Critique and sharing ideas: Meaning of "Open"!

Joe Schiavo said:

Thank you Asher.

you can see a lot of our work at www.seeyourreflections.com

this is our business' web site. if you go to our "client login" you will be able to see some of the motorsport events we have shot and some "other" stuff... our Portfolio is bare right now... been VERY busy.

in the past 2 months, we have shot about 12000 images in total, had a high success rate and have also been experiencing an increase in business due to the AZ heat remitting.

i will read the other postings you listed. i think i may have to get a faster/better laptop and a couple of monitors to display photos and take orders. i suppose Printing can wait for a bit
__________________
Beginning our Family Photography Business is a great experience.

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Hi Joe,

I think you have to look at your marketing as a system, and not look only (or first) at each individual part. Asher's comments are very good. Personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change, but this is because my approach is very different from yours.

Alain,

Could you suggest the top three things you might change?

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Alain,
Could you suggest the top three things you might change?
Asher

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I need more information, essentially regarding the fundamental approach for Joe's business, goals, etc. All I am saying is if this was my business, I would do things very differently. I have also helped others in similar businesses and they have been successful doing it very differently. However, I am not here to impose my views which is what I feel I would be doing if I was to list everything I don't think work.

Alain Briot said:

Hi Joe,

I think you have to look at your marketing as a system, and not look only (or first) at each individual part. Asher's comments are very good. Personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change, but this is because my approach is very different from yours.

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Alain,

It is great that you actually checked Joe's website. Not many of us do that! So you had a definite reaction. It is the thoughts you had to deal with what you saw that are interesting here.

I probably didn't post correctly what I was requesting. I'm just referring to the statement that you "see a lot on your website that I would change".

We just want to know which items you were referring to? That would be most helpful as website appearance and construction is our face and character to the world.

Thanks so much,

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Alain,

It is great that you actually checked Joe's website. Not many of us do that! So you had a definite reaction. It is the thoughts you had to deal with what you saw that are interesting here.

I probably didn't post correctly what I was requesting. I'm just referring to the statement that you "see a lot on your website that I would change".

We just want to know which items you were referring to? That would be most helpful as website appearance and construction is our face and character to the world.

Thanks so much,

Asher

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I really don't feel comfortable discussing what I consider to be private in public. I normally address these issues 1 on 1.

Alain Briot said:

I really don't feel comfortable discussing what I consider to be private in public. I normally address these issues 1 on 1.

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Alain,

This is an open forum where we help one another. Once something is raised, it is logical we should follow through. That is the point! Unless of course Joe considers it private. However, your input I think would be helpful to everyone as you already made an assessment on something we all would like to improve!

Joe,

Do you have any problems getting some pointers on your website? Alain is very experienced and I feel that we all could beneift from his take.

Asher

I'm not speaking for Joe.. but in a lot of cases (mine being one), being a photographer doesn't mean being able to design a good web site. Putting together a site that is cohesive, and allows a user to gain access to images and information in a way that makes the guest want to come back is something i'm sure most of us would like to get advice on. From the tone of this forum so far, I don't see that advice would be taken as anything more than being helpful.. and not critisism

jim

Originally posted by Jim Collum

I'm not speaking for Joe.. but in a lot of cases (mine being one), being a photographer doesn't mean being able to design a good web site.

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I'm in the same boat as Jim regarding this. In fact, I would venture to guess that the same personal characteristics which aid me as a photographer impede me as a web designer. So, I too, welcome any such discussion.

Originally posted by Alain Briot

I really don't feel comfortable discussing what I consider to be private in public. I normally address these issues 1 on 1.

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Alain, this is exactly the sort of discussion that this website is all about: frank discussion as necessary, sharing our expertise with each other so that we may each raise each other's photographic success.

Originally posted by Alain Briot

Personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change

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I really don't think it's very fair to remark that you have extensive criticisms, and then be entirely non-forthcoming about them. Also, on the subject of discussing the private in public, note that Joe said, "we take no offense to any constructive crticism or ideas to improve. feel free to elaborate in the spirit of giving ideas, and don't see it as impositions".

