General questions on rangefinders

[Jeff Donovan]

I'd like to learn some more about rangefinders and am looking at finding an affordable film one to use before buying one of the more expensive digital rangefinders.

Any ideas or hints on what I should be looking for? With the wealth of experience here I'm sure some folks have owned or still own film rangefinders.

Thanks for any help yo can give.

Jeff

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Jeff,

[QUOTE=Jeff Donovan;46979]I'd like to learn some more about rangefinders and am looking at finding an affordable film one to use before buying one of the more expensive digital rangefinders.

Do you mean rangefinder cameras?

If not, this kind has a good reputation:

[Asher Kelman]

Jeff,

Doug is too funny!

Rangefinder cameras allow one to have a portable camera that is fast to focus. It makes use of a projected image of the scene which one simply lines up with the view through the optical viewfinder. If one is good at it, one can keep both eyes open so one sees within the wide milieu from which one is choosing what to include in the composition of your shot. Also one can do the same looking at the area of the optical viewfinder that is lateral to the etched rectangle (for the appropriate focal length) that one sees in the viewfinder. Some camers are cammed (geared) for just one lens, so that the focal distance indicated on the manual focus of the lens, (or the base of a view camera) matches the exact distance achieved by lining up the two images in the viewfinder.

Rangefinder cameras, or despite Doug's complaint (ha, ha!) simple a Rangefinder, to those who are not assassins, target shooters or gunners), come in essentially in 3 sizes, you need the third:

the 4x5 cameras Just for reference

Crown Graphics (used for about $200-400 on eBay or KEH)
The carbon

Wista Technical 45RF Rangefinder 4x5 Metal Field Camera ~$2800

Medium Format: for reference. Use 120 or 200 film

The beautiful Mamiya 6x6 and 6x7 camera new and used. These have amazingly sharp[ lens and a bright viewfinder. Various prices used and new, starting from about $1500 with an 80 mm lens (that's the normal lens and equivalent to a 45mm lens on a 35mm full frame camera).

There are also older MF Rangefinder camera with fantastic lenses KEH and here. They have folding MF cameras with really great lenses. This is the most amazing website ever for MF rangefinder cameras. Not all have rangefinders. Everything he sells has been brought up to snuff! Often new bellows

35mm Rangefinders: This is what you want!

You can pick up used rangefinders with a fixed lens from KEH. I love the Kodak Retinette series.
However, the best cameras were Nikon, Canon, Konica, Zeis Ikon and of course Leica amongst others.

Recently the Voigtlander Bessa cameras became a wonderful choice. Great lenses and viewfinders at affordable prices.

You should look at Cameraquest.com. The Bessa cameras are an absolute bargain. The lenses you buy can be used also on an M8 Leica digital Rangefinder camera if you get the same mount. The Bessas come in both the older Leica screw and then modern Leica M, bayonet mounts.

Bessa is made by Cosina a very well respected Japanese lens and camera MFR that has licensed or owns the famous and venerable Voigtlander camera name.

B&H has an inexpensive camera that is worth looking at. It's a Bessa T Rangefinder with the same M mount one would use if you graduate to the Leica M8 digital camera which is a dream.

here.

One lens, probably 35mm and you will be hooked!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

I received the following surprising objectionfrom Stephen Gandy of Cameraquest.com

"Not OK at all Asher.

Copying my text or my photos is a violation of my copyright, which is on every page of my site, which specifically says no one may copy my text or pics.

Please remove ALL my text and photos at once." So I have, reluctantly.

I'm so sorry for offending. However, if we cannot quote reasonably, we would be supporting the decimation of free press. That would mean that stores could post anything and no one would be able to comment good or bad. We are not using the text. The sample was only two lines small. We are not competing with them and we only present Cameraquest in a good light. They are, after all a great resource. I really don't wish to upset anyone, least of all Stephen Gandy who sells great cameras. However what is is what is! So I have gone along with the request and removed Stephen's photograph of the camera. These are anyway on the B&H website. So that was not needed for my comments.

