Current A3 pigment printers....

I'm surprised that there is no conversation here about the current offerings for pigmented A3 printing--especially monotones. There is a lot of discussion about the new HP 9180 on other forums, the Epson 2400 has been around but offers its own ABW b/w driver and newer K3 inks--and, though the Canon iPF5000 is a larger format printer, I understand the A3 is due in 2007. Tony has discussed the Canon in at least one thread.

This is of interest to me since I'm considering a new printer to supplement/replace my aging 2200 (and I have a 1280 also--plus some Epson letter size printers--all dye). I have been happy with my color prints using color management and paper profiles from the 2200--and I have access to printing larger sizes from a new Epson large format printer if I choose--but I rarely print larger than 11 x 17 or 13 x 19 (with borders--I don't print full bleed for myself--full bleed is printed for clients from a graphics lab with my files).

My problems is and has been monotone prints. I'm not interested in 'neutral' prints, but toned. My wish would be that I could print my own toned (duos, split, or normal toned) images without using 3rd party hardware or RIPs, but due to metamerism this isn't possible with the current printers. At present I print using QTR, but I have no desire to create my own curves so I use the available curves and blend for toning--but I'm restricted to that--plus there are a number more steps in printing using this method (conversion to an ICC grayscale profile by Roy Harrington and working in it, then converting to a matte or gloss profile for printing in QTR). It works though--no metamerism, but no split toning really, and no toning exactly the way I want.

So--I'm looking at the Epson 2400 and the new HP 9180. Having no experience with the ABW driver of the 2400 and not having any way to try one out---I've been debating whether I'm not as well off staying where I am--or biting the bullet and trying it. If it doesn't work out, the possibility would then be that I could dedicate the 2200 to b/w with 3rd party inks--though I've been avoiding going this route for years LOL. The HP looked like the best thing since sliced bread but I've since read Neil Snape's reviews and see that there is still considerable illuminated metamerism. Some on the Digital B/W printing group feel that HP has gone backwards with this one by using only one gray ink instead of 2--which, it seems, is the way metamerism is normally nandled.

If anyone is using either of these printers for mono printing I'd love to hear some comments.

Diane

Diane,

This is a complex issue. I work on it regularly with my students, so studying with me is one option I can offer. I don't have enough time to go into the workflow in detail on the forum but the second, and quicker answer I can give you is to try Lightroom since it has split toning capabilities. It is now available for Mac and Windows.

Alain, be fair and tell Diane - although I am quite sure she knows already from other fora - that WinLRb3 is far from the Mac version - relatively close to unusable as even the most ardent Adobe supporters in their newsgroups admit.

Diane, everything points to a relatively near release of WinLRb4, which at last seems to be on par with the Mac version and includes several features from RAW Shooter.

Dierk Haasis said:

Alain, be fair and tell Diane - although I am quite sure she knows already from other fora - that WinLRb3 is far from the Mac version - relatively close to unusable as even the most ardent Adobe supporters in their newsgroups admit.

Diane, everything points to a relatively near release of WinLRb4, which at last seems to be on par with the Mac version and includes several features from RAW Shooter.

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Its not about being fair, it's simply that I haven't tried Lightroom for Windows. Plus, who says Diane works on a PC?

[Quote = Diane Fields]My problems is and has been monotone prints. I'm not interested in 'neutral' prints, but toned. My wish would be that I could print my own toned (duos, split, or normal toned) images without using 3rd party hardware or RIPs, but due to metamerism this isn't possible with the current printers. At present I print using QTR, but I have no desire to create my own curves so I use the available curves and blend for toning--but I'm restricted to that--plus there are a number more steps in printing using this method (conversion to an ICC grayscale profile by Roy Harrington and working in it, then converting to a matte or gloss profile for printing in QTR). It works though--no metamerism, but no split toning really, and no toning exactly the way I want.

So--I'm looking at the Epson 2400 and the new HP 9180.[/Quote]

Dierk Haasis said:

Alain, be fair and tell Diane - although I am quite sure she knows already from other fora - that WinLRb3 is far from the Mac version - relatively close to unusable as even the most ardent Adobe supporters in their newsgroups admit.

Diane, everything points to a relatively near release of WinLRb4, which at last seems to be on par with the Mac version and includes several features from RAW Shooter.

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Alain Briot said:

Its not about being fair, it's simply that I haven't tried Lightroom for Windows. Plus, who says Diane works on a PC?

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Alain,

Perhaps you missed the original question.

I'm sure you can find an answer that covers the information Diane needs..

Asher

I do use a PC LOL.