While I think that an open discussion would benefit everybody: at least email to Joe a rough idea of what you were talking about, please.

Thanks,

Mike

www.mikespinak.com

I did not realize that saying "personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change" meant I would be forced to act in a way that I find personally very uncomfortable. I will make sure to avoid making this type of statement in the future.

Alain,

I am frustrated that I am either not clear enough, persuasive enough or eloquent enough to explain what "open" in OPF means. To me it means that once you realize you have information to help someone and/or you are asked, you should without question do so.

If one has scruples, one can't be a thief, if one can't stand the site of blood, one is not a surgeon and for sure a whore can't refuse to remove her panties! That's the way life is! Here it is much less unpleasant. All we have to do is be generous.

Let's recall what we said.

Alain Briot said:

Alain Briot
Moderator

Hi Joe,

I think you have to look at your marketing as a system, and not look only (or first) at each individual part. Asher's comments are very good. Personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change, but this is because my approach is very different from yours.
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Alain, Could you suggest the top three things you might change? Asher

Alain Briot said:

I need more information, essentially regarding the fundamental approach for Joe's business, goals, etc. All I am saying is if this was my business, I would do things very differently. I have also helped others in similar businesses and they have been successful doing it very differently. However, I am not here to impose my views which is what I feel I would be doing if I was to list everything I don't think work.
__________________
Subscribe to Alain's Free email Newsletter:
http://www.beautiful-landscape.com

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Joe Schiavo said:

1. thank you again for your candid advice.

2. as for suggestions and things to change: we welcome ideas and suggestions. we take no offense to any constructive crticism or ideas to improve. feel free to elaborate in the spirit of giving ideas, and don't see it as impositions; or send us an e-mail as i don't think the post would be allowed in this particular forum. we really appreciate your commentary.

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Asher Kelman said:

Alain,

It is great that you actually checked Joe's website. Not many of us do that! So you had a definite reaction. It is the thoughts you had to deal with what you saw that are interesting here.

I probably didn't post correctly what I was requesting. I'm just referring to the statement that you "see a lot on your website that I would change".

We just want to know which items you were referring to? That would be most helpful as website appearance and construction is our face and character to the world.

Thanks so much,

Asher

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Alain Briot said:

I really don't feel comfortable discussing what I consider to be private in public. I normally address these issues 1 on 1.
__________________
Subscribe to Alain's Free email Newsletter:
http://www.beautiful-landscape.com

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Alain Briot said:

I did not realize that saying "personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change" meant I would be forced to act in a way that I find personally very uncomfortable. I will make sure to avoid making this type of statement in the future.

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So, Alain,

For the future, that may be something worth noting, as It would really disappoint me if we had social, mental or business impediments to freely sharing knowledge at the drop of a hat. It's still serious, but, as I said, that's for the future.

Be that as it may, we have to deal with today, right here and now. Overlooking or bipassing this is even more difficult for us than it might be for addressing it. Joe has already clearly given his O.K. so that is not a reason or even an excuse.

Overlooking or bipassing this, doesn't work in a serious open forum like this. I would appreciate that we get over this discomfort!

As otherwise, why should I host this forum, why would you and others moderate or anyone else even turn up?

So, I'm insisting for us to address this. As Jim and Mike have pointed out, we all are here to benefit. Joe and his wife is starting a new business. He asked for ALL the help through the experience and knowledge we can share.

I want Joe and his wife to succeed. (I pointed out exactly that to you in the previous thread where you offered coursework http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1018 ).

That is why we are here, as a community for real fun, exchange of experience and to help one another for free. I'm prepared to do this and so is everyone else.

It is therefore, to me at least, unacceptable to have a discussion in OPF where one is holding back clearly knowledge that can be of benefit.

I objected previously in private and in my posts. I tried to do it so gently, but to no avail.

So now, I have no choice but to draw a line.

So I ask one last time to please get over this discomfort, as free exchange is the only fee for admission to this open forum.

I would be appreciative of a full and substantial description of your ideas how the website could, might and should be improved, since the door has been opened and we have to therefore take responsibility.

So Alain, do me a huge favor and do it (as I know you fully can) and it would be a benefit and learning experience for us all (and also a star in you cap!).

