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Beyond Al Gore: The OPF Global Warming Debate!

Ray West

New member
Hi Ferenc,

.If you plot the temperature ramp-up with the CO2 levels, the mystery deepens even further: almost perfectly correlated. That is temperature rise on the past 150 years comes out almost perfectly correlated with the rise of human activity, pollution and CO/CO2 production...
Something akin to this was mentioned. iirc it was along the lines that average global temperature had risen by half a degree Celcius in the last 150 years, but not steadily. Most of this half degree was before 1940. I think they were saying it was not related to CO2.

A bit of my view - FUD has been spread so far and wide, that it will be virtually impossible to verify any figures readily available. It seems that the IPCC report was biased, a number of the scientists were ignored, although their names appeared on the report. At least one guy had to threaten legal proceedings to get his name removed, he said there was no effective peer review. Where have I heard similar??

It may be better that fortunes are spent tilting at the windmills of global warming, compared to firing missiles at other countries, but I guess only time will tell.

Best wishes,

Ray
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
John,

A good part of the severe weather iappears to be due to shift in the axis of the earth and also the new wind cycles due to the Eastern MFR pollution smog.

So there are lot of processes going on at the same time: man-made to geophysical.

One cant expect a spinning sphere with a center of molten iron (swirling in its own underground storms) to have balmy conditons on the surface just as a matter of course!

It's the delicate balance of ecosystems that keep the planet fine to live on. However we carve, rip and smoke the planet like a hunk ofv venison! To know what is happening, we have multidisciplinary how much vegetation there is, the water transpiring to the air, the land mass being deforrested, the soot on the ice and much more which needs to be put into computer models to work out what is going on.

However, we are pretty damn sure that despite all we don't know all (and should know) that we already do know that we are foolishly trapping more heat under a blanket of pollutants!

Just because science challenged reporters or Al Gore might give simplistic explanations should not detract form the quality of the science. There, complexity is well recognized and aggressively addressed.

Asher
 

John_Nevill

New member
Thanks Asher, I believe there's too much supposition at play here. Thats why I don't watch a great deal of TV. One minute the BBC runs an "end of the world is nigh" documentary on global warming, then Channel 4 counter it a with the "Great rock and roll swindle"
At the end of the day resources are finite, economies thrive at the expense of poverty and politician's idealogies change with the wind. Que sera!
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
Absolutely true...

5. They don't give a damn whether or not they are contributing to global Warming they just want to appear as pro-ecology as part of their usual PR crap so they don't get taxed on their trillions!

Asher

...This is so true, that it basically forces to question who does this planet really belongs too... There is simply no real, genuine respect for children, for women, for birds, for nature, environment... It is all a fake, it is forced because of laws, but not ingrained in the cultural fabric that make up these organizations.

And these organizations (as well as many others) will be opposing people's common interests in favor of our core economic principles, which is "share holder value".

This is why, in the short term, we are trapped, my friend, and we are in deep s... :-(
 

Diane Fields

New member
Don...Like the new bathroom! Excellent job.

Thats my conundrum with all of this. WHO do we believe?

Who can I trust?

I can only trust my own instincts that tell me what the evidence shows.
Right now I trust people like Al Gore as there is no apparent political or corporate agenda.

There are no easy answers and dissecting specific numbers does not come close to a solution.

I have no idea what the ultimate solution is. It's beyond my abilities.

But it has to start happening and people have to bring their head out of the sand and say yes..this is a problem.

Jeff

And---he's not coming to this recently. I have a book of his from quite a number of years ago--long before he ran for president--where he was making the same case. I would rather believe people like him (and many scientists) and be wrong--than NOT believe him, not work for changes.

This will not affect me--I don't have that many years left--and I don't have kids nor grandkids--but I DO care about this world, the people and creatures that will come after me and I make an effort to understand what is happening and what I, as one person (in concert with other likeminded people) can do to change. I do agree with Don, though---that we've sort of made our bed for the future---but we can work towards not making it worse and reach a 'neutral' base.--which will affect things FAR in the future.

BTW--I like the bathroom too *smile*

Diane
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
Just a quick question, Ray...

It seems that the IPCC report was biased, a number of the scientists were ignored, although their names appeared on the report. At least one guy had to threaten legal proceedings to get his name removed, he said there was no effective peer review. Where have I heard similar??

