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  #1  
Old January 21st, 2012, 06:22 AM
Mark Hampton Mark Hampton is offline
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Default Photography Invented !

the term photographie was coined by Hércules Florence in 1834 using a negative / positive method !

did he invent it ? did an Englishman then nick it (that wouldn't be like the english would it !) ---


more breaking news as it happens!
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  #2  
Old January 21st, 2012, 08:12 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hampton View Post
the term photographie was coined by Hércules Florence in 1834 using a negative / positive method !

did he invent it ? did an Englishman then nick it (that wouldn't be like the english would it !) ---


more breaking news as it happens!
Mark,

Let's go back further! The camera obscura provided a means by which artists for, (up to, at least), thousands of years were able to draw their chosen subjects outside that box. What the chemical process did is fix that image on some photosensitive surface. Hence the name photo-graphy, since the light, not the artist, did the drawing.

Asher
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  #3  
Old January 21st, 2012, 08:58 AM
Ruben Alfu Ruben Alfu is offline
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"What was, will be again, what has been done, will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun!"

Ecclesiastes 1:9


This should be the epigraph of every photography book
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  #4  
Old January 21st, 2012, 09:06 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Originally Posted by Ruben Alfu View Post
"What was, will be again, what has been done, will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun!"

Ecclesiastes 1:9


This should be the epigraph of every photography book

Ruben,

For human behavior, yes, that might be. However, the possible points of view from which we can observe things at different times, conditions and company is infinite.

Photography provides that discrete and unique perspective and intimacy in a way our brains, alone, cannot visualize. Photography unites the past present and future.

Asher
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  #5  
Old January 21st, 2012, 11:41 AM
Michael Seltzer Michael Seltzer is offline
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"did he invent it ?"

Do you mean the term? Seems likely. Although also possible Herschel may not have heard of Florence's term when he "coined" it in English. Heck, who knows? Someone in India, or maybe Japan, or somewhere unexpected, may have coined the term earlier yet. He or she wouldn't have had to be a photographer, or even live at the time photography was being discovered. I can't remember his name, but a French poet wrote a pretty accurate description of the daguerreotype process 80 years before Daguerre invented it. All it would take is somebody looking at the image cast by a pinhole, and thinking of it as being drawn by the light itself.

If you mean the process, I've kind of given up on labeling one person the inventor. However, sounds like Florence was more or less in sync with Daguerre and Talbot, slightly earlier I guess, but after Bayard and Niépce.

As far as pinholes (the camera obscura), I'd not read anybody suggesting their use by artists as a drawing aid earlier than the early Renaissance. Have you read something about that?
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  #6  
Old January 21st, 2012, 11:44 AM
Michael Seltzer Michael Seltzer is offline
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Hey, it just occurred to me... are you saying that Florence coined the term, or published it for the first time, on this day in 1834?
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  #7  
Old January 21st, 2012, 05:28 PM
Maris Rusis Maris Rusis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hampton View Post
the term photographie was coined by Hércules Florence in 1834 using a negative / positive method !

did he invent it ? did an Englishman then nick it (that wouldn't be like the english would it !) ---


more breaking news as it happens!
The "Photography", "photographier", "fotografie" story involves detective work. Here are some interesting findings:

Apparently a recurrent theory for the origin of the form "photographie" is that it is French and it originated from Antoine Hercule Romuald Florence (Hercule to his friends) in Brazil in 1833! The word was apparently suggested to him (but not published) by Joaquim Correia de Mello, a botanist and pharmacist, who was looking for herbal remedies in Brazil. Hercule Florence is also credited as the first inventor of photography by no less than Helmut Gernsheim in his 3rd edition Origins of Photography, 1982, pp81-2.

Hercule Florence was very isolated in the back-blocks of Brazil and his discoveries were not brought to the attention of the world until 1973. Therefore the old histories do not mention him and the new ones do. That is where conventional wisdom now lies. But, and it is a big but, there is more.

The entire Hercule Florence story was built from Florence's diaries, notes, and samples by Boris Kossoy, a Brazilian journalist, and by the recollections and legends preserved by Florence's descendents. A growing skepticism now clouds the scene. Dates don't match, diary pages have two kinds of ink, the technology seems wrong, and new dates have been annotated onto old pages. Original photographic samples are not available for inspection and additional scholarship continues to cast doubt. A key person, Joaquim Correia de Mello, was only 16 years old at the time and not in Brazil!

The whole thing could be a con job or at least an exercise in Brazilian nationalism run wild. This sort of thing has happened before. Remember during the cold war the Russians insisted that they had invented baseball (they said beizbol) before the Americans. Even in Australia there is support for the idea that Hargraves is the true inventor of flight; the Wright brothers merely adding the minor detail of engine power.

