The Artist and the wannabe...

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

With so much talk of ' Art ', I went to a place ( one of many and many ) to see the Artist's work.
To see beyond the mundane..only then can one appreciate the Artist's work, it has been said.

My ' seeing ' is mundane. To me true art resides in the mundane. I had a mundane camera, a mundane mindset, unencumbered by the esoterics of artistic discussions.

I had only my senses to ' see '. My culture and experiences to ' feel '.

I caught a minute glimpse of the Artist's work. Let me share it with you.

We took an otter...came in to land..

we checked in to our hotel.
I went out into the mundane street. Looked around the mundane scene.

Was humbled by the mundane...

Saw what everyone sees. Not the ones with special gifts. We all have those, our senses. That is the beauty
of a true Artist. And His Art. One does not need special ' powers ' to appreciate it. That my friends is Art.

In the mundane. See it as it is.

I walked away an even humbler man.

p.s And He made me even humbler. I posted the incorrect image.

Jerome Marot · Apr 12, 2012

Do I sense some sarcasm in your use of the word "mundane"?

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

Jerome Marot said:
Do I sense some sarcasm in your use of the word "mundane"?

Hi Jerome.

No Jerome. No sarcasm intended in this thread. That you ' sense ' it as such is merely the influence and confluence of various inputs that one in your culture might have been subjected to.

Nothing right or wrong. Just a fact that ' emotions ', ' sense ', ' feeling ' and ' seeing' are intricately bound
with the surrounds and culture and upbringing and exposure to various external and different inputs.

Let me show how ' mundane ' my ' seeing ' is. This one belongs in the ' Flowers by the wayside thread '..

These are by a railroad track. Mundane. People see it almost everyday while passing it by. The railcar passing often sways the petals that they fall off.

This is what I ' see ', here. Birth, Death, Re-birth ( others to take their place ), Beauty, Color, Food, the struggle to survive, the defense mechanism in operation, the successes and failures.

I ' see ' the whole spectrum of creation and creativity on show here.

Truly. nothing special. Just ' mundane '. The scene, the image, the photog.

But a small demonstration of a ' Art ' in all its form by the Artist. IMHO.

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

Something else I ' saw '...the dew, the raindrops, how they cling to vegetation.
I ' see ' the difference in the colors. Look closely. See the ' veins'. I see them on my hand to!!

I ' see' them everyday. Marvel at them. Marvel at the Artist.

Will my ' seeing ' it differently improve on it? The image maybe. But I am talking of the real thing.
Wonder how many other things this ' everyday ' item might be benefiting. Think about all the processes
that are required to sustain and maintain this ' mundane ' item.

We have exited the boundaries of ' visual ' art. We are witnessing Art, not just a part of the whole.

Asher Kelman · Apr 12, 2012

fahim mohammed said:
Something else I ' saw '...the dew, the raindrops, how they cling to vegetation.
I ' see ' the difference in the colors. Look closely. See the ' veins'. I see them on my hand to!!

I ' see' them everyday. Marvel at them. Marvel at the Artist.

Will my ' seeing ' it differently improve on it? The image maybe. But I am talking of the real thing.
Wonder how many other things this ' everyday ' item might be benefiting. Think about all the processes
that are required to sustain and maintain this ' mundane ' item.

Fahim Mohammed: "Witnessing Art"

My dear friends,

Fahim has shown art that goes to our sense of wonder and delight in being present to observe, feel and appreciate.

This is ART and art, art and ART. It can be seen with anyone who opens their eyes and one can see it as the work of The Grand Artist, Him. Ot is it's your perspective, just as wonderful nature we have to conserve for those who come after us.

We're just visitors. Our art is indeed humbled by the mundane of everything around us and we simply cannot compete, but we can be thrilled respectful and inspired, no matter what our beliefs. That's about us, our own inherent worth and value

Asher

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

Asher, thank you for encouraging a different pov.

Regards.

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

Tom dinning said:
What did God say immediately after the Big Bang?

