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  #1  
Old November 29th, 2013, 03:44 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Default The importance of tone mapping / HDR

I was just chatting with Bart and he's raised an important point. I have posted a WWII bunker picture yesterday and Bart thought that it was tone mapped "properly" (i.e. effective and unobtrusive, doesn't look like the usual grungy HDR pictures). I agreed, of course, since this was the result of a conscious effort on my part. He's then suggested that I post the unprocessed mid-exposure frame along with the processed picture to demonstrate how much difference it can make taking HDR bracketed pictures and then doing the tone mapping properly. I am glad to oblige.

This first is the 0V exposure bracket (I took 5, from -2EV to 2EV). SOOC, i.e. the jpg generated by the camera using the standard settings.





And this is the end result of HDR tone mapping, using SNS-HDR Pro followed by a touch of contrast correction in Nik ColorEfex4 and lens distortion correction in LR (the jpg is already corrected by the camera but not the raw).





What are your thoughts about this? Do you hate HDR/tone mapping as many photographers seem to do? If so, why? Would you consider my end result as over-cooked?
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  #2  
Old November 29th, 2013, 03:52 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is online now
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The results look quite natural to me, but I am not sure that they are very different to what your camera can do from a single picture.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:01 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The results look quite natural to me, but I am not sure that they are very different to what your camera can do from a single picture.
Excellent point Jerome. My D800 would certainly be able to cover the -1EV, 0EV, 1EV range in one single picture. -2/+2 would be pushing it though. In this case, the camera being the Nex-6, even the -1/+1 range in one picture scenario is unlikely. I have not processed the 0EV jpg posted here. You can try to raise the shadows and pull the highlights and see whether it will deliver similar end results or not. But I can tell you already tell you that it won't in this case. One can go very far and achieve acceptable results for posting on web. But the details in the darks/lights are lost and would be visible in a large print.

On another note, if one would choose to use a single exposure, one would still need to do some tone mapping to bring out the details and to add some micro contrast for textures. The fact remains that some post processing is needed in any case.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:28 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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There are only a few HDR exponents I can relate to, Cem. You're one of them. Overcooking is a bit of a fad so it's nice to see something done with the intention of improving the picture quality in terms of visual response and not just bling.
I treat HDR as a musician would treat an accordion. It's OK to know how to play it but it's in good taste to choose not to.
My dark side prefers the first shot. I can see too much in the second for my mind to complete the picture as I want to see it.
You're right about the post processing but the great thing is we all have our own particular preferences. If someone chooses to hide the detail or keep it hidden in the shadows, this can be an expression of something the photographer wishes to say.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:35 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
There are only a few HDR exponents I can relate to, Cem. You're one of them. Overcooking is a bit of a fad so it's nice to see something done with the intention of improving the picture quality in terms of visual response and not just bling.
I treat HDR as a musician would treat an accordion. It's OK to know how to play it but it's in good taste to choose not to.
My dark side prefers the first shot. I can see too much in the second for my mind to complete the picture as I want to see it.
You're right about the post processing but the great thing is we all have our own particular preferences. If someone chooses to hide the detail or keep it hidden in the shadows, this can be an expression of something the photographer wishes to say.
You know I grok what you're saying here Tom and agree with all of it. HDR is a tool, not the goal. But one should know how to use his/her tools properly. In this case, subtlety is the key.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 05:03 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
...My dark side prefers the first shot. I can see too much in the second for my mind to complete the picture as I want to see it. ..
Here is for your dark side Tom. The first shot converted into B&W.





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Old November 29th, 2013, 05:14 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Cem,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
And this is the end result of HDR tone mapping, using SNS-HDR Pro followed by a touch of contrast correction in Nik ColorEfex4 and lens distortion correction in LR (the jpg is already corrected by the camera but not the raw).


What are your thoughts about this? Do you hate HDR/tone mapping as many photographers seem to do? If so, why? Would you consider my end result as over-cooked?
I am not tempted to say of this result, "Wow! You've made that look almost like a photograph."

So no, I don't think it is "overcooked".

Best regards,

Doug
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Old November 29th, 2013, 07:59 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The results look quite natural to me, but I am not sure that they are very different to what your camera can do from a single picture.
Hi Jerome,

While I agree that a single image goes a long way, things will start falling apart at the detail level (especially in the photon starved shadow regions). The tonemapping can require quite extreme brightness adjustments at that detail level, and shooting multiple exposures will provide more latitude for adjustment.