Let us forget about the charts, numbers, etc. for one second. Let me ask you:

Do you know what the Moulins are? Have you seen them? If so, what do you think about them, their origins and their implications?

Let us try to ground ourselves in what is really happening, rather than the interpretation of the numbers.
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Ferenc,

I have not seen moulins, I only have an idea about what they may be after a quick google. I was merely trying to relay a small part of what was stated about the human contribution to global warming by the various people in the programmme. So far, I've only relayed a small part of the programme's content.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
About the "Moulins"...

Hi Ferenc,

I have not seen moulins, I only have an idea about what they may be after a quick google.

That's ok. I have not seen them in person, but I have seen in pictures their nature and their devastating effects (in any case, you may have seen them, but not the "coined" name).

The "Moulins" are WATER-FOUNTAINS formed over the surface of the ice-masses that are being melted up-there like butter spread over your pancakes. These moulins, while looking (and sounding) seemingly harmless , appear to run freely and unbounded the surface of the ice, and, at some point the suddenly dissappear into the depth of the ICE mass...

However, here comes the sinister part of the act: these "Moulins" are not stopping somewhere. They diabolically continue to carve the ice-masses (now on the Y-axis) *all the way down*, like drilling it slowly (and painfully)... to the point where it is just a matter of time before this water will reach the bottom, which is pure rock.

The next (and catastrophical) step of the carving is a sudden change of displacement of water, now going into the X-axis, and guess what happens? The water begins to carve the ICE on the ROCK-BED and unlocking it from where it has been stuck for God know's how much time... and then letting go into the sea... the Moulins and Ice, altogether like a big, lost ship, adrift.

IMAGINE! My house, in South Florida, which is 18miles straight from the SEA will be covered in water up to four (4) feet, effortlessly.

This is Global Warming in real, cold action. (and we keep trying to come up with numbers...)

Just a few thoughts, for tonights bed-time...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Well, Ferenc,

What about pumping supercold water into the Moulins to stop them drilling? We set up solar powered heat exhangers and pull heat out of the water!

Is your house below sea level?

Asher
 

Don Lashier

New member
The ironic this is that the clean air movement has probably accelerated global warming as pollution (particulate matter, soot, sulfer dioxide) actually have a cooling effect. Intentional pollution has even been proposed as a solution to global warming. - Could smog protect against global warming?

Volcanos btw also provide a cooling effect. As I mentioned before the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa reduced the earth's temperature by around a degree for nearly a hundred years and it was recently reported that the cold water is still there 123 years later

- DL
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
Fortunately, not...

Well, Ferenc,

What about pumping supercold water into the Moulins to stop them drilling? We set up solar powered heat exhangers and pull heat out of the water!

Well, it is hard to tell as to what different measures we could take / do... Now, considering how massive the issue is, I even wonder if there is something we can really do, for now.

The main problem lies on the colling/heating cycles that the ICE up there is exposed to. And it seems that those cycles are converging in MELTING the ICE, rather than keeping or cooling. Therefore, if a massively "cold" solution is devised, how can we keep it from not melting, again? :-/

Is your house below sea level?

Nope, but it is a few few above it.... very vew, indeed.
 

Tim Rucci

Member
With all due respect...

With all due respect for Al Gore (which isn't much), I think he's full of baloney. I believe he would do anything to further his cause and his opinion.

What I believe really doesn't matter, but here it is just so you folks know where I'm coming from.

I do believe that the earth cools and warms in cycles, and I also believe that what man does or does not do, contributes only a very minute amount to the process. Natural events such as volcanic eruptions do a lot more to effect warming than anything we are capable of doing.

So does this mean that I think we should pollute the earth? Of course not. We need to be responsible, but let's call it what it is rather then get all tied up in Al Gore's fuzzy math.

He created the internet, didn't he?
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
The problem is that...

With all due respect for Al Gore (which isn't much), I think he's full of baloney. I believe he would do anything to further his cause and his opinion.

...What you believe (or not) about him, or your opinon of him, has little or nothing to do with what is really happening in our planet, worldwide.

I do believe that the earth cools and warms in cycles, and I also believe that what man does or does not do, contributes only a very minute amount to the process.