As far as I know, as editor, I can refer to text and images to editorialize and this is "fair use" under copyright law. I would love Stephen to say it's O.K. but the principal is there. I only have good will! Well, I don't know the source of the discomfort but there are other stores, equally as good, and are happy to be referenced, good thing the camera I suggest is in stock elsewhere:

1. BHPhoto Video here

2. For comparison look at the price of used Leicas here. The grading given by B&H and KEH are very conservative and both are trustworthy. You don't need a collectors grade Leica to be very happy. Check what's in transit as they have constant incoming stream of great inventory at KEH. The minolta version of the Leica camera were made, AFAIK, in Canada and work fine. The quietist shutters, however are found in the still older Leica's from Germany and are a good bet if you are shooting in a theater, concert or recital where the shutter sound might be important.

I have purchased from these sources, including Stephen, with no problems. eBay is another source and Adorama, and other established superstores sell cameras there too. Also one can look at Rangefinder.com where there is a constant recycling of these cameras! Those guys are likely to baby their cameras and one should purchase from people who have a lot of posts and have a reputation to maintain

The special advantage of the Bessa is economy. For someone like me who like wide angles, then these cameras have a special advantage. Cosina makes Voigtlander Bessa Versions with rangefinder window marking for the wider lenses down to 21mm which is handy for interior photography and landscape. The Bessa bodies are all essentially the same except for some differences related to the choice of a mechanical versus and electronic shutter and the screw versus the modern M mount, which allows lenses to be used with the Leica M8 too. The mechanical shutter is said to be somewhat quieter than the famed quiet mechanical shutters of the Leica film cameras. I have not yet found recordings. The obvious advantage is that it will work when the batteries fail. I like that! you just need film and exposure is fine if one follows the simple guides inside each 35mm film box.

From 1959, the founder of what would become Cosina was Mr B. Kohayashi. The company first made lenses from the glass to pressing and polishing lens. The company was built to a camera and lens producing powerhouse with lenses sold under different house brand names. The son of the founder, Mr Hirofumi Kohayashi took over as president in 1989. Cosina acquired the rights to the Voigtlander name and its development was a great triumph as it breathed new life into the declining rangefinder market. Here one could set oneself up with a well functioning small subtle non intimidating camera without paying Leica prices. Of course the camera is no Leica. Still the lenses are excellent. In fact the modern M lenses made by Cosina for their Bessa camera can be used with your Leica M8cwhen you get it!

I'll be buying some of these cameras for review and see how it is to use compared to the wonderful Leica M8.

If you are in the L.A. area we could discuss the options further! I'd advise to to invest in a subscription to Reid Reviews here . Sean Reid knows more about rangefinder cameras than most anyone else. His reviews are so worthwhile, that I think anyone interested in purchasing would do well to read his work. He not only is a great photographer, but also is a nice chap.

Asher

[Jeff Donovan]

Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful responses.

I was able to pick up a Minolta Hi-Matic 9 on eBay for about $50. It looks to be in very good condition. The only real issue is that the original batteries were mercury based and are now illegal, so you need to work around that in order to use the metering function.

I should have it by next week and once I run a roll of film through it I'll post some results. If I enjoy the rangefinder experience than those Bessas are definitely getting a close look. Hopefully I can get my hands on one at B&H next time I'm in NYC.

[Jeff Donovan]

Oh and I agree, Asher. So long as you stated the source of the text, there should be no issue with you reproducing it here. The pictures might be different, not sure about that.

Copyright isn't a protection against use, it's a protection against use without citation if I remember my free-elective college law classes. From Wiki...

Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. In the United States, the fair use doctrine, codified by the Copyright Act of 1976 as 17 U.S.C. Section 107, permits some copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. The statute does not clearly define fair use, but instead gives four non-exclusive factors to consider in a fair use analysis. Those factors are:

1. the purpose and character of your use
2. the nature of the copyrighted work
3. what amount and proportion of the whole work was taken, and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Hi, Asher. Good advice, except that the head of Cosina who is referred to constantly on CameraQuest's site (in the tiniest of print) is Mr. Kobayashi, not Mr. Kohayashi. I'm interested to find out that this has been a several generation effort, as it is clear that Cosina has been a force in the industry.

