Holding back posting pictures or commenting? If so why?

We make pictures and then come to share with others. This can be a scary thing. How do we present it? Must the picture be perfect? Are we going to get treated well?

If you put it in the wrong forum, don't worry, we'll move it to where it can be best discussed. Post one picture at a time or up to 4 if they have a theme and style in common. When it is fun sharing, use Layback Cafe and we know it's not for serious critique or ideas.

I want to encourage everyone to post and comment on each other's pictures. Just state what the context is and where you are up to in the path to finishing it.

We will treat you with care and respect. OPF is committed to be nurture your work from good to great and from great to outstanding. To do this, we must feel safe to share.

Critique:

1. Always state the good points first, but be honest. Don't flatter as that cannot translate into success or sales for the photographer.
   
   
2. Give your emotional reaction to the image. What feelings and ideas are invoked? If you have more particular knowledge, then add that now.
   
   
3. After this, you might now add any negative points that trouble the image. One must always respect the photographer.

How do you feel about this?

Asher

Following your suggestions, here's a by-product of a assignement.
Feel free to comment.

Asher Kelman said:

....
Critique:

1. Always state the good points first, but be honest. Don't flatter as that cannot translate into success or sales for the photographer.
2. Give your emotional reaction to the image. What feelings and ideas are invoked? If you have more particular knowledge, then add that now.
3. After this, you might now add any negative points that trouble the image. One must always respect the photographer.

How do you feel about this?

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

I agree with these three points fully, thanks for writing them down. On top of that, at the risk of repeating things, I'd like to remind ourselves that we've agreed upon the convention in previous discussions that the OP should state his/her purpose clearly when he/she posts an image here. I personally do not react when an image is posted without any explanation by the OP, such as the one above by Michael. So Michael, please tell us a bit more about the assignment, the purpose of the picture, how it was taken, what kind of C&C you are seeking, etc .

Cheers,

Good place for pictures, the Layback Cafe!

here´s one of my favourites - taken some 30years ago with a Polaroid SX70:



I named it "the young photographer" . .

best, Klaus

> the OP should state his/her purpose clearly when he/she posts an image here.<

Cem, oh, I wasn't aware of that.

This shot is taken during one of the funniest assignements, I ever had. I was sent into a parth of the old harbour, as a company wanted to buy it, and they told me, to shoot anything that I found interesting, in term sof buildings, crane's, rails, etc. That's all they told me, plus they wanted 100 - 120 shots within a week.

So I took the badge, went to the harbour and shoot for 3, 4 days, good fun.
In the evenings they were selected and converted.

This shot hadn't to do directly with the assignement, as it shows the "wrong side" of the harbour; therefore "a by-product" and the client never see it. I used the opportunity, as usually one can not enter into that aerea, to shoot some "privat" picts, without any thoughts, like John Doe, just because I liked the scenery. Its was handheld, with a 10 D; it reapeared this morning, when voiding the archive, as a webjpg; it was taken some 3 years ago, and I had forgotten about its existence.

Well, now its up to you.

PS: How comes the rule of images beeing commented? I personally think, images have a own language, and its rather interesting for the photographer, to learn, what other people think , when they just look at it, without any text.

Hi Michael,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe you have asked a number of very interesting questions, although it is a statement, I guess, in your picture and follow up post.

I am happy to go into it, in very fine detail, (almost to the pixel level, allegorically speaking) but it could then turn into a personal blog, and may prove rather tiresome, (and that would only be concerned with why I do not respond, and not necessarily why others do not - their reasons may, or may not be similar.) At the end of that, then I could comment on the photo itself. But that would be pointless, since everybody would have left ages before then. It's much easier to say 'nice photo, what lens'.

But, the offer is here, if you wish.

Best wishes,

Ray

Michael Fontana said:

> the OP should state his/her purpose clearly when he/she posts an image here.<

Cem, oh, I wasn't aware of that.

This shot is taken during one of the funniest assignements, I ever had. I was sent into a parth of the old harbour, as a company wanted to buy it, and they told me, to shoot anything that I found interesting, in term sof buildings, crane's, rails, etc. That's all they told me, plus they wanted 100 - 120 shots within a week.

