Our perpetual torment

[Doug Kerr]

The current presidential campaign in the US is a torment none of us, of whatever genuine political leaning, deserves.

Newt Gingrich says, "The [Chevrolet] Volt is Obama's car - you can't put a gun rack in it." [Actually you can, so this is just like most campaign proclamations.]

Rick Santorum says, "There can be no such thing as a liberal Christian".

Mitt Romney says, "The Obama administration has fought against religion."

Rick Perry says, . . . oh well, never mind, he has taken a time out.

If we were interviewing for the position of Director of Human Resources for a small telephone company, any of those statements would probably make us thank the candidate for his time, and tell him that we'll be in touch.

One is tempted to think that, "oh, well, it will all be over in November".

But the horrifying truth revealed by the current situation is that we are now in a perpetual presidential campaign, a series of five- or 6-year events that occur every four years.

We are as perpetually doomed as Prometheus, but it is not a noble eagle that gnaws forever at our liver.

Ah, well, soon we will have breakfast and I will feel better.

Best regards,

Doug

[Cem_Usakligil]

Speaking of Rick Santorum, he made the following proclamations recently about the Netherlands:

“In the Netherlands, people wear different bracelets if they are elderly. And the bracelet is: ‘Do not euthanize me.’ Because they have voluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands but half of the people who are euthanized — ten percent of all deaths in the Netherlands — half of those people are enthanized involuntarily at hospitals because they are older and sick. And so elderly people in the Netherlands don’t go to the hospital. They go to another country, because they are afraid, because of budget purposes, they will not come out of that hospital if they go in there with sickness.”

See the Washington Post article about this. Needless to say, his speech has ruffled quite a lot of feathers over here as none of it is true.

[Tracy Lebenzon]

One can only conclude that no one really thinks the GOP will beat O and this group of clowns are there for little else but to kick the ideological can down the road….for the money it brings to keep the lights on at the GOP.

[Jim Galli]

Doug, the Republicans are looking for a messiah, and Obama......may well be Him.

[Mark Hampton]

i think that everyone should get a vote - in the world that is. i think its the only way forward for all elections tbh.

also the same should apply to large corporations..

infact everything should really be run on a mutual basis...

just a thought.

cheers

[Jerome Marot]

Originally Posted by Doug Kerr

The current presidential campaign in the US is a torment none of us, of whatever genuine political leaning, deserves.

The real reason to worry is that it is not really better in other countries. The leaders of a number of countries of the western world will stand for election in 2012, and it is the same story everywhere. Bad times for genuine democracy, I would say.

[Bob Rogers]

Sweet Home Alabama. Where the skies are so blue.

On the one hand we have politicians who would save us from ourselves.
On the other we have politicians who would save us from others.

Now Watergate does not bother me. Does your conscious bother you?

In three years M1 has increased by over 30% while our economy flounders. Gasoline and the stock market are up not for economic reasons, but because we continue to devalue the currency.

Now Muscle Shoals has got the Swampers.... they pick me up when I'm feeling blue.

Pentuplets anyone?

[Asher Kelman]

More disconcerting, my good friend, is the lack of civil discourse. The most recent outbursts by Rush Limbo, calling a law student advocate a slut and a prostitute because she wants to present the case for birth control being a health issue. Actually, she was indignant that a fellow student with ovarian ovarian cysts to get birth control pills coverage. They are in in a Catholic University. Birth control clashes with Church doctrine and therefore school policy.

Now I respect the right of Rush Limbo, to feel that the US government shouldn't force institutions to provide such coverage. Actually, Obama acceded to that and so only insurance companies have to cover that if folk in their good conscience wish to make that choice. The point is that denigrating and opponent personally in such vile terms is reminiscent of the societies we despise. Unless there is free discourse, there is no free society. I'm not taking any stand on contraception, that's not the point, it's the realization that we have bullies and louts in the public forum and that's sad.

So we've more problems than just representation of districts. It's representation of each other that must come first. Without that, we are doomed to become crude apemen, grabbing whatever we've the power to seize.

Asher

[Jim Galli]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

More disconcerting, my good friend, is the lack of civil discourse. The most recent outbursts by Rush Limbo, calling a law student advocate a slut and a prostitute because she wants to present the case for birth control being a health issue. Actually, she was indignant that a fellow student with ovarian ovarian cysts to get birth control pills coverage. They are in in a Catholic University. Birth control clashes with Church doctrine and therefore school policy.