And congratulations on setting up a corner in which to welcome the Mitch Alland/Sean Reid/small sensor community. That community has created an interesting buzz on getDPI under the themes of "small sensor" and "Leica M," so I hope that it will reinvigorate the digital rangefinder line on OPF as well.

Titles or no titles, I am curious about where Tim found the room with a horizontal clock face.

cheers,

scott

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick

Hi, Asher. Good advice, except that the head of Cosina who is referred to constantly on CameraQuest's site (in the tiniest of print) is Mr. Kobayashi, not Mr. Kohayashi. I'm interested to find out that this has been a several generation effort, as it is clear that Cosina has been a force in the industry.

And congratulations on setting up a corner in which to welcome the Mitch Alland/Sean Reid/small sensor community. That community has created an interesting buzz on getDPI under the themes of "small sensor" and "Leica M," so I hope that it will reinvigorate the digital rangefinder line on OPF as well.

Titles or no titles, I am curious about where Tim found the room with a horizontal clock face.

Scott & Tim,

Titles: Titles are not required but desired when we want to refer to something we respect. In a photoshoot ~last year, a photographer asked the name of a woman of a group she was photographing. She was told Mariamme (TTBOMK) so she called the name, "Mariamme!" The woman turned round to see where surprise come from. She was totally astonished and burst out into laughter. She then fell into the arms of the other women, sobbing. She had been called "You!" for the past ~13 years since her marriage! That was the first utterance of her own name she had heard in that time.

"Untitled" is always a puzzle. Most works of arts have titles as the way the artist has to frame our approach to the work in which internal ideas and emotions have been engraved. It's the photographers right not to title the work. However, that is not much help to the rest of us.

We like to know about lighting, time of day, how one came to approach below the hovering hawk because we all learn. To just see great pictures, I have the Getty, LACMA, Moca and many fine LA galleries or I'm off on my usual round in NY, Paris, London, Budapest and more. So it's generous to provide information. You may help someone get to where they need to be in photography when they find you used a give-away-price Voigtlander lens by Mr Kobayashi or a 50mm 1.8 Canon lens for $just $30 used. Since at OPF we are nurturing, we are always thinking of how someone else might be given an easier boost on their own journey. It's not because we think our choices are best, rather that, a year from now, at 3:00 am, Jill in Aukland, New Zealand can see how that image was approached. That's what we want!

Of course a thread dedicated to "The picture, no words" is fine too, since it is a discrete opportunity to just show one's work with or without titles no questions asked.

"I am curious about where Tim found the room with a horizontal clock face." Indeed, so was I. That's why here, among serious photographers we do care. Of course no one has to disclose anything.

Scott,

I have such a love for the rangefinder. It offers an especially intimate way of seeing the world through one's own two eyes without distortion of the lens in a relfext camera. The rangefinder allows us to choose what we want. When I'm using my 50 1.2 lens and looking through it, the experience is limited to the focus zone I'm in. How can I sample something that is simply not there as with a 50 1.2 at 1.2? The Mamiya 7II and the 35mm size rangefinder film and digital cameras are all of the pedigree I love. In addition, people do not feel they are being attacked or that your camera is a must for stealing. Most thieves think the M8 is an old fashioned piece od antique junk. Just add on some black masking tape. The camera is not even there!

So I'm particularly glad to have OPF enriched with buddies for your own M8 work! That's what Sean brings and it's a great addition to OPF.

Thanks for posting! your little girls are darlings!

Asher

[Jeff Donovan]

Got the camera and it's a beauty. Chatted a bit via email with the seller (a very nice guy) and he said he thought that it was probably bought for someone who then found it too complex and put it in a drawer for the better part of 50 years.

There is no sign of wear anywhere, even on the film pressure plate. I don't think much film has been run through this.