'oops!'

Tom, with the greatest of respects, it did not happen the way you mention. For various scientific reasons too!

My version takes place ways back.. before what you describe might have happened.

And The Lord God said ' BE '.

Now show me the artist and their art. I have shown you what I consider ART.

And this was just the Beginning.

Jerome Marot · Apr 12, 2012

Let me ask you what you mean by "mundane" first. The word can be understood as:

1. of or pertaining to this world or earth as contrasted with heaven; worldly; earthly: mundane affairs.
2. common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative.
3. of or pertaining to the world, universe, or earth.

Depending on the meaning you had in mind, your post takes very different interpretations. Certainly, the simple things of this world are things of beauty, because the world we live in is a miraculous creation. In that sense, there is "art" in "mundane" objects in the sense that there is beauty in natural objects of this world. On the other hand, if one uses the second meaning: ordinary, "mundane" is simply an antonym of "remarkable".

It so happens that I wrote yesterday: "You need to see beyond the mundane to perceive art." When writing that sentence, I had the second meaning of the word "mundane" in mind. Art is, by definition, something out of the ordinary. This is not a judgement of value, simply an acknowledgement that the definition of art implies that the something which is presented as art must be selected.

Could it be that there was a misunderstanding on that particular word?

fahim mohammed · Apr 12, 2012

Jerome, taking my cue from the various threads on ' art ' here at OPF:

I shall leave it to the viewer and the reader to form their own judgements; read and see into the work what they may. Interpret it the way they see fit.

Robert Schillinger · Apr 12, 2012

Comparing photography with music, are we like the recording engineers and producers? And to the extent we set up a shot, are we like songwriters?

Actually that metaphor breaks down quickly as I try to make correlations. But the thing is, there is something "here" that I take an image from and then, after altering it a little or a lot, put that image in front of a pair of eyes "over there". I'm not a musician though, even thought I get to play with some amazing instruments.

Mark Hampton · Apr 12, 2012

fahim mohammed said:
Tom, with the greatest of respects, it did not happen the way you mention. For various scientific reasons too!

My version takes place ways back.. before what you describe might have happened.

And The Lord God said ' BE '.

Now show me the artist and their art. I have shown you what I consider ART.

And this was just the Beginning.

fahim, here I think the space between the images says more than the space image contains. Last time I spoke to god she was not pleased with your derivitive approach to representation. But then again she did create the Tory so does make mistakes.
Cheers

Asher Kelman · Apr 13, 2012

The Supreme artist in most Abrahamic religions is the creator. To others, its nature itself. So there's differences. Well that's no surprise at all. The result of either position has no practical effect here.

Let's celebrate our cultural diversity. After all, no matter where we come from, we have in common a sense of awe that everything works as it does, even to the minutest level. No matter what origin each of us ascribes to what we stand before, it's splendid and wonderful.

Fahim travels widely and doesn't require anyone he meets to share his faith, but just his friendship. The point is that we have so much in common, including our value of nature and the worth of each human being. So, the extent to which our ideas of a supreme being differ, shouldn't, in itself, be a hinderance to being both respectful and agreeable partners in enjoying, celebrating and protecting what we have in common.

Enough preaching from me. "Here endeth the lesson!"

Asher

Robert Schillinger · Apr 13, 2012

Asher Kelman said:
The Supreme artist in most Abrahamic religions is the creator. To others, its nature itself. So there's differences. Well that's no surprise at all. The result of either position has no practical effect here.

Let's celebrate our cultural diversity. After all, no matter where we come from, we have in common a sense of awe that everything works as it does, even to the minutest level. No matter what origin each of us ascribes to what we stand before, it's splendid and wonderful.

Fahim travels widely and doesn't require anyone he meets to share his faith, but just his friendship. The point is that we have so much in common, including our value of nature and the worth of each human being. So, the extent to which our ideas of a supreme being differ, shouldn't, in itself, be a hinderance to being both respectful and agreeable partners in enjoying, celebrating and protecting what we have in common.