Cheers,
Bart
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:17 AM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Cem, I think your image looks fine. I think many people don't do tone-mapping correctly and simply press the auto button and take what ever the program spits out. They often end up with images that have buildings that are glowing with horrendous huge halos and skies that have grey junk all through them.
I feel they are pushed too far when there is no shadow left at all and that makes them feel very flat, which can also be appealing to some as it can make some images look more like illustrations than photographs.
In your image, although we have a lot more detail in the dark areas, there are still dark areas, so although you have brought back detail, you have not lost the depth. You also do not have any halos that make things look radioactive. :-D
Do I hate hdr/tonemapping? When well-done and with the appropriate photo, I think it is fine - it's the end result that matters and not how you got there. I would say though, that not all photos need all details to be shown as they can more interesting with less detail; Others come alive with it. Again, it all depends on the end result.
:-)
Maggie
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:51 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
There are only a few HDR exponents I can relate to, Cem. You're one of them. Overcooking is a bit of a fad so it's nice to see something done with the intention of improving the picture quality in terms of visual response and not just bling.
Hi Tom,

I agree, tonemapping of High Dynamic Range Images (HDRI) is something that's unfortunately often overcooked. I also prefer the more gentle treatment that Cem uses.

Quote:
I treat HDR as a musician would treat an accordion. It's OK to know how to play it but it's in good taste to choose not to.
That would depend on the situation. In an symphonic orchestra, I would also not immediately add an accordion, but as an instrument in an ensemble to accompany Tango dancers, (a variation of) it would be sorely missed. There's a time and place for (almost) everything.

Quote:
My dark side prefers the first shot. I can see too much in the second for my mind to complete the picture as I want to see it.
It's interesting how human vision works. When confronted with multiple renditions, one can express a preference. However, I'm pretty sure you could also have lived with the tonemapped version, as is. It has a good composition, an intriguing scene, and lots to explore before the curiosity is satisfied.

Quote:
You're right about the post processing but the great thing is we all have our own particular preferences. If someone chooses to hide the detail or keep it hidden in the shadows, this can be an expression of something the photographer wishes to say.
Another aspect of liking certain postprocessing styles is caused by pre-conditioning, culture, or training/education. As an example of how conditioned one can become when viewing images with certain expectations, were some of the reactions I read on another photography forum when someone posted the following 'manually tonemapped' HDR image:


Especially the comments about noise in the shadows and the apparent fill-light used were amusing ... ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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  #11  
Old November 29th, 2013, 04:26 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
...Especially the comments about noise in the shadows and the apparent fill-light used were amusing ...
You've gotta be kidding me Bart! Really? Where is that discussion, I have to read it, lol.
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  #12  
Old November 29th, 2013, 04:28 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hi, Cem,



I am not tempted to say of this result, "Wow! You've made that look almost like a photograph."

So no, I don't think it is "overcooked".

Best regards,

Doug
Thanks Doug. I'm glad that I don't take photographs.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:30 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie Terlecki View Post
Cem, I think your image looks fine. I think many people don't do tone-mapping correctly and simply press the auto button and take what ever the program spits out. They often end up with images that have buildings that are glowing with horrendous huge halos and skies that have grey junk all through them.
I feel they are pushed too far when there is no shadow left at all and that makes them feel very flat, which can also be appealing to some as it can make some images look more like illustrations than photographs.
In your image, although we have a lot more detail in the dark areas, there are still dark areas, so although you have brought back detail, you have not lost the depth. You also do not have any halos that make things look radioactive. :-D
Do I hate hdr/tonemapping? When well-done and with the appropriate photo, I think it is fine - it's the end result that matters and not how you got there. I would say though, that not all photos need all details to be shown as they can more interesting with less detail; Others come alive with it. Again, it all depends on the end result.
:-)
Maggie
Thanks a lot for your well formulated post Maggie. Agreed. :)
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:30 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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The only accordion player who has my blessing is Madam Lulu's accompanist. She wouldn't need to play, though.

You have struck a chord with Norman, Bart. Childhood memories are flooding back. Such humour, such 'life'. Not one of the greats but certainly an expert on the human condition.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 06:19 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post


Another aspect of liking certain postprocessing styles is caused by pre-conditioning, culture, or training/education. As an example of how conditioned one can become when viewing images with certain expectations, were some of the reactions I read on another photography forum when someone posted the following 'manually tonemapped' HDR image:


Especially the comments about noise in the shadows and the apparent fill-light used were amusing ... ;)

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,

I think that was made with a multistep camera back, which explains how one can obtain a phenomenal result even with the front element of a lantern projection lens. The secret here for all the exquisite extra detail and dynamic range is in the artful use of a precise film back! It defies logic on first consideration, but it seems to work! There was no digital sensor invented yet, but it was done with monochrome film and not only multistep, but also red, green and blue filters, used in succession, for each of 32 micro steps in each shift direction. The shift mechanism was a stage from a machine tool assembly with manual stepping in 6 axes.