Let me debunk this, immediately: your proposition sounds like you want to on "God's" and "Evil's" side, at the same time. Regardless of whatever happened in the past (cyclically), we have one major problem: only during the last 150 years, the earth has been exposed to an ever increasing and unstoppable levels of human-driven contamination which NEVER EVER were present before.

Therefore, any "past" cycles or "harmonic" assumptions about climate development and behavior are, unfortunately, severely questioned, as the variables we have today never existed before.

Just that simple.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
With all due respect for Al Gore (which isn't much), I think he's full of baloney. I believe he would do anything to further his cause and his opinion.

What I believe really doesn't matter, but here it is just so you folks know where I'm coming from.

I do believe that the earth cools and warms in cycles, and I also believe that what man does or does not do, contributes only a very minute amount to the process. Natural events such as volcanic eruptions do a lot more to effect warming than anything we are capable of doing.

So does this mean that I think we should pollute the earth? Of course not. We need to be responsible, but let's call it what it is rather then get all tied up in Al Gore's fuzzy math.

He created the internet, didn't he?

Tim,


I agree that Al is not the messenger that we would select for this subject. I think he is trying to remold himself for the 2012 elections. He has picked on an important subject of public interest but he is not fully informed and he is probably only 95% sincere and 120% driven by delusion of full comprehension.


Summary: Yes, every once in a while a meteor wipes out a 100 square miles or so, but until then, we need to protect what we have, just like we would on any short hike in the wilderness. For that we are aware of nature, conserve water and food and not get over-heated! That, after all, is what our life journeys are really about. At this time, we're overheating, poisoning and disrupting what we and our grandchildren love and need.

Explanation:

That having been said, the natural disasters wipe out millions of years of species development. That has happened before and will happen again. Some of these cycles are simply caused by natural cyclic shift in the earth’s axis and so the moon's pool on the water is changed and consequently temperate zones shift and seasons care earlier or later and plants and animals either adjust or lose out.

This we know.

We also know that mass planting of the wrong plants, such as fir tees replacing natural chaparral on the hills above winding rivers in S. Africa, dried up the rich rivers to trickles threaten all the thousands of creature, fish, birds animals in the food chain that depended on them.

One woman got permission to replace the natural vegetation to its wild state with native species and cleared the pines. The tributary subtended by that land refilled with water and life was rescued. Now they applied her work to the rest of those man abused hills.

We know that the acid droplet perpetual mists in China are changing weather patterns. More work is being done. But the Kyoto agreement foolishly allowed India and China to be shielded to protect them because they were developing countries!

The U.S. corps of Army Engineers helped all the communities to tame the mighty Mississippi and so essential silt no longer washed down the flat swamp lands wit hits own fragile ecosystems of anchoring plants that break the force of hurricanes, and so they can now roar in at almost full force over a fraction of the wetlands, now vanished that slow them down.

So what we do does change the planetary interconnected systems.

Add to that the blanket effect of green house gases we worsen the situation.

As a scientist, I am more convinced than not that the increase in industrial and churned up gases and decaying millions of tons of waste food in garbage dumps and the methane from cows contributes to global warming.

I feel that we can easily remedy this damage.

Of course, nothing we do matches the spasms of nature. We are always under threat of another volcano erupting or a meteor crashing devastating life for a long time.

In the meanwhile, in practical terms, we are the principal cause of climate change in our own life spans. That is what I consider the facts are.

However, even if this was not true, the climate is changing and without addressing this by all amelioration possible we will have industrial disruption, food shortages and tragic famines. There will also be blame on the West and further fuel for wars.

Even if that did not happen, we still have almost total loss of fish and other native aquatic life in most major rivers in the industrial word. The organic man made toxins have altered the sex of fish, wiped many out and the ones we catch are laden with some degree of these toxic substances.

Besides this 30% of all bird species and 70% of all news, frogs, toads and the like will be wiped out over the next 10 to 50 years. Pollution, season and climate change, introduction of non-native species are robbing our offspring of the planet's richness.

So let’s broaden our idea of "Climate change" to represent that all we do without necessity to destroy what we have gained dominion of: the entire plane.


Asher
 

Paul Bestwick

pro member
This story is from our news.com.au network Source: AAP

Top scientist debunks global warming
By Simon Kirby
April 11, 2007
MANKIND is naive to think it can influence climate change, according to a prize-winning Australian geologist.
Solar activity is a greater driver of climate change than man-made carbon dioxide, argues Ian Plimer, Professor of Mining Geology at the University of Adelaide and winner of several notable science prizes.