Enough preaching from me. "Here endeth the lesson!"

Asher

Carl Sagan pointed out that: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

None of us here folded the earth to make mountains and valleys nor did we put the genes together to make the plants and animals including humans. Whether we believe these came about through the craftsmanship of some divine being, natural processes alone, or anywhere in between; there is still a very limited amount of credit we can take for the images we produce.

Asher Kelman · Apr 13, 2012

Robert Schillinger said:
Carl Sagan pointed out that: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

None of us here folded the earth to make mountains and valleys nor did we put the genes together to make the plants and animals including humans. Whether we believe these came about through the craftsmanship of some divine being, natural processes alone, or anywhere in between; there is still a very limited amount of credit we can take for the images we produce.

Robert,

So imagine what we ourselves cannot know right now!

Asher

Robert Schillinger · Apr 13, 2012

Asher Kelman said:
Robert,

So imagine what we ourselves cannot know right now!

Asher

That's rather a tall order!!!

I am in awe of the situation of being alive in the universe, especially at this time in history when so many discoveries are being made so rapidly. Also I am at times astonished by the way the dewdrop hangs on a vine or the way a woman brushes aside her hair.

I have strong opinions about religion and some of its followers. At times I'll argue them at length, passionately, robustly -sometimes just a hair's breadth away from personal attack when I get my blood pressure up. (sometimes it is a good idea to take a deep breath and lean back in the chair for a minute or two before posting) But here is not where I feel like doing so. Here I am going to be finding common ground as much as possible because this is the place I've come to try to grow in this photography thing I've found myself spending so much time doing.

fahim mohammed · Apr 13, 2012

Talking to ' she gods ' and drinking of/from their water does not necessarlly lead to art. It might satisfy other latent desires; but neither art nor an appreciation of it.

Neither is it necessary to resort to contorted manipulation of the mundane natural objects to recognize the art inherent in them. This form of ' shock and awe art ' is invariably used by those that are desirous of ' look at me. I am different '. The mantra ' see differently ' is a tired one. Different, yes. Artist, no.

Real Art ( imho ) has the power to educate, enrich, enthrall, inspire again and again..ad infinitum. The power to captivate and engender emotional responses irrespective of cultural and/or belief
barriers. That which appeals to the commanality of the human species. That which serves a grander purpose than simply hanging flacid in an art gallery.That which requires no formal education or servitude at a temple's altar to appreciate.

So what do I think is needed to appreciate the common things around oneself..the ability to pause and observe.

Better by far than all the regurgitation about art...and talking to ' she gods '.

Seeing an artist's work speaks volumes about the artist.
I watched a butterfly the other day in my flower bed. But that is another story.

Asher Kelman · Apr 13, 2012

fahim mohammed said:
[/center]

Fahim Mohammed said:

Real Art ( imho ) has the power to educate, enrich, enthrall, inspire again and again..ad infinitum. The power to captivate and engender emotional responses irrespective of cultural and/or belief
barriers. That which appeals to the commanality of the human species. That which serves a grander purpose than simply hanging flacid in an art gallery.That which requires no formal education or servitude at a temple's altar to appreciate.

So what do I think is needed to appreciate the common things around oneself..the ability to pause and observe......

Seeing an artist's work speaks volumes about the artist.
I watched a butterfly the other day in my flower bed. But that is another story.

Click to expand...

Your view is commanding and interesting. But there are other, (albeit lesser, but mortal), artists too. Their ways of expression that are worthy of attention, affection, praise and treasuring.

Asher

Asher Kelman · Apr 13, 2012

fahim mohammed said:
So what do I think is needed to appreciate the common things around oneself..the ability to pause and observe.

So why alter an image in photoshop and use filters? Because we like to be artists too!