Asher,

I am not holding back anything because it never was my intent to write my personal opinion of Joe's site on this forum. Why? Because, as I previously explained, I do not feel comfortable sharing certain things in a public forum. I have been a teacher for over 15 years and my experience has taught me when to present certain things in public and when not to. My students appreciate my approach because it is respectful of their privacy and I don't see why I should violate it just because I wrote something too fast. I should have twisted my tongue in my mouth 7 times before typing "personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change" ;-) (it's a French "saying" in case someone wonders).

There are things that are not to be shared in public in my view. If shared publicly, the result can be worse than if these things were never said. There is a time and a place for everything. I don't think this time and place are here yet in regards to Joe's site. This has nothing to do with this being a free forum or with your desire to have an open exchange, which I strongly support as you know. Rather, it has everything to do with my teaching philosophy, my experience, and my assessment of the situation. This philosophy was in place long before this forum came to be. It is founded on years of reflections and experience working with students and faculty and refining my approach to teaching through practice, writing, conference presentations, courses, etc. Natalie shares my approach and is so concerned about the possibility of implementing it in a forum that she refuses to participate to forum discussions. She is afraid of the negative feedback and of the possibility of forum participants to 'lash out' at her. Both things go against creating an environment propitious to learning.

Rather than force me to do something that goes against my deep rooted principles as well as against my personal asessment of the situation, why not let me teach the way I normally do? Magical things will happen then. One of the basis of my philosophy of teaching is that you do not force students to do something. I believe that a good teacher is able to find what students love to do and then nurture their passion. Only then do we find the courage to open and reveal the deeper reality hidden within us. Forceful action does not work in my estimate. Kindness, nurturing and understanding are much better.

What is your approach to teaching?

Sean Off Topic Yet Again

Alain Briot said:

I don't feel comfortable sharing certain things in a public forum. I have been a teacher for over 15 years and my experience has taught me when to present certain things in public and when not to.

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Hi Alain,

Having spent over half my life in school (at age 33) with 7 of those 20 years in college (I also attended Summer quarter/semester for all but one of those 7 years), I have a fair bit of an academic taste in education and I have never met an instructor who held things back for private. At times remedial things were taken offline, but if another student had spoken up and asked for elaboration on the same issue the topic would have been addressed in a public forum. In this case, the student (the OP) was not requesting remedial information but direction to move their education forwards. Nor have I ever met a student who asked for more info who was afraid to have their issue publically addressed. And I have never seen the one type of person who would not appreciate such (those with genetically limited intellectual ability) ask for help and direction as they are incapable of seeing the need to ask.

In short, I cannot understand reticence to provide direction publically to those who ask for it. Such public discussion allows for others to input ideas both good and bad which can yield results far beyond that a single mentor can provide. The flip side is that a single mentor can provide guidance and direction to those with mild genetically imposed mental limits that a group never could. But the latter target audience is not the type who posts to public forumns.

I should also note that I am not remotely shy and that strongly affects my percieved view of the world. I am at times insecure, physically drained, emotionally drained, or mentally exhausted which do make me quieter at times.

And to see a teaser of ideas and concepts from someone who does write well and then a refusal to share them feels (but may not be) hurtful and a touch selfish. But that is my perception and has nothing to do with where you are coming from.

I can accept that public discussion of such ideas may as yet be beyond your comfort zone, and that is acceptable as no one will ever know it all. But to conquer that fear and move beyond it may be a place to look at who you are and what you wish to become and consider whether you wish to be an educator (speaking freely in public) or a counselor (giving private guidance). Neither is right nor wrong, but educating is a public act.

As to the it is a French thing I call bullshit on that and cannot accept such a lame excuse for personal behavior. That is like saying that hanging people and burning crosses upon their lawns is just what you do if you are from the USA, simply an untrue statement.

Regardless of what I think or feel, you are free to do as you please. Nonetheless, I feel you have been insincere in stating that you would suggest changes as an educator and then saying you are only comfortable giving such as a counselor.

My feelings aside, this is an open forumn and I do not ask you to exceed your comfort boundaries regardless of what others say. But please do not say you have many ideas and then say they are confidential and private.

