRC, it would not necessarily helped him because the incident I talked about was a couple of summers back. Luckily I still know the girl - a woman really -, who I find very photogenic (she looks quite different in virtually any photo).


PS [to Asher]: You'll see her in two images I pointed you to, once a silhouette (this one is quite recent and now adorns my flat's door form the outside in A3), the other is a winter photo. Any decisions, yet?

So, Cem, you're saying...

Cem Usakligil said:

...
Coming back to your examples:
Munich to Hamburg: 770 km (480 miles) is 7-9 hours travel time
Budapest to Hamburg: 1150 km (720 miles): 12-16 hours travel time
Prague to Hamburg: 650 km (410 miles): 8-12 hours travel time
...

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.. that you guys ARE, in fact, close neighbors. Here in SoCal we travel such distances over a weekend just to have a couple of nice shots over BigSur or to send a few bucks in Vegas

Jokes aside, I do remember how much smaller and closer (if not "tighter" European dwelling feels compared to such "huge" countries as Russia (where I grew up) and US (where I live now)... Going from town to town by foot on a lazy walk..

Cheers!

Well said, Asher!

Asher Kelman said:

Here, Cem, such journeys are a hop, skip and a jump.
...
Asher

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I basically have the same feelings

Cheers!

I'm with Gloria

Hi Gloria,

If you're still here. Your OP was exactly what I wanted to say. Are you sure you're not a bald headed, pipe smoking, old engineer from UK?

Sometimes you have to prod things, just to see if they are alive. Sometimes you gotta keep prodding, to keep it alive.

I wish I could remember the name of the old western film, but a little Mexican kid is saying to a cowboy about his father, 'I know he loves me, 'cos he hits me'.

Here's to prodding.

Best wishes, Ray

I hope Gloria is still here.

But she has given me the impression that she's a person more into doing things than into writing about them (or, the gods forbid, analyzing them).

I took her post as a cry for less talk and more pictures.

Yet, what little talent I myself possess is in talking. So I'm as happy as a pig in the sunshine among all the articulate talking artists at OPF.

Please stick around, Ray. At least long enough to attach some place names to your beautiful snaps in that other thread.

Ray West said:

[...]a little Mexican kid is saying to a cowboy about his father, 'I know he loves me, 'cos he hits me'.

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Strange, when I used that up in the case of child beating brought against me, the judges didn't even find that amusing ...

What I do not understand - apart from those judges, who also had something against my wearing of two Peacemakers - is why those having such strong feeelings about something like Gloria, cry out loud instead of just ignoring what bugs them. Sure, often enough it is not possible - taxes, traffic laws, unconstitutional security measures - and in those cases one should do something (more than crying).

I don't quite see how this forum is remotely as important or in any way sensibly comparable to causes like the ones I cite. You can come here or not, there's actually a lot of internationally oriented fora with varying foci. It is not the least problematic to open one oneself - although in view of the argument brought forward it would defeat its purpose, he who does not want to talk about ones art won't need a forum. Which brings me to the meaning of the word, forum, from the latin word for marketing place is now understood as a place where people gather to exchange their ideas. A market place of ideas, so to speak. If you don't have ideas, or have and don't want to exchange them, why stay?

I guess this post (again) qualifies me as a brain-user. Which can only be thought of as an insult by those using theirs only for the basest of bodily functions [no personal offense intended unless one feels insulted].

Hi Dierk,

The more of your posts that I read, the more I wish I'd got in touch in July, b4 I visited your home town. Maybe I should ask you over to the UK. (not that you need my permission, of course).

Here's one, it wasn't originally from jfk - 'you see things as they are, and ask why, I see things that are not, and ask why not.' It's lost something in my translation but afaik it was from some swedish/other baltic area type guy.

Best wishes,

Ray

How well you say what my brain longs to think.

And now I have some welcome new analysis to apply to that longing. With a vivid word-picture of you in court toting six-guns, to go along with it.

Ray, interestingly I had planned to come to Somerset this summer for a few days, unfortunately I had to cancel that for business reasons. I am sure we'll meet one day.

Asher Kelman said:

Here, Cem, such journeys are a hop, skip and a jump.

I'd spend far more! It is always worth it for a special picture. For that, what is a thousand miles? To take pictures of that girl, hair flying over her face, her hand brushing over her eyes, is worth more.

A strap drops off her shoulder. She is still. Everything stops.

Now, head cocked to the side, she smiles with all her body. She is in a private room, safe. She's gentle. Her hand moves to her hip, offering herself to the camera, pushing forward, as a challenge and perhaps a promise.

Come, isn't this worth the travel. Sure it is! Looking though my camera, something wonderful happens as she sacrifices to this camera god, knowing she's blessed and perfect.

That, is after all, why we photograph in the first place.

Asher

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Daggone brainiac.

To state that science and art have no place together is a grave error. To trust blindly in statistics and numbers is sometimes even worse. Perhaps it is the measure of an artist that they are able to communicate and connect strongly with their audience. One of the best examples is that of Robert Feynman in his work on the Challenger shuttle disaster.

Called to testify before congress, Robert brought a sample O ring with him identical to those used in the Challenger. He questioned the NASA manager about their cold temperature performance. The manager insisted (with numbers and statistics) that these O rings would remain flexible even at extreme cold temperatures. While he was talking and distracted, Robert asked a young page to bring him a glass if ice water. He placed the O ring in a small vice and then in the glass of water. After receiving repeated … if somewhat heated assurances that YES INDEED these performed well at cold temperatures he pulled the ring out. The ring of course remained hopelessly crushed even when the vice was removed.

What does this say? Statistics and numbers are fine and definitely have their place. What makes art special, done in paint and canvas, stone and mortar, or pixels and pigments has a good deal less to do with the numbers involved and much more to do with our ability to be present in the moment. If your head is full of numbers its very hard to connect with the soul of a moment to make that incredible discovery … take that shot … and be an artist.

Hi Tom,

As a fellow Feynman fan, I was delighted to read your post just now. I like your analogy very much.

Re. Feynman, if one hasn't had the chance to get to know him before, his autobigraphical book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" is certainly recommended. If you are someone who is interested in physics, I am sure that you must already have his phonemenal lectures on physics stashed away somewhere ;-).

Cheers,

Cem

even those of us physics-challenged souls can enjoy (and get a lot from) the tapes
highly recommended!