Open Photography Forums  
HOME FORUMS NEWS FAQ SEARCH

Go Back   Open Photography Forums > OPF Welcome Hall > Breaking News

Breaking News Updates, innovations, equipment: moderated!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 13th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,752
Default Canon Quiet Recall? Is it true?

Find out if your camera dealer just returned theri last large delivery of Canon Eos DSLR 1D mark IIII at the request of Canon? I heard one large store was asked to return 60.

Of course this could be unsubstantiated. However, if true, it would be good news. My conjecture is that Canon has a solution to the lost focus issues Rob Galbraith and others have asserted plague the 1DIII.

Normally I wouldn't even report this, but to me at least, this does sound like a posiitive turn of events. Now is it ture?

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old July 14th, 2007, 07:00 AM
Tim Gray Tim Gray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 57
Default

No idea, but with the limited availabitlity I can't imagine there's much gap between the cameras coming in and being shipped. Otherwise Canon would probably just recall the shipment before it gets to the dealer.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 14th, 2007, 11:39 AM
Joseph A. Kurkjian Joseph A. Kurkjian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Find out if your camera dealer just returned theri last large delivery of Canon Eos DSLR 1D mark IIII at the request of Canon? I heard one large store was asked to return 60.

Of course this could be unsubstantiated. However, if true, it would be good news. My conjecture is that Canon has a solution to the lost focus issues Rob Galbraith and others have asserted plague the 1DIII.

Normally I wouldn't even report this, but to me at least, this does sound like a posiitive turn of events. Now is it ture?

Asher
Whew, a tough assignment, camera dealers here in Phoenix, AZ might land one or two a month and probably wouldn't be aware of a recall "if" the repair or corrective action is performed in one of the two repair facilities in the US (as versus rework performed by factory personnel overseas). Keep in mind any corrective action "today" could be nothing more than an extra step of testing for the problem; this approach would keep the distribution ship above water until the "real" fix is broken into production two or three months from now.

FWIW a few (and I mean just a "few") folks at DPR reported receiving their m3 bodies in the last couple of days; of course this doesn't mean there isn't some sort of silent recall afoot. If I find out anything concrete I'll be sure to come back with follow-up reply (the "local" store manager is out until Monday).

Asher, are you sitting on the sidelines waiting for a "real" positive turn of events before you pull out the wallet? The m3's IQ is SO good the temptation to test my luck and "just go for it" is strong but my common sense tells me to wait another five months (initially my wait period was six months but one month has already gone by). This "sitting back and watching grass grow" is not my usual thing and the situation is very aggravating to me.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old July 14th, 2007, 12:29 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,752
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph A. Kurkjian View Post
Whew, a tough assignment, camera dealers here in Phoenix, AZ might land one or two a month and probably wouldn't be aware of a recall "if" the repair or corrective action is performed in one of the two repair facilities in the US (as versus rework performed by factory personnel overseas). Keep in mind any corrective action "today" could be nothing more than an extra step of testing for the problem; this approach would keep the distribution ship above water until the "real" fix is broken into production two or three months from now.
For a very large retailer, I can imagine that they simply have an easy way of dealing with a whole block of the headaches in one go. That would suggest that they are doing a patchwork approach: pulling back on cameras sent out from the factory and oing the fix as well as getting back large orders that missed that process. The small digit orders they probably on't do, just hope for the best. Still this is not fact, just my conjecture if it is true that a block of 60 cameras was pulled back.

This is such an important report. We'd need something from a major retialer to substantiate this report.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph A. Kurkjian View Post
Asher, are you sitting on the sidelines waiting for a "real" positive turn of events before you pull out the wallet? The m3's IQ is SO good the temptation to test my luck and "just go for it" is strong but my common sense tells me to wait another five months (initially my wait period was six months but one month has already gone by). This "sitting back and watching grass grow" is not my usual thing and the situation is very aggravating to me.
Joseph,

First-user photographers are really beta-2 testers! These 1DIII Canon cameras have been around for about 18 months before release and used, in various adaptive incarnations, by photographers that are key to and trusted by the MFR. That way, over many months, they seek to iron out the problems. At the same time, new technology in the pipelines is becoming mature enough go use, like going from 12BIT to 14 BIT. They delay the camera, as long as possible, to get the most advanced reliable camera into that market segment.