This is just one persons viewpoint and should be taken as such.

may your day only improve,

Sean

Alain Briot said:

Asher,
What is your approach to teaching?

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Alain,



I would have thought my own philosophy would be self evident: open, relaxed, collegial, sharing experience, learning as well as teaching, deal with the positive first, show my sincerity in my motives. When I am sure I know what I'm talking about, even downright professorial, (the latter, a left over trait from my experience as a Professor). I believe that not addressing the deficits is disingenuous and damaging.
Usually, one can build up credit first and then present any critique and corrections in a supportive way.

Reticence has no place in an open forum. Even shy lovers have to eventually disrobe! Yes, that's essential and there is no way out. But here, it's even not just about that, it's about merely sharing and being open. That's way more important. Without that, the two are not compatible and are of no use to each other!

Respectfully,

Asher

Alain
Though I do not agree with you, I respect your principles, but think that, then, you shouldn't tease and shouldn't post -whatever- if you don't wish to share your teacher's experience and knowledge (that is huge!).
I do understand that you prefer to keep your good comments for your students, but then, once again, then don't come into these threads, it clearly could be understood as a hidden way of advertising for you courses! and this AFAIK is not very fair in a "sharing community" such as OPF. I may be wrong on this point.
As one of the 3 creators of OPF (Asher's the master) I'm so happy to have you and your contribution on board!
I think on the long term, readers and members will recognize you as one of the best value of OPF and those needing to be teached, will naturally go to you!
Show your soul (though I don't believe in God) and you'll be followed!
This will only be done when beginners will read your clever answers to their not always intelligent questions.
You're a master! Stay being it and show how! Don't be too "pushy", you'll get the feed back.

Of course.

To other psoters in this thread:
To established more clarity for other posters, when Alain wrote

I should have twisted my tongue in my mouth 7 times before typing "personally, I see a lot on your web site that I would change" ;-) (it's a French "saying" in case someone wonders).

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this was in regards to "twist its tongue in his mouth 7 times before…" it is a typical French expression meaning, "I better wait and think before writing."
No French exception there!


[EDIT] Alain, this post is absolutely not against you, on the contrary, it is a tentative to have you even more involved in your comments that many of us do need…

Alain called me this morning and we exchanged ideas frankly and agreed a how things will proceed to the benefit of the forum.

Above all, this has been a most important and open discussion. I thank all those who participated. It is a challenge to deal with some subjects, but we did it!

Asher and I talked over the phone and we agreed he would post his views on Joe's site first then I would add mines. So here goes, but first I must mention that I would not have posted these views on a forum normally.

The discrepancy between price per hour of work and print prices is unlike what I do and what I recommend photographers do. I don't recommend charging more for your time than for your prints, as in this instance. I do know that this is a popular approach, but I do not recommend it.

I also see a discrepancy between the hourly cost and the quality of the work. I don't see that the work displayed on this site is worth $300 per hour. Now this may not be Joe's best work, or the web images may not show it to its advantage, but that is the way it comes accross to me when I look at it from the eyes of a potential customer. Eventually, all I have is what is on the web to make up my mind. I also do not quite understand why photographing children is billed at $75 per hour and adults at $300 per hour. What costs less in the process? Why not the opposite? Fact is, your fee shouldn't be based on the subject. It should be based on you and the quality of your work. Why make people feel like photographing their children is less valuable?

On the positive side I think Joe has done his best to create a website that showcases all that he has to offer. But there too there is a discrepancy between offering weddings and car show photographs. I understand both are of people, but I don't recommend offering both on the same site.

Joe says he is very successful. Then the marketing must be very good, and I would expect it to be marketing done in other venues than over the web.

Again, I would not normally present these views on a forum. In my eyes they are better discussed directly with the business owner, over the phone or in person.

Nicolas replied and it makes a new thread on pricing here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1094


I have delineated clearly now where we will look for commercial help:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61

If one's market is the very people in the forum, to prevent an appearance of conflict of interest I have instructed that we become fastidious in not being seen to be self-promoting.

This, I beleive will provide order and clarity and benefit everyone.

Asher