I'm going to run a roll of film through it to see if it still meters properly. This camera used one of the old 1.35v mercury batteries originally and currently has a 1.5v battery in it. I've seen online where someone makes an adapter that you plug a modern 1.5v battery into. The adapter then reduces the voltage to 1.35 and holds it steady until the battery dies. It only costs $30 or so so I might just grab one anyways.

And Asher, thanks for the roadmap on rangefinders there. If I enjoy this camera as much as I think I will I see myself following the roadmap you laid out pretty closely!

[Asher Kelman]

Jeff, congratulations!!

B&W processing is not expensive in the store but you might try it yourself. Good luck and please photograph the camera, show it and then what you do with it. I'm really looking forward to this and wish you luck! I like the idea that you put this back into good use.

Asher

[Jeff Donovan]

Finally took some photos of the Hi-Matic tonight

[Jeff Donovan]

[Jeff Donovan]

I'll just post the two I like the most. One is uncropped, but I adjusted color, brightness and contrast in PS3. The other is likewise adjusted for brightness and contrast and then desaturated.





I was somewhat happy to find our cat (named Fluffy, of course) actually sitting up. She's ancient (16 or 17) and spends most of the day sleeping. She likes sitting on our bed because when we open the windows she can see everything that's happening on the street.

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Jeff,

Fluffy is one fine animal and an excellent subject, despite by railings against "cat pictures" used test lenses. I lke the idea of taking pictures of her in the natural setting of the room. Is that what you plan to do. Since she is 16+ years old, for sure she has interesting habits you must know and favorite places to hang out.

BTW, I do like the color. Is there any pink in her coat? What film are you using and how is it diigtized?

[Jeff Donovan]

Asher,

I need to get in the habit of recording the type of film I'm using. I'm pretty sure it was Fujicolor Pro 160C.

She's a monochrome cat, all white and gray. I think the pink shading might be from a red Chinese luck charm we have hanging in that window.

I'm going the cheap route and having the film processed at a local Walgreens. They digitize it off the negatives (I asked) and give decent sized files that can actually be manipulated in Photoshop without much effort.

I'm looking into getting set up so I can develop here at home, but I want to learn from someone before I do that. I'm also saving for a dSLR so I want to save as much cash as possible for that.

[Jeff Donovan]

Asher, I was reading through this thread again just for fun and realized that one of your comments regarding to rangefinders isn't going to apply to me.

You mention being able to keep both eyes open when you focus. However, I'm left-handed and left-eye dominant so I focus looking through my left eye.

I still make due, though :)

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Jeff Donovan

Asher, I was reading through this thread again just for fun and realized that one of your comments regarding to rangefinders isn't going to apply to me.

You mention being able to keep both eyes open when you focus. However, I'm left-handed and left-eye dominant so I focus looking through my left eye.

I still make due, though :)

Hi Jeff,

Interesting, in the sense that I'm a left handed person by nature myself. My parents noticed that I mounted my bike (I'm from the Netherlands) from the 'other' side, so they made sure I got trained as a right handed writer (amongst others), to at least avoid smudged writing (yes, I'm old enough to have learned writing with pen and ink!). It has since become of additional curiosity of me to learn if people have an inclination towards the artistic, or the practical ...

Bart

[Rhys Sage]

I have two rangefinder cameras. One is a Fed 5C and one is a Fed 2. I read about the problem of mercury batteries with interest. This is, of course, why I usually preferred to have manual mechanical bodies. My Fed 2 has no meter. My Fed 5C has a selenium cell meter. Both will take Leica screw lenses. The Russian lenses are also pretty darned good. I almost went for a Leica M series at one point. In the end I went for Nikon FMs before I ended up with Canon digital. I still have my Feds (which I picked up when I was working in the Baltics) and my Nikons.

The Feds are wonderful cameras and I thoroughly recommend them. They're named after the founder of the KGB, Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky.