There was one photography assistant for documenting and saving the sheet film for each shot in that axis.

The entire process took 2 shifts of 16 workers and one supervisor to achieve, process and align all of the negatives.

Asher
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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:58 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I think that was made with a multistep camera back, which explains how one can obtain a phenomenal result even with the front element of a lantern projection lens. The secret here for all the exquisite extra detail and dynamic range is in the artful use of a precise film back! It defies logic on first consideration, but it seems to work! There was no digital sensor invented yet, but it was done with monochrome film and not only multistep, but also red, green and blue filters, used in succession, for each of 32 micro steps in each shift direction. The shift mechanism was a stage from a machine tool assembly with manual stepping in 6 axes.

There was one photography assistant for documenting and saving the sheet film for each shot in that axis.

The entire process took 2 shifts of 16 workers and one supervisor to achieve, process and align all of the negatives.
It looks a little overcooked, especially in the brown tones.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old November 29th, 2013, 11:03 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Hi Cem,

Thanks for allowing me to experiment with your HDR toned photograph. I felt that there was not enough light at the opening to this drab interior to justify the distribution of light relative to the fairly conservatively opening.

So this means looking at how light might reflect from surfaces behind us that we know nothing about or even have their own lights. Still, I felt that there should be a sense that, once inside the dark space, it should seem that all the light derives from the entrance.



Cem Usakligil: HDR tone mapped

Original


It's quite a thing for me to touch a picture made by someone I respect and admire so. Still, I've attempted to light the entrance to justify the interior revelation of structure and also to attempt to provide roll off on the edges between dark and light. For the latter, one might have to start with a less compressed image.




Cem Usakligil: HDR tone mapped,

Edited ADK with permission


So this is my first attempt and I do hope it adds something to the discussion.

Asher
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Old November 29th, 2013, 11:30 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Spoiler alert Asher, the main light is from the entrance indeed but it is behind my back. :)
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Old November 29th, 2013, 11:39 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
Spoiler alert Asher, the main light is from the entrance indeed but it is behind my back. :)
We'll, Cem,

I did count in that possibility. I just wanted it to look internally consistent. :)

For the original version, there are no clear signals, so the distant opening appears to justifiably have a claim for more importance in this composition than the hidden entrance we know nothing of!

"Love the one you're with!"

Asher
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  #20  
Old November 30th, 2013, 12:53 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Bart,

I think that was made with a multistep camera back, which explains how one can obtain a phenomenal result even with the front element of a lantern projection lens. The secret here for all the exquisite extra detail and dynamic range is in the artful use of a precise film back! It defies logic on first consideration, but it seems to work! There was no digital sensor invented yet, but it was done with monochrome film and not only multistep, but also red, green and blue filters, used in succession, for each of 32 micro steps in each shift direction. The shift mechanism was a stage from a machine tool assembly with manual stepping in 6 axes.

There was one photography assistant for documenting and saving the sheet film for each shot in that axis.

The entire process took 2 shifts of 16 workers and one supervisor to achieve, process and align all of the negatives.

Asher
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  #21  
Old November 30th, 2013, 05:42 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Bravo Cem
an interesting and essential thread.
I have been using for long the exposure fusion technique, always trying to avoid grunchy pictures…
As a professional and commercial photographer, it allows me to save a huge amount of time while shooting, because one do not need to add light.
Of course the time saved will be used in PP !
Also on the "artistically" side it allows me to render the real atmosphere. No tricks !
As a Mac User, I cannot use SNS (old debate !) but use the free and very simple ImageFuser then some more work in CS or even LR.
I started to use this technique for a shoot of a very contemporary interior of yacht (the CNB 100 Chrisco):


the challenge was to catch light and highlights in a black and white decor…
At first, without to be grunchy, my images were too natural, I mean too much details and people did think there were 3D (I guess you and Bart remember the big images at the Dusseldorf Boot Messe), so I went back a little to some more "normal" PP, burning just a little the highlights and darkening a little the shadows…
Our brains aren't used to "perfect" images ! LoL!

On another side it is always difficult to let client understand that I cannot PP dozens of images a s the PP is time consumer… so I did a short explanation in our new website, it's there.