Hmmmm---but actually I'm interested in the printers--not the workflow--a miscommuncation I guess. I know how to create split tones, duo curves and do use them. Its the printers themselves that interest me because of the metamerism issues. It seems using any of them in order to NOT exhibit metamerism you are locked into using their own b/w driver which means that having created a split toned image or duotone---it can only be printed in RGB using the color pigs and then---will exhibit metamerism . I understand that the Epson 2400 exhibits far less than the 2200---but I haven't been able to get the information as far as whether this is only using the ABW driver and 'toning' it from there--or if it generally shows much less metamerism in RGB than the 2200. The new HP 9180 interested me until I read Neil Snape's review (though glowing) that stated that it does exhibit metamerism in monoprints. The Canon is more printer than I want or need.

As I understand it, after several years subbing off and on to the Digital B/W print group, the 'yellow' is the culprit in pigmented printing--so its whether Epson and Canon--and HP--have 'tamed' this issue without resorting to the b/w drivers is the issue. Of course, I can go back to QTR--I'm just hoping to dispense with 3rd party RIPS (but this may not be possible yet).

I actually have been using the Win beta 3 LR since the day it came out and like its capability of split toning. Still the printing issue though. However, split toning seems to show metamerism less because its using
"colors' whereas duotones or curves (ala Paul Butzi) are more mono and do have the problem. I suppose what I'm trying to find out is if the 2400 (or other--even the Canon--and maybe its worth waiting for the A3 printer, but they have given no date) shows less of this problem printing without going into the ABW driver where I'll be limited to Epson's tones, as I understand it.

I understand that LR Beta 4 was shown at PHotoshop World so I'm guessing that its due out soon---and the hints are that its more comparable to the Mac version--I hope *smile*.

Diane

Diane Fields said:

As I understand it, after several years subbing off and on to the Digital B/W print group, the 'yellow' is the culprit in pigmented printing--so its whether Epson and Canon--and HP--have 'tamed' this issue without resorting to the b/w drivers is the issue. Of course, I can go back to QTR--I'm just hoping to dispense with 3rd party RIPS (but this may not be possible yet).

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Have you looked at Inkjet Control? If not give it a try. It may be the answer.

Why not the aqueous HP printers? The modest 8750, for example? Or is that way off.

They have great toning capabilities and with good framing and UV glass might do well.

Asher

Diane Fields said:

...metamerism. I understand that the Epson 2400 exhibits far less than the 2200---but I haven't been able to get the information as far as whether this is only using the ABW driver and 'toning' it from there--or if it generally shows much less metamerism in RGB than the 2200. ...

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Diane I believe it's primarily if not entirely the latter. There's nothing that locks you into using ABW for your B&W prints on the K3 printers. I don't, and I've been extremely happy with the B&W prints I get from my 4800. Caveat: I'm confident my eye is not nearly as critical as that of many here and elsewhere.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Maybe someone might print one of Diane's files for her?

asher

Diane, I just switched to Lyson Cave paint CIS and paper on my 2100 and it seems to have solved the mesmerism issues. They also offer excellent canned and custom profiles for their paper. Although its quite an outlay if the printer is ageing!

John_Nevill said:

Diane, I just switched to Lyson Cave paint CIS and paper on my 2100 and it seems to have solved the mesmerism issues. ...

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You mean now everyone is hypnotized by your prints? (Sorry...)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Asher Kelman said:

Maybe someone might print one of Diane's files for her?

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I'd be glad to.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Asher Kelman said:

Perhaps you missed the original question.

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Actually the giveaway in Diane's question was the abbrev 'QTR', a program on the Windows platform, which, IIRC, is not available on the Mac; QImage also plays a role here, right Diane?

Dierk Haasis said:

Actually the giveaway in Diane's question was the abbrev 'QTR', a program on the Windows platform, which, IIRC, is not available on the Mac; QImage also plays a role here, right Diane?

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QTR is a Mac and Win app (I think there are more Mac folks using it on Digital Print than Win--and its able to print through PS whereas we Win folks use a QTR gui), but Qimage is a Win only app. I use QTR for monos (but keep trying duos and split tones in RGB from PS--sometimes they work better than others as far as metamerism), Qimage sometimes, but mostly print from PS. I'm going to sit tight until after Photokina and some more reviews of the HP 9180 and then decide.

Thanks Nill for offering. I may take you up on it to see how K3 inks do, but think for now I'm just going to stick with the 2200 until after I get through a 2 week trip to the Maine coast and commercial shoot in October and revisit this. By then, if there is anything new on the horizon, printer wise, it should be out. Also---there should be more information about the HP9180 and perhaps Canon will have more to say about the A3 (really super B, as these others are) printers. I saw on another forum that the 44" Canon may be out next month so there's hope there too. I think a couple of months may be needed to see how things shake out.

Diane

Diane Fields said:

QTR is a Mac and Win app

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Ok, learn something every day. But I do know your name from QImage?!

Nill Toulme said:

You mean now everyone is hypnotized by your prints? (Sorry...)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

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Very good!, I missed that one in the spellchecker!

Dierk Haasis said:

Ok, learn something every day. But I do know your name from QImage?!