“When meteorologists can change the weather then we can start to think about humans changing climate,” Prof Plimer said.

“I think we really are a little bit naive to think we can change astronomical and solar processes.”

Speaking tonight after presenting his theory for the first time, to the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy in Sydney, Prof Plimer said he had researched the history of the sun, solar and supernovae activity and had been able to correlate global climates with solar activity.

“But correlations don't mean anything, you really need a causation,” Prof Plimer said.

So he then examined how cosmic radiation builds up clouds.

A very active sun blows away the cosmic radiation, while a less active sun allows radiation to build up, he said.

“So you can very much tie in temperature, cloud formation, cosmic radiation and the sun,” he said.

The next part of Prof Plimer's research was to examine the sources of carbon dioxide.

He said he found that about 0.1 per cent of the atmospheric carbon dioxide was due to human activity and much of the rest due to little-understood geological phenomena.

Prof Plimer also argued El Nino and La Nina were caused by major processes of earthquake activity and volcanic activity in the mid-ocean ridges, rather than any increase in greenhouse gases.

Nor does the melting of polar ice have anything to do with man-made carbon dioxide, he said.

“Great icebergs come off, not due to temperature change but due to the physics of ice and the flow of ice,” Prof Plimer said.

“There's a lag, so that if temperature rises, carbon dioxide rises 800 years later.

“If ice falls into the ocean in icebergs that's due to processes thousands of years ago.”

On the same basis, changes to sea level and temperature are also unrelated to anything happening today, he said.

“It is extraordinarily difficult to argue that human-induced carbon dioxide has any effect at all,” he said.

Prof Plimer added that as the planet was already at the maximum absorbance of energy of carbon dioxide, any more would have no greater effect.

There had even been periods in history with hundreds of times more atmospheric carbon dioxide than now with “no problem”, he said.

The professor, a member of the Australian Skeptics, an organisation devoted to debunking pseudo-scientific claims, denied his was a minority view.

“You'd be very hard pushed to find a geologist that would differ from my view,” he said.

He said bad news was more fashionable now than good and that people had an innate tendency to want to be a little frightened.

But Prof Plimer conceded the politics of greenhouse gas emissions meant that attention was being given to energy efficiency, which he supported.

The professor, who is writing a book on the subject, said he only used validated scientific data, published in reputable peer-reviewed refereed journals, as the basis of his theories.


One argument amongst many no doubt...........As usual I support the minority view. There was a time in history when people believed the world to be flat. Similairly today there is a belief that humans cause global warming.

Cheers,

Paul
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Paul,

The professor, a member of the Australian Skeptics, an organisation devoted to debunking pseudo-scientific claims, denied his was a minority view.

I see red! He's part of an organization, like a religion, whose pulpit is "debunking".

Of course this man does provide a good base for argument.

However, I'd respect his views more if they came from an academic not part of an agenda based organization whose survival and public image is constructed from controversy.

Asher
 

Ray West

New member
One argument amongst many no doubt...........As usual I support the minority view. There was a time in history when people believed the world to be flat. Similairly today there is a belief that humans cause global warming.

Hi Paul,

In the 1970's the political consensus was that we were going to enter another 'ice age'.

Best wishes,

Ray
 
I agree with and support Asher's views.

I believe the case for Global Warming is well established and the main unknowns are how quickly changes will continue and to what extent an effective response is likely.

One problem is inertia in the biological system so that even if we completely cease greenhouse emissions worldwide immediately (!) it will still take some time before the current rate of change reverses itself. This means we cannot wait for the changes to have occurred because by then it will be too late.

Another problem is the possibility of an ecological tipping point - a point at which our narrow band of ecological comfort disappears forever. There have been mass extinction events every one or two hundred million years in which up to 90% or life diappears and we risk creating one ourselves.

One such possible cause is the warming of the oceans (accelerated by the melting of arctic ice) reaching a point at which methane dissolved in the seabed evaporates into the atmosphere in significant quantities. Methane is a more critical greenhouse gas than CO2 and has the potential to not merely accelerate the greenhouse effect but also to usher in irreversible changes to the composition of the atmosphere.

I don't claim to be a scientist. I am an economic historian by qualification, systems developer by employment and photographer by inclination. This topic is too important for any of us to ignore.

I saw Al Gore's film and while I don't have any fundamental issues with it I found it maybe a touch superficial and perhaps a bit too anecdotal at times. Still, he does say it's intended to communicate to all and it is no doubt admirable in those terms.

However, I would recommend to people who disagree with what I say or who would like to know more to read Tim Flannery's The Weather Makers. This is a remarkable book that is very easy to read yet at the same time densely packed with scientific information.

Tim Flannery is an Australian scientist who has written a remarkable series of books. Initially he wrote books on Australian and PNG mammals and marsupials. Next he wrote several books on the ecological history of the Earth (The Future Eaters, The Eternal Frontier). Then The Climate Makers on the ecological balance between the past and the future, what is inevitable and what we can change. Well worth a read.

Regards,
Murray
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
Well - besides my opinion that an election of Al Gore for President some years ago would have the world moved in another direction as it is now - he´s a polititian and ALL polititicians have a short-sighted mind as i learned.
Politicians are not stupid enough (well, okay . . . ) not to realize facts that are modelling our future.
But can they act as they possibly would as a private person? I doubt.

I´m not sure how much we have influence on the global climate in reality to INITIATE a change of climate - fact is, we can ADD negative effects which can accellerate changings.

Starting at ourselves: stop smoking! It´s a FACT, it harms us. Why do we smoke anyhow?

Can we expect politicians to be wise if we ourselves avoid to be?

best, Klaus
 
I believe the case for Global Warming is well established and the main unknowns are how quickly changes will continue and to what extent an effective response is likely.

One problem is inertia in the biological system so that even if we completely cease greenhouse emissions worldwide immediately (!) it will still take some time before the current rate of change reverses itself. This means we cannot wait for the changes to have occurred because by then it will be too late.

Another problem is the possibility of an ecological tipping point - a point at which our narrow band of ecological comfort disappears forever. There have been mass extinction events every one or two hundred million years in which up to 90% or life diappears and we risk creating one ourselves.

Well, for several days already, April in the Netherlands (moderate sea climate at 52 degrees latitude) has set new record highs. This is partly due to the higher than usual sea water temperature, and a persistent high pressure system, which are due to ...

The average monthly temperature in April was the highest since 300 years, with still a few days to go, the number of sunshine hours (270 hours versus 158 hours normally) was higher then ever recorded before, and there hasn't been as little (0,3 mm) rain/precipitation since 100 years ago. The precipitation (rain + snow) deficit (precipitation minus evaporation) has not yet been as severe in this period since now.

The official Royal Dutch Meteorological Institute's conclusions:
"Global warming has increased the probability of an extremely warm April as the one we observed in 2007. However, on top of this it still was a highly unlikely event, with an estimated return time of more than 300 years. The record warm, dry and sunny weather was caused by a persistent high pressure system over our part of Europe".

Not that I'm complaining about the summer temperatures in the spring, but it is so dry that food crop seeds haven't germinated (even weeds haven't). There are likely going to be significant wasp (and other) infestations, and there is a serious concern that dykes (the water restraining wall kind) may dry-out and collapse (which is serious when 1/3rd of the country, and most of the economic activity, is below sea-level).

And we all know what that means for us photographers, higher temperatures and drought means more sensor noise and dust ...

Bart
 
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John Sheehy

New member
This story is from our news.com.au network Source: AAP
One argument amongst many no doubt...........As usual I support the minority view. There was a time in history when people believed the world to be flat. Similairly today there is a belief that humans cause global warming.

That's not a very good analogy. The flat world was the ignorant, assumed view that had always existed from people who didn't have the means to see/know better. The concept of global warming is not an assumed view that has always existed. The assumed view that has always existed is that the earth is here for humans to use at their own discretion, and that everything would take care of itself. *That* is the analog of a flat earth.
 

Jeff Donovan

New member
My late two cents here.

I think it's somewhat silly to act as if humans have had no effect on the environment the last 200 years. Any rational person has to accept this. We can argue about the degree, but I believe the first point is fairly inarguable.

While I'm not entirely convinced of global warming, I think it's silly for us not to take steps to reduce the human footprint on the planet. Drive fuel efficient cars, conduct research to develop more "green" energy sources, etc. Personally my wife and I own one car, every light bulb in my house is flourescent and will be disposed of properly when the time comes and we minimize our use of electricity as much as possible. We also recycle our garbage as much as possible.