Asher

fahim mohammed · Apr 13, 2012

Asher Kelman said:
fahim mohammed said:

[/center]

Your view is commanding and interesting. But there are other, (albeit lesser, but mortal), artists too. Their ways of expression that are worthy of attention, affection, praise and treasuring.

Asher

Click to expand...

Asher, I too value differing forms of expression. They indeed are deserving of our attention, praise and affection and encouragement, if merited.

But not at the expense of denigrating those that hold that there are other forms of Art and an Artist from Whose Work we all derive our inspirations. Agreement, in this regard, is not being sought. But neither shall
an air of ' superior/wiser than thou ' go unchallenged.

fahim mohammed · Apr 13, 2012

Asher Kelman said:
So why alter an image in photoshop and use filters? Because we like to be artists too!

Asher

Because, my friend, even the mere act of observation effects the outcome/result. Indeed we too want to be artists. The wannabes, as the title of this thread states.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon that during moments of delusions of grandeur some even want to be gods..not content with being mere derivative artists.

Tom dinning · Apr 13, 2012

WARNING! This message contains more than mild sarcasm.

After reading this most enlightening thread I grabbed the camera and begun taking photos of all that abounds in my humble home. Christine passed through and I captured her preparing for work.
'What are you doing?' she inquired.
'Taking photos of the mundane' I replied confidently, having absorbing Fahim's words of wisdom with gusto.
Fahim, you owe me one. It took a good hour to recover my dignity and equally as long to clear the toilet of my beloved D3.

All jokes aside, though. I agree with the sentiment here. I think we should look more deeply at what it is we do and who we do it for. Why, only last week I took my car to to be serviced by my friendly neighbourhood mechanic and while he was changing the oil or whatever he does while laying on his back under my car, I thought I would enlighten him on some basic organic chemistry, a little about oxidation, a chapter and verse on fluid flow and a quick rendition on the Laws of Thermodynamics just so he might do his job better.
Now, I know he was listening because he went very quiet. Usually he's happy to talk on oil types, rust, brake pads and all that mundane stuff but on that day he never said a word. He also seemed to be quite fascinated because he stayed under the car for what seemed an eternity. Funny thing, though. He said I wouldn't need another service on the car for another 3 years and by that time he would have moved to Outer Mongolia to care for horses and I should consider looking for another mechanic in the mean time.

My classes start in 2 weeks time. How excited I am to be able to introduce this new concept, brought to light by such astute people. My students will be enthralled.
'Forget the technique,' I'll cry from the pulpit. 'Cancel your subscriptions to Better Photography'. Throw away your megapixels and fancy glass. Ignore everything I said about Form, structure, composition, tone and contrast last term. Just point the camera and press. God will take care of the rest. Beauty abounds and you can't go wrong. Its already Art. All you need to do is take a picture of it; even a bad one. It's not the photo we are concerned about any more; its the Creation of our Universe. Forget any attempt at free thought and expression. Its all been done for you. Why, its all been there just waiting for the camera to be invented.'
What a revelation.
I would like to thank all the members who contributed to this thread, including any who were deleted, for pointing out so succinctly, that I have been wasting my time all these years
Cheers
Tom

Jerome Marot · Apr 14, 2012

Tom dinning said:
WARNING! This message contains more than mild sarcasm.

And what is the point of that sarcasm, if I may ask?

Interestingly, I found that you wrote:

My camera is an instrument of record. It remembers what I see, more in the clarity of detail than my personal memory. The camera has become an extention of my skills that include writing (poorly and desperately), speaking (somewhat coherently), listening (less so as I grow older). The camera holds no special powers. Nor does it maintains a unique place in my life. Photography isn't something I depend on or need for my existence. Sometimes it helps me concentrate on a particular object or scene, to find the elements that go together and complete the story. Other times photography gives my thoughts a place to go, to solve a problem or to translate what I think into something literal. Photography also provides me with something to do when I'm idle. Some people do cross words or run or read a book or paint. I take pictures.

If your camera is "an instrument of record", why the sarcasm when someone writes about recording reality?