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Yes---I've used Qimage for quite a long while, but not for all printing. One of the things that was quite successful with Qimage was interpolating/sharpening 16 files from a 20D to 24 x 36 to be printed by a graphics lab for a commercial client. I tried both ways (samples) --PS and Qimage and Qimage did the somewhat better job. I 'saved to file', then took back into PS (as a VERY large file) and converted to the CMYK profile the lab uses and saved to the format they specified.

For anyone interested in trying QTR (Quadtone RIP), it is available for Mac and Win as shareware (and at that, very reasonable at $50). There is no specified time for demoing either. The developer is always available for support and there is a good email list for help and sharing among users.
http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

Diane

Diane, BTW, I sent you a PM, do you have the pop-up activated?

We are at the beginning of a new phase in the availaibility of printers. I too am buying a printer and am facinated with the possibility that HP and Canon might have really good products to compete with Epson.

Tony bonanno seems to be happy with his choice of Canon, Michael seems impressed too.

So Diane it is perhaps good to hold off. Still, I'd send several sepia, (yes, sepia IS B&W, just toned) and color files to a number of places/friends to get an idea of what each can do using some favorite papers.

Canon, BTW, is releasing a 60" version of Tony's fine pigment printer!

Not that you were going that route, but it shows that the MFRS are going to compete at last!

Asher

To make this all more interesting---I just read of an announcement on another forum of a new pro pigmented printer from Epson. Quite a few got an email announcing this and since the text from the email was posted there I thought I might be able to post it here without stepping on toes (Epsons). Its obviously for public knowledge.

"Dear Name Here,


On September 27, we'll unveil our newest professional printer. We want to tell you

about a new printer that's going to get your adrenaline pumping, your heart racing

and your imagination soaring.


For starters, it looks cool. It's sleek, slim, stylish and space efficient. Think high-end

sports car.


But, it's what's inside that will really raise your pulse rate. This engineering

marvel incorporates several radical new technologies. And, of course, it takes
full advantage of our already industry-renowned Epson UltraChrome K3™ inks.


We've saved the best for last. Wait till you see the price. We think you'll be not

just pleased, but amazed.

So mark your calendar. Set a reminder in your PDA. And, put a note on your
computer monitor — SEPTEMBER 27 — it's the official release date of what
promises to be a huge new leap forward in professional printing.

This is going to be exciting. "

Hmmmm

Diane

I saw something somewhere about a Pro 3800 coming on that date at the ~US$1000-1100 price point.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

Nill Toulme said:

I saw something somewhere about a Pro 3800 coming on that date at the ~US$1000-1100 price point.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

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Well, that could be interesting to me---esp. with smaller size, price not too much more than price of 2400 (less, of course, if you scout around) and a bit newer technology.

For starters, it looks cool. It's sleek, slim, stylish and space efficient. Think high-end

sports car.

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poor analogy, hope they know mare about printers than they do about 'sports cars'

There are a number of printers coming out at PhotoKina so if you are planning to make a purchase it is best to wait until the end of the show. Same with digital cameras and just about anything else. I think Apple will also have new monitors either this year or early next year. Watch for current prices too. Usually, if prices go down or promotions become very appealing, then a new version is about to be released. Not a bad time to buy if getting the lowest price is more important than getting the latest version. For me, the later version prevails over the lowest price so I am in wait mode. Some years are worst than other. Last year I replaced just about everything. This year is low key so far on the upgrade front but things may change quick.

Alain Briot said:

There are a number of printers coming out at PhotoKina so if you are planning to make a purchase it is best to wait until the end of the show. .

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There have been several Epson printers already announced that will be introduced at PHotokina--the new Claria inks-???--dye based I believe and none in the price range Nill mentioned. This one isn't on their list--so I'm assuming they are trying to steal the show from HP and Canon with this one. Interesting who received the email from them--maybe they were all owners of older Pro printers. I would think most people planning on buying a printer will wait another week--but a 'mid' priced pro in a smaller size would be interesting to a lot of people and so has stirred up some interest.

There are always lots of new cameras--several DSLRs and the Leica are of interest to some, but I'm settled for the time being and only have another TSe lens and a new printer on my list.

Diane

Diane Fields said:

"...For starters, it looks cool. It's sleek, slim, stylish and space efficient. Think high-end sports car. ..."

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My 4800 reminds me more of a Mini Cooper. About the same size, too. ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

My emails were for extra discount on the 4800, 7800 and the 9800.

Asher

Nill Toulme said:

[...] a Mini Cooper

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Which, coincidentally, is their original sports model. There have been lots of very impressive tuned Cooper around killing any Porsche, Ferrari or even Lambo at traffic lights ...

Interestingly, on the Digtial B/W Print group, when this was brought up, others had information and it appears there are several other A3/B/superB printers up to 17" wide on the horizon to most likely be introduced at Photokina. In early October, when I return, there should be some good choices offered. Since I'm in no hurry, I'll see how they work out when people actually begin to print with them. Looks like a good year for those of us looking for a new printer that needs less room than a garage LOL.

Diane