So I took the badge, went to the harbour and shoot for 3, 4 days, good fun.
In the evenings they were selected and converted.

This shot hadn't to do directly with the assignement, as it shows the "wrong side" of the harbour; therefore "a by-product" and the client never see it. I used the opportunity, as usually one can not enter into that aerea, to shoot some "privat" picts, without any thoughts, like John Doe, just because I liked the scenery. Its was handheld, with a 10 D; it reapeared this morning, when voiding the archive, as a webjpg; it was taken some 3 years ago, and I had forgotten about its existence.

Well, now its up to you.

PS: How comes the rule of images beeing commented? I personally think, images have a own language, and its rather interesting for the photographer, to learn, what other people think , when they just look at it, without any text.

Click to expand...

Just to address "the rule of images being commented on" let me clarify.

Sometimes the picture speaks for itslef. Sometimes a title is all that's need to direct meaning as you wish to the viewer.

Other pictures represent effort for which people really want feedback. When pictures are not responded to and discussed, posters feel they are ignored. Also for everyone else, we'd like to know the spectrum of reactions, feelings and ideas since that is the language we are speaking in.

A picture may really be impressive to you with your trained eye but others might need guidance to understand your style. That might come from others comments.

When we posted the work of Rainer, a few photographers needed to be introduced to the possibility and open to slow-shutter photography. Then when people got it, we had a great interest and further really interesting slow-shutter contributions.

So, in general discussing helps everyone.

However, if one posts in Layback cafe a personal snapshot, that is taken to be more casual and there are no expectations.

We assume that unless otherwise stated pictures posted are for comment and critique. However, one can always state otherwise. Then, as you suggest, can just sit back and enjoy!

Asher

Michael Fontana said:

PS: How comes the rule of images beeing commented? I personally think, images have a own language, and its rather interesting for the photographer, to learn, what other people think , when they just look at it, without any text.

Click to expand...

I agree with this completely Michael. Why does an image need a thesis describing everything but the colour of your shoe laces when posted in a forum. Is it not the most simple thing in the world to look at an image and comment on what you see? Everybody has their opinion and it's quite obvious why an image is posted - for critique.

Theo Wallis said:

I agree with this completely Michael. Why does an image need a thesis describing everything but the colour of your shoe laces when posted in a forum. Is it not the most simple thing in the world to look at an image and comment on what you see? Everybody has their opinion and it's quite obvious why an image is posted - for critique.

Click to expand...

Of course Michael is correct. In a gallery or at home, I just let the picture do its work. There's no PH.D. thesis needed, just the picture.

The point here is that some pictures get orphaned! We could say "too bad". I'm offering that if it moves you or one useful ideas about it, then share that, from time to time.

I enjoy and learn by seeing great pictures and also exploring why some efforts fall short while others blow us away.

I learn from both.

Asher

Sorry for not replying earlier since I was on a business trip to Denmark for three days, just came back home.

Michael, from your response, and from Theo's as wel, I get the feeling that I have not made myself clear enough when I wrote:

...the OP should state his/her purpose clearly when he/she posts an image here. I personally do not react when an image is posted without any explanation by the OP, such as the one above by Michael. So Michael, please tell us a bit more about the assignment, the purpose of the picture, how it was taken, what kind of C&C you are seeking, etc .

Click to expand...

The most important element of this statement was (and is): the purpose of why one is posting an image here for C&C.

Michael Fontana said:

..This shot is taken during one of the funniest assignements, I ever had. I was sent into a parth of the old harbour, as a company wanted to buy it, and they told me, to shoot anything that I found interesting, in term sof buildings, crane's, rails, etc. That's all they told me, plus they wanted 100 - 120 shots within a week.

So I took the badge, went to the harbour and shoot for 3, 4 days, good fun.
In the evenings they were selected and converted.

This shot hadn't to do directly with the assignement, as it shows the "wrong side" of the harbour; therefore "a by-product" and the client never see it. I used the opportunity, as usually one can not enter into that aerea, to shoot some "privat" picts, without any thoughts, like John Doe, just because I liked the scenery. Its was handheld, with a 10 D; it reapeared this morning, when voiding the archive, as a webjpg; it was taken some 3 years ago, and I had forgotten about its existence. ..

Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for sharing this background information. In this particular case, it gives me some idea about how and possibly why you've taken this picture. But the most important piece of information I was seeking is still missing. I don't know yet why you have decided to post this image here. Are you seeking technical C&C? In that case, I would ask you to provide some more info about the how, such as equipment used, etc. Are you trying to find out if the image invokes certain emotions in the lookers? If so, you could state that and ask us. Are you trying to convey a particular message and are not sure whether this is the right way of doing it? Ask that. Are you just sharing the image because you like it and you wanted to share it with us for our enjoyment? Just state that as your purpose. All these purposes would elicit different reactions from us. Without knowing the purpose of the OP, I don't bother to reply since anything I would then reply with would be inappropriate.

Michael Fontana said:

...PS: How comes the rule of images beeing commented? I personally think, images have a own language, and its rather interesting for the photographer, to learn, what other people think , when they just look at it, without any text.

Click to expand...

Hopefully, my reaction above has made it clear why I personally would like to have a purpose statement from the OP when an image is submitted for C&C. It is not an obligation to do so, however. You can choose just to share an image and specify that C&C is not sought at all. What will then happen is that a looker like myself will either see it and promptly ignore it since it evokes no particular emotions in the looker or be touched by the image so much that he/she will decide to share his/her feelings with the artist. This is what usually happens if one of your images gets published somewhere or is shown in a gallery. You will be lucky if you get any reactions to it, and hopefully positive ones too.

Theo Wallis said:

I agree with this completely Michael. Why does an image need a thesis describing everything but the colour of your shoe laces when posted in a forum. Is it not the most simple thing in the world to look at an image and comment on what you see?

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with this at all as I've explaied (or tried to explain) above. But there are literally millions of images we daily see that fall into that category. Images printed in the papers, magazines, billboards, live images of the world around us, television images, etc. On top of that, there are al those web sites such as smugmug or pbase where one can find zillions of such images. Do I then take the time to stop and evaluate them, let alone respond to them actively? No, of course not. I sincerely hope you don't either. To me, there is a definitive difference between sites such as pbase and OPF. If I had nothing else to do with my actually very scarce personal time, I might visit pbase looking for random images in order to comment on them such as "I like that", "Wow", "great" or "this sucks dude", etc. But I don't.

Theo Wallis said:

Everybody has their opinion and it's quite obvious why an image is posted - for critique.

Click to expand...

Here on OPF, we assume that an image is posted for C&C by default, unless otherwise stated. So you are right. And that is exacly the reason that I wanted to remind those who post for C&C the fact that they should be specific with regards to the reasons why they seek C&C.

Asher Kelman said:

Of course Michael is correct. In a gallery or at home, I just let the picture do its work. There's no PH.D. thesis needed, just the picture.

The point here is that some pictures get orphaned! We could say "too bad". I'm offering that if it moves you or one useful ideas about it, then share that, from time to time.

I enjoy and learn by seeing great pictures and also exploring why some efforts fall short while others blow us away.

I learn from both.

Asher

Click to expand...

By now, it should be clear that my mind set is rather similar to Asher's.

At home, I have a collection of images from the past 35 years. About 50,000 in total, and the growth rate is about 500 a month now that I am shooting digital as well as film. I am an amateur photographer, so the majority of my images would not be worth sharing with the outside world. Every once in a while, I get lucky and end up shooting some interesting pictures. For those, I might want to get expert C&C in order to learn and improve in the future. Some of those lucky ones I have already posted for C&C here at OPF. To me, this is the added value of OPF; getting serious and informative advice from others.

If we would get a more and more images posted here at OPF without a particular purpose statement as to why they are posted, I would not like that since it would undermine the value of OPF to me greatly. As a matter of fact, I actually think that this has been happening quite a lot recently. That is why I neglect posts seeking C&C inherently (i.e. not explicitly). It would be a shame if the day comes when the added value of asking for and receiving serious C&C would diminish so much that I'd decide to leave OPF :-((.

PS: All I have written here are my own ideas and I'm responsible for them.