With Canon in particular, they are so well organized production-wise that they can design and produce a camera version in 3 months from scratch, if they wish. So prior to release, they are able to get a lot of issues corrected. However, the permutations are immense. Each time a new part, technology or algorithm is introduced there are many known and and expected consequence to be dealt with.

It is to me, not surprising that there would be issues with sports if the latest versions of the 1DII had been tested by portrait and glamor photographers, for example. Even sports or bird photographers have different ways of shooting, so this, in itself, will skew the design and software in the engineers' final work.

So I always try to hold back.

I have done so with the medium format-quality Leica DMR digital back for the R8 and R9 Leica 35mm film cameras and then it was discontinued. Still, the DMR is a superior platform for imaging if one is lucky enough to have one!

When the Leica came out with a the dream of Leica rangefinder affecionados, the Leica M8 rangefinder camera, this was an unbelievably happy time.

I was going to grab one of those cameras for the small size, superb wide and normal lenses and extra 1.5 stops of dynamic range. However, within 2 weeks the flood of issues on the green blobs (now solved), lines (now solved) and purple clothes (where black synthetic fabrics were used, now solved with IR filter and new RAW software profiles). The camera is still a marvel!

I really am impressed with the 1DIII and would have jumped in earlier but for my very competent 1D mark II. Another month and we'll know more.

At least Leica openly announced recognition of the claimed problems and what they were going to do.

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 14th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Joseph A. Kurkjian Joseph A. Kurkjian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 53
Default The "months" keep adding up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I really am impressed with the 1DIII and would have jumped in earlier but for my very competent 1D mark II. Another month and we'll know more.
I understand and like you, feel very comfortable with my 1DmkII (now breathing a sigh of relief). I'm about 50/50 between landscapes and shooting animals and it is the last "50" that has me drooling over the wonderful high ISO performance of the m3.

Like you said, another month .....

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 14th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Kathy Rappaport Kathy Rappaport is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: So. California
Posts: 1,793
Default

The MkIII was in use in March at the WPPI show. Canon had a number of Pro's using and promoting it 4 months ago. If they are just now doing a recall they'd have been dealing with the issues since then. I am waiting to see what happens witha replacement for the 5D and then I will decide.
__________________
You can call me ChatKat
********************
I created this piece of fine art. It's Fine Art because it's mine, I made it and I say it's fine art...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old July 15th, 2007, 08:57 AM
Erik DeBill Erik DeBill is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
First-user photographers are really beta-2 testers! These 1DIII Canon cameras have been around for about 18 months before release and used, in various adaptive incarnations, by photographers that are key to and trusted by the MFR. That way, over many months, they seek to iron out the problems. At the same time, new technology in the pipelines is becoming mature enough go use, like going from 12BIT to 14 BIT. They delay the camera, as long as possible, to get the most advanced reliable camera into that market segment.
In software development there is a rule of thumb that every time you increase the number of users by an order of magnitude they will find roughly the same number of bugs. As you said - there are many many ways to use a camera, and each of them will expose different bugs. Even photographers in the same field will do things differently. Compare descriptions of working process from Uwe and Bettina Steinmueller and Paul Butzi and you'll see that different people do similar photography in different ways.

Coming out of beta and going live with something like the 1DIII the number of users probably went up several orders of magnitude. It's amazing that we don't have more episodes like this, with major cameras having scandalous bugs. Or rumours of scandalous bugs. It's fairly telling that every DSLR seems to be followed up with one or more firmware updates.

Last edited by Erik DeBill; July 15th, 2007 at 09:00 AM. Reason: fixed links (wrong markup)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 15th, 2007, 10:50 AM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,301
Default

I have no idea if this is true or myth. But I do recall that Canon does, indeed, have the chops to recall big lots of goods. Remember the recall of the first batches of 24-105L lenses that exhibited some occasionally freakish flare? Canon recalled and replaced those quietly and quite quickly within the first month or two of their release.