Kudos again for your image and thread :-D

PS On can even do with people !

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Old November 30th, 2013, 10:06 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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This set of pictures, together, is very instructive about the values and conundrums of issuing light to an already lit image in post processing.

The existing light is distributed according to the rules of nature and falls off rapidly. While the brain doesn't do calculations of the inverse square law, it has learned expectations of how things should look and recognition of the sources of light on a scene.

So when we solve problems of poor, (or strong), lighting as we photograph a special scene, taking a series of under and over exposed images allows us to be creative in post processing.

So Cem cam across this indoor abandoned ruin of a place, a Word War II bunker! There are irregular broken walls asnd unlit inner rooms, all so interesting but hardly visible.





As we can see this hardly provides the powerful experience that being their in person, (being able to stare in the darkness and accommodate the eyes), where as human beings, our brains can add up thousands of images without any effort!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil
And this is the end result of HDR tone mapping, using SNS-HDR Pro followed by a touch of contrast correction in Nik ColorEfex4 and lens distortion correction in LR (the jpg is already corrected by the camera but not the raw).




Well, now it's alive. We can see more, we know more and feel that it's alive and much more compelling! We've little experience of Word War II bunkers, but the light distribution would make us turn around to see what's there too! This transformation is so effective as it takes a very complex flat and uninteresting "dull" image and makes it compelling.

However, Cem did not make it beautiful and it's still grim as it should be. The issue of "over cooked" hardly applies, since we need to see what we could not, and some brinksmanship is unavoidable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Bravo Cem
an interesting and essential thread.
I have been using for long the exposure fusion technique, always trying to avoid grungy pictures…
As a professional and commercial photographer, it allows me to save a huge amount of time while shooting, because one do not need to add light.
Of course the time saved will be used in PP !
Also on the "artistically" side it allows me to render the real atmosphere. No tricks !
As a Mac User, I cannot use SNS (old debate !) but use the free and very simple ImageFuser then some more work in CS or even LR.
I started to use this technique for a shoot of a very contemporary interior of yacht (the CNB 100 Chrisco):


Here, we have an amazing result! There are no photographers I know who can best this, even with studio lights. The space is generously lit, with a welcome invitation for us to view everything! Ou mood is elevated! When we feel that good, we'll linger and so the picture works for us, the photographer and of course the builders of this magnificent yacht! There's no sense of the technique itself announcing itself or even hinting it was ever there! It's as if the scene was born like this, perfect with no artificial edges, seams or uneven light to steal away our attention on the magnificent yacht interior.

Notice that the light through the open cabin door is much brighter. Others, less experienced, might have re-saturated those colors and brought down the over bright light. Not so! It must be as shown to signal where the light is coming from to flood the entire interior with perfect light. If the outside was Kodachrome rich and controlled at the highlights, we'd have lost faith with the pictures integrity. That one fault would have been catastrophic! It's here, and not grunginess, that good photographers make the most mistakes. do what every you like to your picture, but never contradict mother nature!

Of course, this is what I term a "Rent a Chateau" movie. If one films Versailles, of course it will be stunningly beautiful. But in truth, it's not that simple. It does have to be shown well, and that's what Nicolas has achieved to the nth!

Now with people, it's much harder:


It's almost as perfect as the previous image but the light on the face is, perhaps, very slightly more open than absolutely needed. However, that's a stretch at finding a fault, as next time, I might not see it!

In the image painstakingly photographed by Norman Rockwell, however, using many sheet films, all the faces are too open. But for him, he takes a picture with nothing in the room and adds faces, one at a time. Since their expressions are key, he can disobey all rules of great HDR, and evenly light every one of them with no qualms or conscience!

In each case, these three highly skilled and sensitive artists decisions on relighting were made according to the experience they want to deliver, not according to some presets and that's the key to using HDR well.

For the rest of us, it's very risky to use HDR at all, as we can easily damage a reasonable picture and make the process dominate the content!

Asher
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  #23  
Old November 30th, 2013, 10:32 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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A pretty good sum-up Asher!
I may add that it's a strong feeling for me (and I know for Cem too) that technique is only there to serve our purpose. Technique ain't the final goal!
Also as a detail but important, there's a small difference between Cem image here and mine, He uses real tone mapping HDR and I use "only" exposure fusion…
Another point, it is tricky to shoot that kind of scene with people (the 5th exposure being around 20 sec. long!) but also all the light rays as the boat constantly moves… so a simple addition of shots is not enough… but shhhhhhh…
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