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  #1  
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:47 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Default New SilkyPix version Developer Studio3.0

The SILKYPIX Developer Studio3.0 English version which became the most recent version of "SILKYPIX Developer Studio" on November 06, 2006.

Why the developers cannot hire a guy who can translate to simple English is amazing to me!

Read the following:

SILKYPIX Developer Studio 3.0 has "improved a developing engine and investigated a high picture more. As a result, SILKYPIX obtained more gradation of high quality and a better picture. Furthermore, it supported honeycomb CCD of FUJIFILM FinePix S2Pro and S3Pro.
A dynamic range extension compresses information of a highlight and displays it. As for this, the digital camera was weak in reproduction of a highlight conventionally. It overcomes the weak point. In addition, you can register favorite setting and setting to use well by "a taste" function."


http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/campaign/1106ds3/
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  #2  
Old November 8th, 2006, 05:51 PM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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I really like it, I spent a few hours playing last night and given the english translation issues, the upsampling algorithm is quite something (try 200% enlargement and compare ouput to CS2 techniques), the highlight controller (DR compression) works very well, the sharpening algorithms are very clean and halo free, CA removal is consistent, while the speed leaves most other RCs at the starting gate.
The downside is that it doesn't support printer ICC output, it has strange terminology and minimal image organising features.
BTW, It has free text comment box for each image where you can write notes. Nice touch! Oh and you can step back through your edits with undo.
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  #3  
Old November 8th, 2006, 06:31 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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John,

So great you have this experience. What color space does it work in? Is it the camera color space or something else. Also, at the end of processing can one move to any color space one wants? for example, Joe Holmes' color spaces

How intuitive is it and is the English manual understandable?

Asher
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  #4  
Old November 9th, 2006, 02:53 AM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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It has two colourspaces, sRGB and AdobeRGB with the ability to tag the file or not.

The manual also states that gamma has changed to 1.15 from 1.35 for this version, this raises the brightness slightly, especially in shadow areas.

If one looks inside the program folder, the two icc files are visible, i've tried adding others, but they are not recognised bu the app. A little bit of reverse engineering is needed to understand why. Maybe a job for a rainy day.

Its not very intuitive, but a little time spent revising the "tastes" (presets) to something more familiar would improve it.

I do recommend that people try upsizing the output, its very impressive indeed. I took a 1Ds file and upsized at 200% and compared it against the recognised CS2 method of bicubic smooth over size (220%) and bicubic sharper reduce (200%). Silkypix had neglible false outlines and much lower level of artifacts, it was also significantly smoother in colour graduation and less blocky. This is probably due to the demosaicing algorithm employed.

I'll try and publish some images later to give an example.

(Asher, you might want to move this thread as i'm digressing a little)
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  #5  
Old November 9th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill
It has two colourspaces, sRGB and AdobeRGB with the ability to tag the file or not.

The manual also states that gamma has changed to 1.15 from 1.35 for this version, this raises the brightness slightly, especially in shadow areas.

If one looks inside the program folder, the two icc files are visible, i've tried adding others, but they are not recognised bu the app. A little bit of reverse engineering is needed to understand why. Maybe a job for a rainy day.

Its not very intuitive, but a little time spent revising the "tastes" (presets) to something more familiar would improve it..............

I'll try and publish some images later to give an example.

(Asher, you might want to move this thread as i'm digressing a little)
John,

Thanks for the generous supply of info! It seems to me that one should have the option of using a larger space within. Check that the two options for color spaces are not merely output color spaces. Because sometimes the RAW translator is in either the camera space or in its own huge Pro RGB-like color space (as it seems Aperture uses, although i'm checking).

Asher
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  #6  
Old November 9th, 2006, 12:24 PM
Marian Howell Marian Howell is offline
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is there a demo version of it? i've been to the website link above and i don't see it mentioned but maybe i'm missing something...?
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  #7  
Old November 9th, 2006, 01:33 PM
Herman Teeuwen Herman Teeuwen is offline
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Asher,

> Because sometimes the RAW translator is in either the camera space or in its own huge Pro RGB-like color space (as it seems Aperture uses, although i'm checking).

I really doubt that any RC works/processes in a camera space. Camera spaces are input spaces. They are device-dependent and they generally do not meet the requirements for working spaces that are:
- (More or less) perceptually uniform
- Gray balanced

In the thread on J. Holmes, you mention C1, RawShooter and Raw Developer as RC's that work in camera spaces.

I'm pretty sure that RawShooter doesn't. IMO it work comparable to Bibble. You can choose from several working spaces and the histogram reflects the current working space.