The 1DIII looks like a wonderful camera. But personally I'm currently in photo equipment nirvana. I've mostly mastered my equipment (1DII, 1DsII, 5D, M8 {err...}) and can now concentrate on the reason I spent so much money on it; making images! The only things on my shopping list are new skills and new project concepts.
__________________
- Ken Tanaka -
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old July 15th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,752
Default

Hi Ken,

I'm especially interested in your M8 work. Do you have pictures to start posting. We really need peope to start showinh M8 photography. Here's a brilliant new camera that people should experience, at least here on OPF. That way we underastand the character of the new system and the quality of the lenses.
If you are game, let's start a new thread for M8 images!

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old July 15th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,301
Default

As you requested, Asher.
__________________
- Ken Tanaka -
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old July 15th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Paul Bestwick Paul Bestwick is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hobart Tasmania
Posts: 462
Default

Hi Asher,

that is a big statement to make in a public forum so I would assume you must feel there is some weight behind it. Either way you have added fuel to the fire.
Personally, I don't believe that Canon would need to take any action "on the quiet". If there is a problem I think Canon would just rectify as required.
I mentioned last week that a firmware upgrade is imminent, who knows what issues that will address.
There have been no MK3 bodies returned to Canon for faults in Australia.

Cheers,

PB
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old July 15th, 2007, 05:44 PM
Will Thompson Will Thompson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Near the "Out House" of the Mouse (Disneyland)
Posts: 825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bestwick View Post
There have been no MK3 bodies returned to Canon for faults in Australia.
That they will admit to!
__________________
Will T.

"Galleries don't hang DxO charts" David Hull
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old July 15th, 2007, 09:53 PM
Paul Bestwick Paul Bestwick is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hobart Tasmania
Posts: 462
Default

Hey Will,

I have very good reason to believe what I have said is correct. Also, there is a firmware upgrade due this month.

Cheers,

PB
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old July 15th, 2007, 11:01 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,752
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bestwick View Post
Hi Asher,

that is a big statement to make in a public forum so I would assume you must feel there is some weight behind it. Either way you have added fuel to the fire.
Personally, I don't believe that Canon would need to take any action "on the quiet". If there is a problem I think Canon would just rectify as required.
Well, there is no reason why a MFR would give a press release on this! I am an avid Canon fan, loyal to the nth! The source is credible. I'm satisfied as much as I can be, to ask if anyone has independant evidence!

Our interest is to attempt to determine what is going on since Canon, unlike Leica, has chosen not to disclose anything!

I quote an unnamed source again, that appears quite credible,

"There is [indeed] an AF issue that occurs in unique circumstances (probably RG's) It is not widespread & all consuming as it has been made to appear on the internet."

So to me, at least, I'm expecting Canon to address the focus problems. However, when they release a new firmware update I hope they will say what it covers! Part of the problem is that when there is a vacuum of fact, the MFR loses control of the situation. It's unfortunate, but we camera buyers expect camera that work as advertised out of the box.

When Rob Galbraith and others document important issues and there is no substantive response from the MFR, all we can do is use the information we have.

After all, my 1DII works fine. I sure want the new body but why should I rush when there's no official report that I know of?

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old July 16th, 2007, 12:26 AM
KrisCarnmarker KrisCarnmarker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 240
Default

I too, find it unlikely that this is happening. If memory serves me right, Canon has disclosed recalls on previous occasions. Of course, if there really where "quiet recalls" on previous products, then maybe we wouldn't have heard of them. But isn't that unlikely as well? It's quite hard to keep something like that secret.

If Canon really would have asked for cameras back, would you still keep them on the shelf? Well, yesterday I was at a camera store here, and lo and behold, there was a MkIII sitting on the shelf. Unsold!!! If Canon has recalled the cameras, then even if you don't call in customers, you would at least return the unsold items, right?

I too think Canon should respond. But maybe they have? I'm thinking about the recent "IIN to III Migration Guide" and the Custom Function guides documents published. That could be seen as such a statement
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old July 16th, 2007, 04:01 AM
Steve Saunders Steve Saunders is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Default

Well my shop only got three bodies so far and they didn't stay in the shop long enough to get sent back. No word on a recall from them at the moment, but when they get any update they will contct me asap.
__________________
Regards,
Steve Saunders.
Steve Saunders Goldwing Page is at;
www.goldwingfacts.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old July 19th, 2007, 05:20 PM
Paul Bestwick Paul Bestwick is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hobart Tasmania
Posts: 462
Default firmware update

Asher,

it appears the info I gave you was spot on.