Regards,

How free is free

Cem has said it, exactly , but there are other issues in commenting in public. An assumption is made that the poster's background is the same as the commentators. There is too much ownership. If you really want to know why with 3000 or so subscribers, most do not take part, then you have to do some serious study, _or_ you can say, 'that's the way it is, its about average, average is good enough.' (I do not want to divert from this thread, but unfortunately if an analogy is used, we tend to go off on that, instead of the real thread. I think that is because the analogy is an easy example. to explain a principle, say, and as it is easier, we usually take the line of least resistance.)

To get back to Michael's photo, on first seeing it, my thoughts were 'so what? a dock, what's of interest in this dock to me?', answer - 'nothing'.
'What is being asked of me?', answer - 'nothing, and I have other things to do.'

On reading the background he later gave, my thoughts are, 'ah, I know the feeling, I have the T shirt, it explains why the photo is so bad - what does he want me to do with it - what does he really want to do with it?' No clues there.

Now, if he had said, 'do you think this could be turned into a sunset scene, with some heavy photoshopping?' or whatever, we would be able to focus, and he would get a number of replies.

One of those replies could have been, 'use a colour filter', another could have been, 'go out at sunset', which do not answer the question, but they could be good answers if we did not have the other access information, and we ignored the 'photoshopping' request.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Go back through some threads, see where the photos are commented, see where the comments are useful and focussed, see who comments.

Here, in opf, you have your name on everything you say, every image you post. If you get no comments, then you have to accept that of those who saw it, of those who were happy to post, of those very few people, they actually had 'no comment'.

Best wishes,

Ray

Now, putting on a nice polite hat, I will borrow Asher's, but its not quite my style, but I'll try and make it fit....

'The image is sharp, I like the reflection in the windows of the bridge. Its a pity you can't go back again, and retake it, perhaps in the golden hours. Maybe you could photoshop some clouds, get some contrast going. If you have enough detail, then try various severe crops, perhaps a pano of the bridge and reflection, or a silhouette of the cranes, maybe the stern of the cargo ship. Can you do something with the water?'

Maybe worth doing for some folk, others may just take the next one from the digital stack, maybe they don't/can't pp, assumptions have to be made. Give feedback on the comments, even if its just 'thanks'. Hence if you want detailed replies, you need a dialogue to start. Maybe pm someone you sort of know, ask them to comment, to get the ball rolling. Most people want to help, but they don't know how, are frightened of being rebuffed or thought to be an idiot, of causing offence, being themselves criticised, or whatever. This can be talked out, there are pm's. Moderators can soft delete, rarely happens (er well, it did - to me) but come for a swim in Asher's pool, we got lifeguards, a shallow end, flumes, etc., but please don't piss in the water, and if we don't see you, you may be drowning, or I suppose you could be swimming very strongly, underwater. ;-)

Let's have some fun.

Ofcourse it's nice to know about a picture and the circumstances under which it was taken but personally I would much rather comment on the image alone and only afterwards find out about it's "circumstances". (for want of a better word)

In that way I think one can give a totaly unbiased account of how the picture makes you feel etc. etc.

Theo Wallis said:

Ofcourse it's nice to know about a picture and the circumstances under which it was taken but personally I would much rather comment on the image alone and only afterwards find out about it's "circumstances". (for want of a better word)

In that way I think one can give a totaly unbiased account of how the picture makes you feel etc. etc.

Click to expand...

Hi Theo,

Again, I agree with your statement within its own context, if that context would be for instance visiting a gallery (or pbase or smugmug or whatever). Feel free to know as little as possible about an image beforehand so that it does not impair your personal judgement.

However, this is not what I have argued against at all. I accepted that my initial reaction might have been misunderstood and tried explaining myself using other words, see below:

Cem Usakligil said:

..Michael, from your response, and from Theo's as wel, I get the feeling that I have not made myself clear enough when I wrote:

The most important element of this statement was (and is): the purpose of why one is posting an image here for C&C.
...

Click to expand...

As you see, I am arguing that we need to know the why, having how along with it would be an extra bonus.

Kind regards,

Theo Wallis said:

Of course it's nice to know about a picture and the circumstances under which it was taken but personally I would much rather comment on the image alone and only afterwards find out about it's "circumstances". (for want of a better word)

In that way I think one can give a totally unbiased account of how the picture makes you feel etc. etc.

Click to expand...

Hi Theo,

What you say seems right, but it's not sufficient for a wider purpose. We're here for fun, relaxation, exchanging experience, problem solving, mutual support and hopefully a way of honing one's senses. In the latter endeaver we share pictures. Two broad categories can be considered:

A. the picture is just documenting what is shown and "is what it is". More often, even the simplest snaps shots or boring records carry more than what is immediately recognizable. That is where art is distinguished from documentary recording. Documentation images may vary from artless and mundane to interesting, technically perfect and wonderful postcards and billboards.

C. A photograph can represent so much more. It can have inside it the very ideas and feelings of the photographer. But what is it that is being said of all that could be said? Sometimes we need to narrow things down. We are helped by a title. That puts our attention to the limited path that the photographer creates. Context, purpose and other ideas help the viewer create their own unique but informed universe in that photograph.

So sure, we can just sit back and enjoy the picture, but a lot of us just might not get it! Also some photographs have a job to perform for some purpose and some industry. So whether for art or a client, the picture needs to be presented in order for us to get and give the most help.

Asher

Sorry for coming back late,

I would like to make some comments, why I posted it.

In a few years, this harbour will not exist anymore (inside the town), the shot is a documentation, how its been for several hundert years, but this will change.

Panta rhei; is that image transporting something like " the autumn of a harbour"?
This question was actually my reason for not telling more about the picture.

Edit: Does it "smells" past? Has it that expression? Maybe I should go back and try different expressions - out of the same RAW? End edit

The box at the rights side is one of these crane's cabine - as visible in the background, too; the shot was taken from the small plattform, outside the cabin.

And yes, it's a orphanend one, in the good sense of the word, and it went back. Sort of a flash, going back for 3 - 4 years, when it was shot.

Comments on postings....

Late to the thread:
While I agree, that it might be of great importance to the viewers that the poster states his or her intent and asks for specific comments, I do enjoy the idea of a visual exchange. Like a conversation using images instead of words. The thread on moving trains here on the site might serve as an example. There is no need to discuss anything, except to show how different people approach a given topic. I like that. There is no need, purpose or desire 'to grow' in any direction. It's like a meeting of folks who happen to be interested in the same theme. And, yes, I do get to meet people when I see pictures they care enough about to post them.
I appreciate the images in this thread and the images of many others a lot, even if I don't post a 'I like that' remark , a 'How about cropping' suggestion or a 'Would look good in B/W' idea.
Angela

Finally, I got time to reply your posts.

I can see the point members finding it difficult to enter in a discussion about a photography, without knowing its context. Klaus replied with a picture ;-) So her's my question: why it's one of your favorites?? Or do you want me to reply with a other one? Building image chaines?

I wasn't looking for a specific C & C, but the idea to show that pict came up, when reading Asher's initial post: ok, let's play it through, I' ll give a example, for doing so....

At the same time, that older shot came up, on the screen; I couldn't even remeber having shot that, but somehow, I felt touched by it (as its clear now, that the harbor will not stand for a long while, anymore, meanwhile, when taking it, it was a option) That's a way, picture do on us, too.

Cem: "Are you trying to find out if the image invokes certain emotions in the lookers? "
That was the point, I was looking for, in regard of the autumn of the docks. But as you said, I missed that question.
I wasn't looking for flatering response, à la nice shots, etc., at all; nor was/is my intention, to show cats & dogs, and spread out the harddisc here...

Ray, I went tonight to the backup, and converted the RAW again, but I didn't liked it much more than the posted, small jpg. Maybe a attitude, coming from staying so many hours per weeek in refining shot, so leaving that one rather raw, and trying to find qualities within that. Another idea: a harbour is a rather raw place, so making it nicer, with aesthetic's help (embelissement) can mean too, to no understand that old harbour.

So new questions are rising,
Good night

Angela Weil said:

Late to the thread:
While I agree, that it might be of great importance to the viewers that the poster states his or her intent and asks for specific comments, I do enjoy the idea of a visual exchange. Like a conversation using images instead of words. The thread on moving trains here on the site might serve as an example. There is no need to discuss anything, except to show how different people approach a given topic. I like that. There is no need, purpose or desire 'to grow' in any direction. It's like a meeting of folks who happen to be interested in the same theme. And, yes, I do get to meet people when I see pictures they care enough about to post them.
I appreciate the images in this thread and the images of many others a lot, even if I don't post a 'I like that' remark , a 'How about cropping' suggestion or a 'Would look good in B/W' idea.
Angela

Click to expand...

Yes Angela,

You are so right. That is prototypical of the of a fun way of sharing. Because one rapidly see the different placement of the train and other features, the series provides its own commentary.

So we don't always need a lot of words. Thanks for highlighting this!

This applies when people don't have issues to sort out! Our first post should say here's mine, show yours!

Asher

Hey Michael!

"I can see the point members finding it difficult to enter in a discussion about a photography, without knowing its context. Klaus replied with a picture ;-) So her's my question: why it's one of your favorites?? "

It´s one of my favourites because it´s funny and very special - as i see it. The face, the smile, the sunglasses, bulbs around, the colours . . all that i feel looks a bit strange, alien-like to me when i look at it.
At the same time it speaks open-minded curiosity . . i like that.

I put it here into this thread to demonstrate why i think it´s very hard to discuss photography without becoming either academic or professional/commercial.
From a professional´s view i can speak of commercial perfection or expression. Does it hit the claim? Is it a "real" testimonial? Does one believe in it? Is the product as perfect or as idealized as it should be? Has it "taste"? Has it "style"?

From a "photographer by heart" instead professional/commercial one could discuss the meaning of a picture, it´s content in a spiritual, stylish, aesthetical, intellectual or emotional way.
But that´s SO individual, so personal i would hardly discuss it - maybe when i find something which i interprete als faults or errors or aesthetical or intellectual irritating.

The only question here is: "does it look "good"? Is it interesting? Do i see "tension" which attracts me? Does it "tell me a story"?
When you look real close (IF you do that) - every picture tells a story. It tells a story about the photographer . . i sometimes mentioned that in fora . . and earned very negative reactions . .
People felt being analized as persons, not as "photographers" . . as if that could be divided . . ;-) .
It´s a PERSON who makes a photograph and this person makes this photograph as it is in a way which tells us about this, his/her personality, individualty as a human being. There is NO coincidence in how you make a photograph.
So, discussing a photograph in deep means to come very close to the photographer´s heart . . . ;-)

Does he really want that? I hope so - i do want that . . but i´m old and fearless . . but as i said: i sometimes earned very angry reactions, when i started to explain my closer looks in discussing a picture . .

best, Klaus

Klaus,

You touch important sets of responses to photographs, how we react to conciously, or not. The commericial impact utilities of a picture is one set, the photographers art is another and our individual reaction is the third important set of issues.

We're all idividuals. So you rightly point out that our personal response that may differ. Yes, that occurs. Still, there's so much more commonality[/U.] This is because, in broad terms, we share the same wants needs, hopes and imperatives and have the same life journeys.

When I comment, it is to attempt to address what I believe to be aspects of the photograph which generally encode transcultural reactions.

We laugh, cry, cherish, lust, indulge or suffer with the same mental tools. On our encoded reactions, there will be cultural and personal embroidary, but fundamentally, we are dealing with the same elemental necessities, fears, questions and aspirations, they are just wrapped differently.

So Klaus, personal reactions to the photograph tell the photographer the range of ways his image is experienced. For some photographers, that is why they post, not for commercial utility or technical advice.

Asher

Looking at an image....

I look at an image to see how it moves me.....speaks to me. I care little about a stated reason for the images existance, unless the image is primeraly information rather than an expression of feeling.

What gear you use......who cares? What settings did you use? Who cares. Certainly not me.

I realise that we use a very technical art form, but let's not lose sight of what the gear is there to do.

Just a couple of thoughts from a new member.....Bob

>What gear you use......who cares? What settings did you use? Who cares. Certainly not me.

>I realise that we use a very technical art form, but let's not lose sight of what the gear is there to do.

>Just a couple of thoughts from a new member.....Bob

Yes, yes, yes!

I still think about writing an article about "Cooking and Photography".

When you eat a great meal you may not think that much about the knifes used . If people praise a picture to be sharp then I feel really bad.

Uwe