Now I respect the right of Rush Limbo, to feel that the US government shouldn't force institutions to provide such coverage. Actually, Obama acceded to that and so only insurance companies have to cover that if folk in their good conscience wish to make that choice. The point is that denigrating and opponent personally in such vile terms is reminiscent of the societies we despise. Unless there is free discourse, there is no free society. I'm not taking any stand on contraception, that's not the point, it's the realization that we have bullies and louts in the public forum and that's sad.

So we've more problems than just representation of districts. It's representation of each other that must come first. Without that, we are doomed to become crude apemen, grabbing whatever we've the power to seize.

Asher

You call it birth control. We call it murder.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Jim Galli

You call it birth control. We call it murder.

Hi Jim,

With all due respect, how can the prevention to even get pregnant be construed to be murder?

Cheers,
Bart

[Jerome Marot]

I don't think that this forum is the place to discuss these theories... Anyway: some people believe that God or some god wants each sexual relation to bear fruits and contraception would go against that. Following that line of thought, he children which would be conceived are then denied their right of living, which is assimilated to murdering them.

I am just describing what I understood from these theories, not endorsing them.

[Cem_Usakligil]

Originally Posted by Jerome Marot

I don't think that this forum is the place to discuss these theories....

I have been hammering on this for the past 5+ years. It is the major point of respectful disagreement I've had with the OPF management. Luckily, the political or religious debates did not yet really get out of control here, thanks to the civility of our members. But we have been in a tight situation occasionally. I understand the need to address political and religious issues within the context of photography and I welcome those discussions BTW.

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Jim Galli

You call it birth control. We call it murder.

Jim,

I can consider the possible logical path of construing destruction of a viable fetus murder. That might make sense, as, I admit, it seems to have much in common with infanticide. So one could, (if one is so driven by logic or conscience), argue that position. I have not expressed my own opinion on termination of pregnancy here. Besides, this law student was not advocating that. Here, it was her opinion that a student, (with the painful condition of multiple ovarian cysts), should have birth control pills. Seems reasonable to me. Also in that particular case, (not even involving contraception), you might perhaps, join in support her claim. However, she also advocates providing that for any other student covered in the university health plan. Again, I've not expressed an opinion either way, just that she should be allowed to speak and then the argument against that stream of thought can be made by those who find that wrong.

In fact, it's not important what the argument was, she should be heard, even if she's foolish. After all, another university could say that being a Baptist, Muslim or a Jew is not allowed in their private university or that women on scholarship could not spend their living expense money on a crucifix or else it would be state sponsoring of religion.

But I son't want to argue for the content of her speech, although we could and that would be a big mistake in this forum. Rather, I think that calling her a slut for advocating a position is unbecoming in a civil society. That's all I intended to posit.

Asher

[Jim Galli]

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

Hi Jim,

With all due respect, how can the prevention to even get pregnant be cronstrued to be murder?

Cheers,
Bart

Most of what is causing the problem with folks of conscience is post conception. Any post conception. The gov't should NOT be in that business..EVER!

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Jim Galli

Most of what is causing the problem with folks of conscience is post conception. Any post conception. The gov't should NOT be in that business..EVER!

Jim,

That's true. However, we need a civil discourse to get to a common understanding for folk who have different cultural traditions and beliefs. It can't be that my bible does not allow you yours.

I only talk about freedom of speech, not the content.

One of the principal purposes of art is to have seers, people who are visionaries, who can peer through the chaos and tell folk about what lies ahead and what paths there are to choose from. If we suppress speech, then we lose all new ideas that don't conform.

It's just the vulgarity of the radio show host who asks the law student to make a video of her having sex with her boyfriend and put it on the internet for him to enjoy, [after all she's a slut]! This young woman is an honest decent citizen and must not be bullied and mocked. We can be rational and that's what's needed, discourse that are based on values and logic not crude bully-pulpits.

Asher

[Jim Galli]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Jim,

That's true. However, we need a civil discourse to get to a common understanding for folk who have different cultural traditions and beliefs. It can't be that my bible does not allow you yours.

I only talk about freedom of speech, not the content.

Asher

Funny that I have to respect everybody else's tradition but no one has to respect the Word of God. I'll bow out of this discussion. But not until I say again that snuffing out unborn life is in fact murder. It's no different than O. T. "passing the children through the fire" that was the cause of God's judgement then. Only the technology has changed. And of course the terminology that makes it seem "good" ie. a woman's choice to murder her child. This is evil.

[Jerome Marot]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

It's just the vulgarity of the radio show host who asks the law student to make a video of her having sex with her boyfriend and put it on the internet for him to enjoy, [after all she's a slut]!

For the benefit of non-US members who, like me, had not heard about that story or the radio talk host Rush Limbaugh, news coverage can be found here and here.