[Jeff Donovan]

Originally Posted by Rhys Sage

I have two rangefinder cameras. One is a Fed 5C and one is a Fed 2. I read about the problem of mercury batteries with interest. This is, of course, why I usually preferred to have manual mechanical bodies. My Fed 2 has no meter. My Fed 5C has a selenium cell meter. Both will take Leica screw lenses. The Russian lenses are also pretty darned good. I almost went for a Leica M series at one point. In the end I went for Nikon FMs before I ended up with Canon digital. I still have my Feds (which I picked up when I was working in the Baltics) and my Nikons.

The Feds are wonderful cameras and I thoroughly recommend them. They're named after the founder of the KGB, Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky.

I seriously considered the FEDs when I was looking for a rangefinder, but I remember reading something about if you changed a setting with the film cocked, you could break something. That kinda scared me off because I'm not the most anal person in the world with returning settings back to where they should be.

[Cedric MASSOULIER]

before buying one of the more expensive digital rangefinders.

Hum, today there's only one choice for a digital RF : Leica M8 !
And former and very rare Epson RD1s with 5 Mp sensor...

[Asher Kelman]

Don't count out Zeiss-Ikon! With the money they must be making, maybe they will actually do it!

Asher

[Cedric MASSOULIER]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Don't count out Zeiss-Ikon! With the money they must be making, maybe they will actually do it!

Asher

Yes, indeed, it would great. Zeiss Ikon ZM seems to be an excellent rangefinder, with affordable price and modern features... A bit less modern than my Hexar RF but still alive ! ;)

A digital ZM with FF sensor to keep focal lentghs would be fantastic.

[fahim mohammed]

Jeff, congrats. the hi-matic is a lovely instrument and fluffy is ..well..cuddly. I am sure you will
enjoy rf photography.

small,unobstrusive,sshhh quiet, and generally wow!



did i say unobstrusive, small, quiet!

Best regards.

[Mike Shimwell]

Originally Posted by Cedric MASSOULIER

Yes, indeed, it would great. Zeiss Ikon ZM seems to be an excellent rangefinder, with affordable price and modern features... A bit less modern than my Hexar RF but still alive ! ;)

A digital ZM with FF sensor to keep focal lentghs would be fantastic.

Yes, I think there are a few of us awaiting that instrument!

Fahim, another winner.

Mike

[Jeff Donovan]

Originally Posted by fahim mohammed

Jeff, congrats. the hi-matic is a lovely instrument and fluffy is ..well..cuddly. I am sure you will
enjoy rf photography.

small,unobstrusive,sshhh quiet, and generally wow!



did i say unobstrusive, small, quiet!

Best regards.

Fahim, beautiful picture. I haven't been taking many photos lately but I need to get back in the groove.

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by fahim mohammed

Jeff, congrats. the hi-matic is a lovely instrument and fluffy is ..well..cuddly. I am sure you will
enjoy rf photography.

small,unobstrusive,sshhh quiet, and generally wow!



did i say unobstrusive, small, quiet!

Best regards.

I had better be fast, Fahim, for I'm moved by the Sienna earth tones from the dress along the hand to the flowers. If I linger, an hour will go by and a page of text. This is a remarkable and powerfully sensitive and sensotic but modest image. I'm impressed by the power of the hand art which is the essential axis of this work. When and where?

Asher

I have reservations about the tonalities remaining in the white flowers. These many need to be recovered and the edges re-defined.

Asher

[fahim mohammed]

Jeff, Asher...thanks guys for stopping by.

Jeff, carry the little cam with film and you are all set to go.
Asher, As artwork goes, unfortunately I am not at liberty to post the other henna designs. suffice to
say they were exqusitely designer henna work!

Regards.

[doug anderson]

I have a Contax G1 and a Contax g2. Beautiful rangefinder film cameras, Zeiss lenses, compact, sturdy and nice looking.

I'm worried, however, that since Contax is going out of business, there will be nobody to repair them.

I paid about 2K for the G2 and two lenses (45 & 35) in 2000.

[Jeff Donovan]

Doug, I'd just use them and hope for the best. I'm sure their resale value is in the tank for the very reasons you mention. I would also think that there would be people around for a few years at least who could repair them for you.