You teach photo classes. Interestingly, you published some of your presentations. Here about what makes a good photograph. The conclusion at the end of the video is that the most important quality of the photographer is enthusiasm. Why the sarcasm, then? Sarcasm is the most efficient way to kill enthusiasm.

Are you the person you wrote: Stand on any corner of any boulevard with a camera and the simplicity of life will reveal itself. At that moment the simple action of seeing and recording a fragment of the world through the lens of a camera is as unique and profound as it comes (end of the link)? Isn't that exactly what Fahim is doing?

It is sad really. When I read what you wrote in your blogs, I see someone who agrees with most of what is posted here. Nobody wrote that art is just pointing a camera aimlessly at the world. Actually, the only person who has done that on this forum is you (and with some success I would say). We are all aiming at the same target: show something interesting in the little frame allowed by the photograph. Show somebody else what we have seen. And due to the medium, all we have is a frame to put things within and leave other things outside. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tom dinning · Apr 14, 2012

Jerome Marot said:
And what is the point of that sarcasm, if I may ask?

Interestingly, I found that you wrote:

My camera is an instrument of record. It remembers what I see, more in the clarity of detail than my personal memory. The camera has become an extention of my skills that include writing (poorly and desperately), speaking (somewhat coherently), listening (less so as I grow older). The camera holds no special powers. Nor does it maintains a unique place in my life. Photography isn't something I depend on or need for my existence. Sometimes it helps me concentrate on a particular object or scene, to find the elements that go together and complete the story. Other times photography gives my thoughts a place to go, to solve a problem or to translate what I think into something literal. Photography also provides me with something to do when I'm idle. Some people do cross words or run or read a book or paint. I take pictures.

If your camera is "an instrument of record", why the sarcasm when someone writes about recording reality?

You teach photo classes. Interestingly, you published some of your presentations. Here about what makes a good photograph. The conclusion at the end of the video is that the most important quality of the photographer is enthusiasm. Why the sarcasm, then? Sarcasm is the most efficient way to kill enthusiasm.

Are you the person you wrote: Stand on any corner of any boulevard with a camera and the simplicity of life will reveal itself. At that moment the simple action of seeing and recording a fragment of the world through the lens of a camera is as unique and profound as it comes (end of the link)? Isn't that exactly what Fahim is doing?

It is sad really. When I read what you wrote in your blogs, I see someone who agrees with most of what is posted here. Nobody wrote that art is just pointing a camera aimlessly at the world. Actually, the only person who has done that on this forum is you (and with some success I would say). We are all aiming at the same target: show something interesting in the little frame allowed by the photograph. Show somebody else what we have seen. And due to the medium, all we have is a frame to put things within and leave other things outside. Nothing more, nothing less.

You have been thorough, Jerome. Even I haven't read my stuff that well. Thanks for reminding me of what I said. It helps at my age.
I though it might have got a laugh but obviously I missed the target. Next time I'll be more succinct. For some, clarity can be lost in the interpretation of sarcasm.
To be downright blunt, just in case you missed the point again, can you tell me what the **** god has to do with all this, which, I believe, was fahim's original point, vaguely supported by Asher and others.
Isn't it at all possible we can have an open forum on photography without disturbing the peace with such nonsense and if it is to be mentioned, those that oppose, deny, reject or just don't give a toss are just as entitled to stick their collective or singular nose in and have a say?
I agree with all the things you have suggested about my inconsistencies, mind changing, contradictions and downright pigheadedness. That's the beauty of an open mind. I can change it at will and I don't have to ask anyones permission or seek approval. Why, tomorrow I might even wake up and believe in a god or Santa or the Easter bunny. So there's not much point in quoting me from the past. For all you might know I might have had a sex change operation, converted to Catholicism, taken up roots in a monastery in Tennant Creek and recruited an army of Congolese to assist with the take over of the National Library of The Outer Hebradese.
Your approach to my first comment in this threat was a credit to you. Full of quotes, logic and overall, well argued. My problem is why would you go to so much trouble when the whole premise of this thread is, to say the least, suffering from logical corrosion with the introduction of a faith ridden concept.
I reckon that anyone who presents their faith as a premise for any occurrence is fair game.