I view the costs as an insurance premium. I pay my insurance for my car despite the fact that I have never in my 20+ years of driving had an accident that was my fault (knock on wood.)

I'd rather start paying an environmental premium now than have to pay the full (and likely massive) cost of an accident down the road.

An aside on solar power. I was reading in the Wall Street Journal this week that we are potentially running short of some of the rare-earth elements (gallium, halfnium) that are essential to the way we currently build solar panels.

Getting off fossil fuels might be even more difficult than we think!

Another aside. I moderate a message board for my undergraduate college and we have never had an AGW thread go five pages without becoming a slam-fest. It speaks well of the maturity here that such an issue can be discussed, and some admittedly "out-there" viewpoints be shown and people here still remain (for the most part) polite and focused on the issue.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Thanks Jeff for your input. Yes, we should reduce our footprint on ther planet!

We are just guests, after all and we shouldn't trash the place.

It's nor just global warming that concerns me, rather the heavy boots of us all over the planet. Our uneccessary additions to Global warming are just one consequence of our dirve to constantly grow.

This expansion of human enterprise has costs.

Now that we can store food, have efficient weapons, clean water and medicines, do we still need endless growth?

Is it like having genes for storing fat or for being deceptive, which helped us survive the harshest times, we now have no way for using restraint. There is no way to tell the genes which make us so competitive and greedy to just settle down to neutral efficiency, but with no net growth!

Why isn't enough, enough?

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
I have to damit that Jeff arguments are quite convincing...
But Asher, are you ready to get back to your Retinette? (mine was 1B!) would it be enough?
Do you think that people starving have enough? Though I do not agree with the actual generalisation use of "Genetically modified organisms" (I don't know the ewact term in English) I am sure we do have to search again and again for these enhancements to agriculture will help a better use of our ground.
I do believe science will bring the solutions while we shall follow the wise advices of Jeff.

I am still wondering why USA and Australia are the only big countries that have not signed the Kyoto Protocol...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I have to damit that Jeff arguments are quite convincing...
But Asher, are you ready to get back to your Retinette? (mine was 1B!) would it be enough?

Well, the Retinette uses chemistry which might or mioght not be more polluting. However, we could rest with what we havew right now!

Do you think that people starving have enough?

It's not a question of whether "starving people have enough", of course they do not, but it is the self-defeating policy of providing only food, water and antibiotics without a context that motivates the collaps of increased population growth and poverty as a consequence. The thousands of children in Africa who's lives I saved, are now great grandparents with massive families that cannot have sufficient sustainance. So what good did I do besides feeling great and kind at the time?

I am still wondering why USA and Australia are the only big countries that have not signed the Kyoto Protocol...

Nothing complicated. China and Inia have pretty well been excused. France Germany and the U.KI. have not dropped CO2 production by even 1micro gram. With Europe and Asia mega industry spewing out billions of tons of CO2, the Kyoto treaty is a farce.

Now Bush has other reasons, like thinking 1 ton SUV's can drink as much gasoline as he wishes and that's just a "way of life".

In reality, we can deal with this fast. We could have safe, protected nuclear power plants all over, gasoline cars banned in cities, free city transport, electric cars, insulated homes, wood for homes (withdraws CO2 from the artmosphere) etc. In this way we would cut the indistrial and transport CO2 production by 50% in the next 20 years.

Also Cows have to be kept indoors and the methane (worse than C02) captured and used for synthesis of useful materials.

Kyoto, IMHO, is a dangerous delusion!

So far, Europe has pretty will done nothing significant in spite of Kyoto!

Also China and India are not fragile societies but industrial power players that need to be addressed as strictly as everyone else!

Asher
 

Jeff Donovan

New member
The U.S. hasn't signed largely because we'll be the country bearing the largest cost since we are by far the largest economy in the world, while China produces just as much pollution with no consequences whatsoever.

In an aside, China is heading for an ecological disaster. I don't give them more than 10 years before they have severe environmental collapses due to their completely unregulated growth.

You'd think that an authoritarian state could look at the lessons the West learned in regards to industrial pollution and learn some lessons from it, but that would slow economic growth so they don't do it.

People also don't realize that even when China's economy becomes as big as the United States' economy, per capita income in China will be 1/4th of that in America.
 
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