I don't know about Capture One, but I suspect that it uses it's own internal working space, similar to ACR/Lightroom and LightZone.

I'm not on a Mac, so I don't have a clue about Raw Developer.

The 2 options sRGB/aRGB in Silkypix are its working spaces and at the same time output spaces IMHO.

The camera spaces (whether ICC based camera profiles as in Capture One, or "custom" profiles as in ACR) are there to map/convert raw data into device-independent working spaces.

Herman
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  #8  
Old November 9th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Herman,

My questioning came from a chat about this with Joe Holmes several days ago. Any way if there's a choice, I'd prefer the largest color space.

Joe says a lot of RAW programs do indeed work in the Cameras chosen native color space!

Asher
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  #9  
Old November 9th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Herman Teeuwen Herman Teeuwen is offline
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> Any way if there's a choice, I'd prefer the largest color space.

So do I (with 16-bit data). IMO sRGB/aRGB is a major drawback in Silkypix.

> Joe says a lot of RAW programs do indeed work in the Cameras chosen native color space!

What do you mean with "Cameras chosen native color space"? The in-camera selection of e.g. sRGB or aRGB (= working spaces) ?
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  #10  
Old November 9th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Teeuwen
> Any way if there's a choice, I'd prefer the largest color space.

So do I (with 16-bit data). IMO sRGB/aRGB is a major drawback in Silkypix.

> Joe says a lot of RAW programs do indeed work in the Cameras chosen native color space!

What do you mean with "Cameras chosen native color space"? The in-camera selection of e.g. sRGB or aRGB (= working spaces) ?
Herman, the space you choose in a digital camera AFAIK applies to the output in jpg. I don't think the RAW is actually in any such space. If you could see it, it would be a dark green-black mess!

You are seeing it during RAW processing translated through the RAW programs adjustments (plus the profile for that camera) and then mapped to the color space of your monitor! All the while it is in the color space of the camera. That's what I understand. It does not make sense to have it in SRGB during processing but I guess it's totally possible!!

Asher
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  #11  
Old November 9th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Herman Teeuwen Herman Teeuwen is offline
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> Herman, the space you choose in a digital camera AFAIK applies to the output in jpg. I don't think the RAW is actually in any such space.

No it isn't, you are correct. I was just trying to rule out any misconception in terminology.

> All the while it is in the color space of the camera. That's what I understand.

Afaik, every raw converter that I know of transform to some working space using a camera profile that describes the color behavior of a specific camera. The image data in the raw converter is not actually in the camera space. Image processing in the raw converter is done in a device-independent working space.

Herman
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  #12  
Old November 9th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marian Howell
is there a demo version of it? i've been to the website link above and i don't see it mentioned but maybe i'm missing something...?
Unless something has changed from the last version, simply download it, install it, and run. It will run as a demo for a period of time.

My general opinion is that the current Lightroom Beta is faster and has bettter IQ (but less convenient due to the idiotic forcing of users to use the "Library" rather than letting us work and convert RAW files). While Silkypix has more exciting color.

I have a shot with some severe chromatic abberations* (actually dozens as the sun set, but only two frames have the light I wanted) in the corners and I have tried half a dozen RAW converters and Lightroom has yielded the least CA. Silkypix the best color straight out of the RAW converter. But even with the CA corrections in Silkypix 3.0 Beta it would take multiple conversions with different CA corrections as the 4 corners are at 3 different focal distances with high contrast areas at each focal distance. Even the slow but often excellent DxO failed in a single pass. I have yet to try a multiple pass conversion and painting together.

enjoy,

Sean

* I bought the Canon EF-S kit lens with my camera to have for my rare wide angle shots. The lens is a nightmare optically and in general it is unpleasant to shoot with. I cannot recommend it to anyone.
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  #13  
Old November 9th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Marian Howell Marian Howell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean DeMerchant
Unless something has changed from the last version, simply download it, install it, and run. It will run as a demo for a period of time.
thanks Sean for letting me know that. i'm curious to try SilkyPix as i have heard lots of good things about the color.
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  #14  
Old November 9th, 2006, 04:28 PM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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Sean, are you joking when you say lightroom is faster?
I'm running a dual core, 2Gb ram PC and sata drives and in no way is LR faster. I've just put a hands on tutorial demo on lightroom for talk at my camera club and LR is grinding to a halt within half an hour. Don't get me wrong, I realy like LR, but no way is faster.

On the IQ front, thats down to personal taste.