I look forward to crossing swords with you again, Jerome. Then again, I might just change my mind and go read a good book I just acquired from the Hebradese
Cheers
Tom

Mark Hampton · Apr 14, 2012

fahim mohammed said:
Talking to ' she gods ' and drinking of/from their water does not necessarlly lead to art. It might satisfy other latent desires; but neither art nor an appreciation of it.

Neither is it necessary to resort to contorted manipulation of the mundane natural objects to recognize the art inherent in them. This form of ' shock and awe art ' is invariably used by those that are desirous of ' look at me. I am different '. The mantra ' see differently ' is a tired one. Different, yes. Artist, no.

Real Art ( imho ) has the power to educate, enrich, enthrall, inspire again and again..ad infinitum. The power to captivate and engender emotional responses irrespective of cultural and/or belief
barriers. That which appeals to the commanality of the human species. That which serves a grander purpose than simply hanging flacid in an art gallery.That which requires no formal education or servitude at a temple's altar to appreciate.

So what do I think is needed to appreciate the common things around oneself..the ability to pause and observe.

Better by far than all the regurgitation about art...and talking to ' she gods '.

Fahim,

as you do not believe in Her could you please refrain from mentioning Her - it is an insult to those of us that believe and offensive in the extreme.

having spoken to Her at some length I can now confer some Truths from her lips to you and others that read here.

"Neither is it necessary to resort to contorted manipulation of the mundane natural objects to recognize the art inherent in them." F.M

She recognises this in your work and thinks you should not be so hard on yourself if you paused and thought for a while about what your doing you will get there.

She is merciful.

She was interested in your ideas about Art - and Real Art but she feels you maybe should do some reading as She has given you access to the WWW She provided me with some words for you to search;

Marxism

Deconstruction

and her own favourite son Nietzsche

she understands you have some understanding of these terms and ideas but wishes you to embrace the study further. I am not allowed to read about such things - She keeps directing me to this site and porn sites - so if you can explain what Shes on about I feel it would be of great benefit to me.

when or if you do this or reply please I ask you again to refrain from directing any responses to Her as it will be deeply insulting to Her and my beliefs.

she asked me to leave you with an image to think about -

a thousand years - D Hirst.

cheers !

Mark Hampton · Apr 14, 2012

Tom dinning said:
WARNING! This message contains more than mild sarcasm.

After reading this most enlightening thread I grabbed the camera and begun taking photos of all that abounds in my humble home. Christine passed through and I captured her preparing for work.
'What are you doing?' she inquired.
'Taking photos of the mundane' I replied confidently, having absorbing Fahim's words of wisdom with gusto.
Fahim, you owe me one. It took a good hour to recover my dignity and equally as long to clear the toilet of my beloved D3.

All jokes aside, though. I agree with the sentiment here. I think we should look more deeply at what it is we do and who we do it for. Why, only last week I took my car to to be serviced by my friendly neighbourhood mechanic and while he was changing the oil or whatever he does while laying on his back under my car, I thought I would enlighten him on some basic organic chemistry, a little about oxidation, a chapter and verse on fluid flow and a quick rendition on the Laws of Thermodynamics just so he might do his job better.
Now, I know he was listening because he went very quiet. Usually he's happy to talk on oil types, rust, brake pads and all that mundane stuff but on that day he never said a word. He also seemed to be quite fascinated because he stayed under the car for what seemed an eternity. Funny thing, though. He said I wouldn't need another service on the car for another 3 years and by that time he would have moved to Outer Mongolia to care for horses and I should consider looking for another mechanic in the mean time.