Cheers,

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old July 19th, 2007, 05:52 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,752
Default

My information that 60 were returned seems sold enough, although we have only reliable word, not photographs of the return or reports from the actual stockroom.

My feeling is that it's true as getting 60 1DIII corrected in one go is a relatively easy thing to do as opposed to dealing with the trickle of 1-3 cameras from many small dealers.

I'd imagine that it's something like this for focus issues that only some savvy users would ever realize and complain about
  1. Update everything going out
  2. Bring back whatever we can from distributers or big retailers
  3. Sweat the rest out
  4. Give a firmware update
  5. deal with holdout complainers on a 1 to 1 basis

Of course, without Canon issuing an admission that there is an issue, defining it and disclosing the remedies tried and what works, we can only continue to speculate.

I personaly find no comfort in the receny Profoto assertion that there are some good and some not so good IIDIII bodies and blame it on the super-accuracy of the new camera! I'd rather hear from the professional bird photographers or sports photographers than a wedding photographer.

It's like saying we have a radar controlled super machine gun that's so accurate in locking in to a target that it misses 50% of the time!

Asher

To make known my preferences, I want a 1DIII for low light work, high ISO capability and to lock in focus faster. I am fully behind the camera once we know what's going on. For one, I'd like to see Canon address Rob Galbraith's focus issues! After all, I'm a Canon fan!
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old July 19th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Ray West Ray West is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK - Somerset
Posts: 1,703
Default

A firmware update will not necessarily correct quality control issues, or tighten up tolerances. Suppose one in five cameras has a problem. Then, maybe one in five users is using the camera in the operating area in which the problems occur. Someone good at sums could work out the chances of a reseller with 3 cameras, say, selling a faulty unit to a photographer who may find the fault. Best to wait for the user to complain. Exactly as Asher says, recall large quantities to check them over, since there is a far higher chance of complaint to that retailer.

Also, what is the distribution chain? I doubt if every reseller buys them directly from Canon, but from a higher tiered distributor. Then, of course, the batches sent to Europe will be different than those sent to USA, and the way that each Canon region handles this will be different. I can quite believe that B&H, or whoever have been requested to return large quantities, but it could be a wasted effort to initially recall every unit from every smaller retailer.

Best wishes.

Ray
__________________
All images posted in OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated Comment Only or Edit and Repost.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old July 20th, 2007, 08:10 AM
Ed Cordes Ed Cordes is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray West View Post
I can quite believe that B&H, or whoever have been requested to return large quantities, but it could be a wasted effort to initially recall every unit from every smaller retailer.

Best wishes.

Ray
So, does that mean that new buyers are much better off dealing with an entity like B&H rather than a smaller shop as the chance of getting a "fixed" camera is much higher??
__________________
Life is beautiful, but a little mild insanity keeps us healthy!

http://www.ecordesphotography.com
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old July 20th, 2007, 10:50 AM
Ray West Ray West is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK - Somerset
Posts: 1,703
Default

Hi Ed,

Quote:
So, does that mean that new buyers are much better off dealing with an entity like B&H rather than a smaller shop as the chance of getting a "fixed" camera is much higher??
Obviously the smaller local shop has some advantages, if they are local to you, but they also have disadvantages compared to larger mail order establishments. I've no idea which may be better for you, if you consider everything. I have no money for a MK III, but if I did, and I wanted one now, I would buy it now. I think the problems, if any, have been hyped up. I also think Canon will fix it. Also, of course, there is legislation covering the sale of goods, at least in the uk, wrt. fitness for purpose.

Of course, in my previous email, I did use words like 'suppose', 'maybe', I asked about the distribution chain, - in other words, the reality is often different from my guesses, but until Canon say what is happening, all we can do is guess. Seems we do that a lot with Canon.

Best wishes,

Ray
__________________
All images posted in OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated Comment Only or Edit and Repost.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:25 PM.


Posting images or text grants license to OPF, yet of such remain with its creator. Still, all assembled discussion 2006-2017 Asher Kelman (all rights reserved) Posts with new theme or unusual image might be moved/copied to a new thread!