As for CA, I had quite a few venice images shot with the EF-S 17-85 (at 17mm) and silkpix removed CA without a problem, in fact it was consistent with the findings across numerous frames. Please send me a copy of the CA problem, i'd love a challenge!

On the colouspace debate, I just view them as boundaries on gamnut. Perhaps i'm oversimplifing it, but monitors and printers wont actually show some of these wide gamuts, so aren't we working perceptionally with colours that are visually being forced into the limited rendering intents of such output devices?
I equally find it difficult to visualise an image which someone puts on the web (in sRGB) and says its a result of a wider colourspace. The wider colouspace may have got you there, but the final output is surely compressed and cant truly represent the wide gamut.
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  #15  
Old November 9th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marian Howell
thanks Sean for letting me know that. i'm curious to try SilkyPix as i have heard lots of good things about the color.
You are welcome Marian. The rich, warm, and silky colors <silly grin> is what Silkypix does best. Though I should try the latest version on another problem image I have.

The "dyanamic range expansion" is an interesting feature for highlight recovery.

The basic version may also be totally free still. I have not checked and may try it for when I just want a color variant. Until I find out what Lightroom will cost I am not picking up yet another RAW converter unless I can find one that handles all my problem images (I have two first tier problem images that fail in most RAW converters right now).

enjoy,

Sean
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  #16  
Old November 10th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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In order to keep this thread on topic, the wonderful and important ongoing discussion on the choice of color space and the challenge to get peripheral gamut colors rendered optimally, is now found in it's own thread in the color Management Forum"

The Color Space Conundrum or "Preserving fine tones in hues you can't even see!"

http://www.openphotographyforums.com...3618#post13618



Here, however, we'll still explore Silkypix which offers rewards in especially great color right out of the conversion.

Asher
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  #17  
Old November 10th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill
Sean, are you joking when you say lightroom is faster?
That was a subjective observation rather than an objective one. I have run another test and indeed Silkypix is objectively faster at the conversion by 50-200% or so. But ALR simply puts the conversion into background threads.

In general practice I do not pay much attention to how long a RAW conversion takes objectively. I do pay objective attention to how long it takes to display adjustments in a preview as that affects the subjective experience. Properly prioritized background threads are a non-issue. In the end, all I really care about is the image and what get me there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill

On the IQ front, thats down to personal taste.
Actually, my comment on IQ was in reference to measurable CA in the RGB output which is quantifiable and not a matter of taste (unless one likes CA, sharpening halos, ... ;o). There are other elements of IQ that are highly subjective like noise rendition and color.

My current problem image has shown me some interesting results. I get the best shadow detail from DxO while getting absolutely no color detail in the shadows at the same time. Other converters tend to sacrifice shadow detail for color detail in the shadows excepting ACR which fails to do either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill

As for CA, I had quite a few venice images shot with the EF-S 17-85 (at 17mm) and silkpix removed CA without a problem, in fact it was consistent with the findings across numerous frames. Please send me a copy of the CA problem, i'd love a challenge!
I spawned a new thread for this one:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com...3622#post13622

The RAW file is there plus some text off topic to this thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill

On the colouspace debate, I just view them as boundaries on gamnut. Perhaps i'm oversimplifing it, but monitors and printers wont actually show some of these wide gamuts, so aren't we working perceptionally with colours that are visually being forced into the limited rendering intents of such output devices?
Actually conversion to a huge space leaves room for things like highlight recovery or selective desaturation that may not be doable to your artistic taste in the RAW converter.

enjoy,

Sean
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  #18  
Old November 10th, 2006, 05:27 PM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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Point taken Sean, no offense meant )
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Old November 10th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill
Point taken Sean, no offense meant
No worries John. I took no offense. ) I had not even looked at RAW conversion speed objectively for any converter that did it in a background thread in ages. Now I do watch foreground conversion speed objectively, but it modifies the subjective experience.

As to calling me on things, please feel free. Even when I feel offended it does not last and with my at times harsh rhetoric I cannot afford the bad karma of taking things badly.

And staying on topic there are several things I like about Silkypix that stand out:
  • Vibrant colors.
  • When an option is highlighted from a drop down list it is automatically previewed. This is a very nice feature which I wish worked for the sliders too (albeit, I am still running the beta and will test the real one when it expires.
  • The control palettes can mostly be shifted to a second display.
enjoy,

Sean
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  #20  
Old November 11th, 2006, 05:49 AM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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Keeping on the Silkypix theme, their customer support is a bit weak. I installed the new version on Monday after ordering the upgrade and the expiry from the beta continued into the release. I now have 4 days left before the app expires and i've emailed them 6 times with no response.
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