Meanwhile, in France where another election campaign is running, a minister of state is under fire for racist comments about halal food: here (in English). Sad times for democracy.

Meanwhile (again) the financial bubble is about 50 times the value of all goods and services tradable on this planet, the largest democracy on the same planet is using drones to kill their own citizens, oil is running out and we are expecting a hot summer:



What camera do you want to use to photography the end of the world?

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil

I have been hammering on this for the past 5+ years. It is the major point of respectful disagreement I've had with the OPF management. Luckily, the political or religious debates did not yet really get out of control here, thanks to the civility of our members. But we have been in a tight situation occasionally. I understand the need to address political and religious issues within the context of photography and I welcome those discussions BTW.

Cem,

You are right that this is dangerous to allow in a photography forum. However, I hope that by allowing this safety valve, we are not above the human condition and merely recording things that are and not ever saying what should be. I monitor this carefully. At this time, the USA is going through a dangerous time. To become President, there's no qualifying exam, no test of knowledge of even the capitals of Europe or the history of a country as great as Turkey, Portugal or spain. There's no need to know anything of logic, social order, or biology, only being popular and famous and having the wit to make an opponent seem incompetent.

So Doug's entrance into this dangerous territory of debate is of value, not only to those of us in the USA, but also those at the other ends of strategic thinking and economic fortune.

So if we monitor it, we can be OK.

BTW, we only have such a discussion about once a year.

If it gets out of hand, let me know and I'll close it. As long as folk are civil as they are now, we can allow it without harm.

Asher

[Helene Anderson]

Originally Posted by Jerome Marot

Meanwhile, in France where another election campaign is running, a minister of state is under fire for racist comments about halal food: here (in English). Sad times for democracy.

Ah, he is not the only one . . . . . . alas. I remember five years ago in the last election me and others, foreigners but European, were a bit worried about which way France might go.

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Cem,

You are right that this is dangerous to allow in a photography forum. However, I hope that by allowing this safety valve, we are not above the human condition and merely recording things that are and not ever saying what should be.

I think if discussed in an adult manner . . . .er, a sensible manner rather it is valid. Since ouf, years ago I have been interested in the world around me through the photography, because of the photography. There are photographers around the world that report all sorts of events so that photographers might want to discuss such events is reasonable.

[fahim mohammed]

I shall hold my peace...

Except to say that Asher mistyped: his words should read Baptist, Muslim or a Jew and not...

' Baptist Muslim or a Jew '. This would, I am sure let all civility fly out the door..from three corners at least.

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by fahim mohammed

I shall hold my peace...

Except to say that Asher mistyped: his words should read Baptist, Muslim or a Jew and not...

' Baptist Muslim or a Jew '. This would, I am sure let all civility fly out the door..from three corners at least.

Good thing you have a sense of humor! Neither Muslims nor Jews are short of access to heaven and for sure don't seek my adjective, "baptist" and the latter have far easier flock to tender.

Asher

[Tom dinning]

Wow! I'm impressed.
Asher did say to have a look around the posts and make comments where had the desire but I didn't think I'd run into a discourse on presedential elections and religion.
Still, being an Aussie and an aetheist I did have a good laugh; not at you, more along the lines of 'at least thats 2 things I don't have the think about nor have an opinion.'

Don't get me wrong, guys. I think the American Way and religion are both wonderful doctrines. They are great money spinners, full of strange beliefs that often defy explanation and keep a great deal of people occupied where they might otherwise get into mischief. And I do like to drop in from time to time and listen to the latest in dogma and doctrine. It beats me though, how people can read so much into a couple of documents like the Constitution and the Bible.
Anyway, carry on. Don't let me interupt. You never know, I might learn something. Although I do notice that what has been said so far is very close to what was said at the last US election and and probably the last Aussie election as well. They are a breed unto themselves, those pollies. As for the religion arguement, that's been going on for a while now. Hasn't anyone come up with a resolution, consensus or compromise yet. After all, we are all here for the same reason, are we not? Or did I miss something on the way from the womb to the grave?
Cheers
Tom

[Doug Kerr]

Greetings,

You know, I have a muslin background.

Best regards,

Doug

[Cem_Usakligil]

Originally Posted by Doug Kerr

Greetings,

You know, I have a muslin background.

Best regards,

Doug

Don't mention it to TSA if you want to catch a plane.

[Tom dinning]

Originally Posted by Doug Kerr

Greetings,

You know, I have a muslin background.

Best regards,

Doug

Is that kosher, or do I have my ethnicity confused? My background is seamless and white but I'm willing to shine light on any subject, hopefully not casting any dark shadows over sensitive areas.