Now my trust in authorities is weakened. The French verb "photographier" supposedly dates from 1834. I can't locate it in any confirmatory French etymological source. And the French are sticklers for etymology and language purity. Maybe someone (anyone?) can cite the original reference? Could it be an emanation from Hercule Florence? The German word "photographie" (or "fotografie" after the regularisation of German spelling) that I took on trust from the famous Dr. Rosamund Moon is also elusive. Its 1838 reference can't be found, at least by me. Perhaps the resources of a major library in the USA or Europe could help. So much to learn!

One thing that does look secure is Sir John Herschel's place in the history of photography. Everything is eye-witnessed, documented, archived, and accessible at least in principle. But even here there is a ruction. An idea is afoot that Herschel is the true inventor of photography in 1819. Not because he could get light to make marks on silver chloride, that had been done before, but because he discovered how to fix the image with sodium thiosulphate (hypo). Without fixing there is no photograph, only the potential of one.

Just for fun here is an old but rather familiar bit of bad handwriting:


Photography - Original Manuscript - Sir John F. W. Herschel.

A facsimile by scanner of the very first time the word "Photography" was written down by the very first man to say it: Sir John F. W. Herschel.

The occasion was at a meeting of the Royal Society at Somerset House in London on Thursday 14 March, 1839. Meetings of the Royal Society were great social occasions where the glitterati of the day could meet famous figures of science and industry. The best part was a lavish banquet set for approximately 8.30 pm but before that lectures and presentations were on the agenda. The last presentation before the feast was "Note on the use of Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation." It is not known how many of the attendees realised that when they heard "Photography" it was for the first time.
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"Photography or the application of the chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation...". Photography, the word, coined and first uttered by Sir John Herschel at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London; 14 March, 1839.
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  #8  
Old January 21st, 2012, 05:55 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Maris,

Lovely essay.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #9  
Old January 21st, 2012, 06:00 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com...ad.php?t=15229

That was the 9th Century.

16th Century Geronimo Cardano ( no not that ' Geronimo!! WiKi is back online!! ) is quoted as saying

" one of the 12 giant minds of history "; he was referring to exactly what I was referring to in my post above.

Visit the exhibition in L.A. Let some light shine through.
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  #10  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 06:40 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maris Rusis View Post
Now my trust in authorities is weakened. The French verb "photographier" supposedly dates from 1834. I can't locate it in any confirmatory French etymological source. And the French are sticklers for etymology and language purity. Maybe someone (anyone?) can cite the original reference? Could it be an emanation from Hercule Florence? The German word "photographie" (or "fotografie" after the regularisation of German spelling) that I took on trust from the famous Dr. Rosamund Moon is also elusive. Its 1838 reference can't be found, at least by me. Perhaps the resources of a major library in the USA or Europe could help. So much to learn!
Hi Maris,

http://www.answers.com/topic/etymology-of-photography seems to paint a balanced picture. There are several people who apparently used/published the term, but it was not until an authority like Hershel used it that the word became popular. So it seems that he didn't 'coin' the word, but he was certainly instrumental in making the word 'photography' popular.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #11  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 09:39 PM
Maris Rusis Maris Rusis is offline
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Thanks Bart. That is a good reference and in the past I've tried to follow it through but with no success.

The Vossische Zeitung of February 25, 1839 was said by Erich Stenger in 1932 to contain an article by Johann von Madler with "fotographie" in it. Professor Stenger is perhaps academically impeccable but any claims of German superiority (in anything) from the 1930's have a whiff of Nationalist propaganda about them. This, at least, in suspicious minds like mine.

If the report is valid then Sir John Herschel is pipped by about 3 weeks. Curiously, subsequent literature references all trace to Stenger's report and no one seems to have checked the existence or accuracy of the article for themselves. Herschel and Madler were astronomers and both were fluent in German. It's plausible that they exchanged the term "photography/fotographie" in their correspondence but I can't find an instance on Herschel's side.

Vossische Zeitung is available online but not as far back as February 1839. Either the oldest material was never digitized, or lost, or destroyed in the war. Annoying! Next time I'm in Berlin I'll chase this lead up.
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"Photography or the application of the chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation...". Photography, the word, coined and first uttered by Sir John Herschel at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London; 14 March, 1839.
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  #12  
Old February 7th, 2012, 10:21 AM
Denbigh Gabbitas Denbigh Gabbitas is offline
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Well, it is not like the French to allow the English to be first at anything. But this is from Le Grand Robert (the Fr equivalent to complete OED).

photographie [fCtCgYafi] n. f.
ÉTYM. 1839, d'après l'angl. photography (1839, Herschel); « partie de la physique qui s'occupe de la lumière », 1835; de photo-, et graphie.

Although I am not entirely sure what the date 1835 refers to.
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