My classes start in 2 weeks time. How excited I am to be able to introduce this new concept, brought to light by such astute people. My students will be enthralled.
'Forget the technique,' I'll cry from the pulpit. 'Cancel your subscriptions to Better Photography'. Throw away your megapixels and fancy glass. Ignore everything I said about Form, structure, composition, tone and contrast last term. Just point the camera and press. God will take care of the rest. Beauty abounds and you can't go wrong. Its already Art. All you need to do is take a picture of it; even a bad one. It's not the photo we are concerned about any more; its the Creation of our Universe. Forget any attempt at free thought and expression. Its all been done for you. Why, its all been there just waiting for the camera to be invented.'
What a revelation.
I would like to thank all the members who contributed to this thread, including any who were deleted, for pointing out so succinctly, that I have been wasting my time all these years
Cheers
Tom

Tom,

Please dont come to scotland and talk to Joiners - I prefer wood to be worked when they make things with them. Oh and don't you dare visit a distillery as i cant drink barley.

cheers

Jerome Marot · Apr 14, 2012

Tom dinning said:
Isn't it at all possible we can have an open forum on photography without disturbing the peace with such nonsense and if it is to be mentioned, those that oppose, deny, reject or just don't give a toss are just as entitled to stick their collective or singular nose in and have a say?

It is possible to have an open forum on photography without mentioning religion, yes. If religion is mentioned, it is possible for the ones who disagree to answer. But you did not answer my question: why the sarcasm?

You are an intelligent man. I am sure that you realize what to do to get the kind of forum you want.

Tom dinning · Apr 14, 2012

Jerome Marot said:
It is possible to have an open forum on photography without mentioning religion, yes. If religion is mentioned, it is possible for the ones who disagree to answer. But you did not answer my question: why the sarcasm?

You are an intelligent man. I am sure that you realize what to do to get the kind of forum you want.

Why not the sarcasm, Jerome? One must hold a mirror to any face they see and bare the reflection wisely. Surely sarcasm is an appropriate way of dealing with dogma. Both are confusing. Both have a sense of irony. Both are somewhat believable or not. Neither is the truth. Either is acceptable.
You have no proof whatsoever that I am an intelligent person. Don't assume I am so that I might agree with you on matters pertaining. An unintelligent and gullible person may just as easily agree with you - or not.
If that was a sarcastic remark suggesting I go elsewhere, then so be it.
My bed and a good book awaits.
Goodnight, Jerome. Sleep well.
Tom.

Jerome Marot · Apr 14, 2012

Tom dinning said:
You have no proof whatsoever that I am an intelligent person.

I've read what you wrote, remember?

Tom dinning said:
If that was a sarcastic remark suggesting I go elsewhere

It was not.

Tom dinning said:
Goodnight, Jerome. Sleep well.

We live on opposite sides of the planet, so I will sleep later, but thank you for the wishes nevertheless.

Asher Kelman · Apr 14, 2012

Just as the small frame of a camera captures what it sees and excludes everything else, so our arguments here are samplings of our cultures, education and humor. That's actually interesting to me. The traveler in awe of snow-capped majestic mountains hails from a desert kingdom. The man who's the most logical and exact come from the only place in Europe that's honest and accountable about it's past, (and leads Europe in responsibility for work, thrift, generosity and confidence in the future). The fellow who's sarcastic about dogma walks upside down! It's a paradoxical balance, but that's what the world of man is and will always be.

Asher

Asher Kelman · Apr 14, 2012

This thread from the outset deals with the challenges we have in discerning our origins. It reveals our disparate views are strongly held like the crucifix of Joan of Arc clasped even as flames entered and consumed her flesh. The Artist v our art is being moved to the one place for OPF content that some could find offensive or out of place in a photography forum.

Without relevant pictures, such potentially explosive discussions of religion or politics do not belong anywhere in OPF and would have been already been closed. Still, I find nothing offensive in what has been written. It only touches the surface of far stronger feelings we each hold. The good thing is that the ideas are based on photographs and are expressed in ways, that while are testing, are not out if line. ADK

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Well-known member

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief