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Old April 9th, 2013, 03:02 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Default Multishot vs. singleshot...

A large part of pro photography is still photography... what the use of multishot does, is to align different pixels polluted on 2Gs, 1R & 1B at the same position and thus provide: 1. True color (all pixels behave like if they where recording in color without the Bayer pattern being involved and without color interpolation), 2. Complete moire elimination, 3. Ultimate sharpness, (what I call "pixel definition") 4. More than two stops of DR increase...
More than that..., some of the older MFDBs that use a Kodak sensor of 9microns pixel size, are able to do 16x (4x4=16) multishot... During this process, the pixel is moved in all directions, half a pixel's side length... the result is that each pixel splits in four other true color real pixels! ...and resolution is quadrupled, while the resolution required from the lens is still to serve the original sensor pixel... i.e. 9microns!!!
To give you an idea of the result, the largest image areas from these backs, where the now discontinued, Imacon 528c, the Sinarback 54H and the Hasselblad 22ms which replaced the Imacon, they all bear the Kodak 22mpx sensor and can provide 88 true megapixels if shot in 16x mode... if you compare that 88mpx outcome with the same picture taken with the most modern 80mpx single shot back, the difference in favor of the multishot back, is huge and obvious in all aspects that a photographer would consider..., Its more, ...much more, than if you was to compare a D800 with an old D200...
I am sorry I can't let you see a full size image of painting reproduction I do for my clients using an Imacon 528c... but let me give you an idea out of a hugely compressed file that I present in my web page, in which the covering is a highly reflecting silver coating... the ikon presented is 3 feet tall!


I hope many of you will be involved and contribute in this discussion, which my intention is to include all the details and the techniques involved to maximize this superb's technological achievement's result... Thank you.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 03:34 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Theodoros,

It's simply fabulous that your are doing this with an old Kodak sensor, LOL! This is amazing and much more economical that using either film or an 80 MP digital back. I wish there were more available.

I guess you need special software to drive the stepping motor. Can you add a time interval between each shot to allow any vibrations to die down.

Asher
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  #3  
Old April 9th, 2013, 05:10 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Theodoros,

It's simply fabulous that your are doing this with an old Kodak sensor, LOL! This is amazing and much more economical that using either film or an 80 MP digital back. I wish there were more available.

I guess you need special software to drive the stepping motor. Can you add a time interval between each shot to allow any vibrations to die down.

Asher
LOL!!! Good point Asher! Yes, it is surprising what old equipment can do isn't it? ...but again, the "old wolves" between photographers are used into finding and bringing back to life treasures of the past... The resistance to modern technology is explainable though... it seems to me that because each pixel receives "true color" there is less, much less color processing involved from the software support... Another important factor is that the method is highly depended on its mechanical accuracy... Notice that the more expensive multishot backs, that were based on Kodak's 39mpx sensor, can only do 4x... not 16x!!! ...thus offering inferior quality when in multishot, still superior to any modern singleshot back though... I suspect this had to do with the inability of the control system of the back that is moving the sensor to achieve half a pixel's accuracy with smaller pixels! Even today that Hasselblad is offering the 200ms camera and Sinar the Exact MFDB that are the only ones capable of quadrupling the resolution (the only backs that do it after the discontinuation of the Kodak 22mpx sensor), the mechanical method used from these backs is different... I am not sure that the result is better either (perhaps if one has the experience can enlighten us on this - I am curious), my suspicion is based on the much heavier requirement these new sensors put on the lens... since they are both of around 50mpx. Amasing eh? ...a 9 year old back that can beat anything around either if it is ultra high res single shot or 200mpx multishot! ...it makes you think...
As you say though, they are not easy to find around... the owners know of the irreplaceable treasure they own and there are not that many that where made... The thing is that the Imacon 528c and the identical in performance Hasselblad 22ms can also shoot untethered with quality that is as good as a P1 P25+... so they have both worlds!
Yes, you do need special software, its only tethered through a computer that you can do multishot, the camera is driven through a special program, for my Imacon it's called the "flexcolor" and is supplied for free (as are the updates)! The Sinar 54h can only work with a Mac... if it is the firewire output version! Now, listen to this! ...the 54H's first version has a fibre optical output and can only work with a G4 old Mac and a special PCI board! ...oooups!
Obviously, vibration control is most important with the sensor moving 4.5 microns... I do have 100% success in 16x mode with mine (in fact I only use 16x, never 4x when in multi), both with my Contax 645 and with my Fuji GX680 which is about the most "noisy" MF camera around... but lets discuss this later, there are many "tricky" points that one must take care to achieve success on all his 16x shots, its not difficult to make 16x as easy as a long exposure, but he has to eliminate all the factors that may oppose the success... starting of course with the tripod... So, I am sending you a picture of my tripod with my Contax and back fitted in your mail, so that you can publish it for me if you please!
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Old April 11th, 2013, 03:24 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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another example on what multishot means... the ikon is 90cm (3 feet) tall.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 05:55 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Those letters (the lower ones) are really tiny and can't be read on the original painting, unless you have perfect vision and approach the painting at the nearest possible distance... The height of the ikon is 3 feet tall... I doubt that an 8x10 view camera with any sheet film would have that much of a resolving power... Those lower letters are less than half the size of the letters in the previous example.... Notice the width of the white writing that the spirit at the center is holding (the lower of the magnified letters on the left).... It's half the width of the other white area on the writings that the saints on the windows are holding... Those letters (the lower ones) are of less than a tenth of an inch in height for the capitals (the Alpha) and half of that for the rest... The whole white area is no more than half an inch in height! ...you can see that by comparing the white area's height with the whole 3 feet height of the painting.


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Old May 1st, 2013, 06:44 PM
Terry Lee Terry Lee is offline
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Funny, my local photo hound friend and myself were just discussing this technique this past weekend! VERY cool to see it in action like this. If it were me I'd just pull out a huge piece of film, but I get the whole multishot thing and for what you are doing it makes perfect sense.

I was thinking about building a 12x20 adapter for my big camera to do mammoth wet plates, but I have no way to scan them. The multishot is the only way, so it seems based on your massive success it is very doable!!

The 8x10 with a good lens will easily get that kind of resolving power and then some. I'll dig out and post a sample just to compare. It boils down to the glass, the film can easily handle it.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 07:09 PM
Terry Lee Terry Lee is offline
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Cool found it....did some digging and found this that I use to "show off" 8x10 film with. Should make an interesting comparison.

Here is an 8x10, jpg. Shot this with a good Schneider 300mm lens. Original scan on an Epson 750 @2400dpi (I think) the resulting file is something crazy like 800M pixels... This is of course shrunk to web sized, JPGed and compressed:


Didn't even notice these guys on the ground glass when I captured the image..kinda far away..


Full Zoom crop


I suppose the real advantage to your technique is you are only limited by the number of images you have to make and horsepower to pull it all together...otherwise the sky is the limit..at least that is what we were thinking when talking about making a digital capture of a 12x20 plate?

I think the process you are doing is super cool....funny how we were discussing the exact same thing...really makes me want to build out and try it now too!

Thanks!
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Old May 2nd, 2013, 06:20 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Lee View Post
Cool found it....did some digging and found this that I use to "show off" 8x10 film with. Should make an interesting comparison.

Here is an 8x10, jpg. Shot this with a good Schneider 300mm lens. Original scan on an Epson 750 @2400dpi (I think) the resulting file is something crazy like 800M pixels... This is of course shrunk to web sized, JPGed and compressed:


Didn't even notice these guys on the ground glass when I captured the image..kinda far away..


Full Zoom crop


I suppose the real advantage to your technique is you are only limited by the number of images you have to make and horsepower to pull it all together...otherwise the sky is the limit..at least that is what we were thinking when talking about making a digital capture of a 12x20 plate?

I think the process you are doing is super cool....funny how we were discussing the exact same thing...really makes me want to build out and try it now too!

Thanks!
Hi Terry, I have never shot 8x10 myself... I've only gone up to 4X5 and now, after I sold my Sinar P2 which I have replaced with a Fuji GX680, due to the shrinkage of image area in digital and the much (too much) reduced cost that the GX680 requires than if I had to invest to turn P2 in a multishot capable digital camera with "reduced image circle lenses"! ....So, my opinion on the superiority of the 16x multi-shot image is not tested but it's rather an impression. But let me tell you how this impression has been created... You know about the debates that have appeared in various forums that are comparing the 80mp backs with 8x10 right? Well, the people that have used (I haven't) both an 80mp back and an Imacon 528c (people that own both) have commented on Lula in a past conversation that I was involved, about the multishot back's clear and undeniable superiority in all aspects by quite a margin... they find the 16x to have more than a stop difference in DR, much, much better tonal accuracy and color depth and far more resolution...
As I haven't shot an 80mp back, (Yair of Leaf offered me a chance, but he denied to allow me to compare it with the 528c used in multishot 16x at my studio during March when he was visiting my country, so I denied in return for the "quick test" with no comparison he offered...) what I did was to borrow a P65+ and compare it, the P65+ was no where near the 528c's 16x image... so I said (thought): "surely the 80mp can't be that much better to cover that huge difference that the multishot back was exhibiting" ...and then, "if people compare 8x10 with the 80mp backs, I can't see how any result can be close to multishot 16x which is that much better to a P65+ that even a "blind man" (!!!!) could see".
Surely you don't see 4x the resolution of a 4x5 if you shoot 8x10 do you? ...You only see some improvement, the reason behind that is with the lens resolving ability ...no? I remember that after 2005, I was only shooting 120 film with my P2 because I could save a fortune by using my (brand new at the times) Nikon ED9000, have full control over the result, export Raw from film (!!!!) ...and the difference in quality was not that much either... In fact, I still use some 120 & 220 both on my Fuji and on my Contax... but I have to say, the 16X multishot result, seems extraterrestrial if done correctly to anything I've experienced up to now... To give you an idea, if P65+ provides 60mp, then one would swear that the equal size print from the multishot back is of ....at least 400mp!!! ...not to mention DR and "true color", pity this quality isn't available in single-shot... OTOH with the 8x10 you CAN do single-shot!
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Old May 11th, 2013, 07:14 PM
Terry Lee Terry Lee is offline
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Oh I have no doubt the multishot is the way to do things....I simply love what you have done ;-)

Of course I could pull out a 12x20 negative lol....

We were thinking of building a CNC type unit, with an X/Y stepper motor (There are plenty of plans for DIY CNC machines) that would drive a camera over a flat bed.
Then you could lay your artwork flat, use your techniques and computer control the moving of the camera over the artwork, capture the images off the camera and stitch in realtime...

No doubt, a great lens and lots of overlapping and you could create multi gigapixel replication of an original painting or any other piece of art.....your work proves it.

No for me to get to building it lol....too many projects as it is!

I'm very impressed with what has been done.....very
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