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Shooting with a HY6 and a Sinarback eMotion 75 LV. A diary of Nicolas Claris experience. The Swiss brand Sinar has asked Nicolas Claris to shoot with a Sinar HY6 and a Sinarback eMotion 75 LV…

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  #1  
Old March 30th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Default Interior of a sailing yacht

Last week I had to shoot the entire interior of a 80 feet (24 meters) sailing yacht, a Shipman 80, built in Slovenia.

Below is the Salon, no added light, only boat's…

Schneider Super-Angulon PQ 3.5/40 mm - eMotion 75 - ƒ16 - ISO 100 - 8 sec. mirror locked



100% crop:

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  #2  
Old March 31st, 2008, 10:56 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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The exactly same file, but processed with Capture One 4 :



100% crop:
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  #3  
Old March 31st, 2008, 12:47 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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That's some real improvement Nicolas! So how were the first set of pictures processed and what are the different process steps applied to the second set?

Cheers,

Cem

PS: I think that you have got the best job in the world, you lucky devil! <big grin>
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  #4  
Old March 31st, 2008, 01:29 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Bonsoir Cem
the problem with these file is that, in Tiff 16 bit they're 190 Mb! each try takes long time…;-)

Sinar has a SW (Mac only) called CaptureShop, my findings are that there are some issues for me:
- Highlight clipping
- Difficult Kelvin settings (color wheel only) this is due to the fact that "normally" the former camera where mostly for indoor or controlled lighting, hence doing a WB is easy with a greycard. My conditions of working with interior mixed light or exterior always changing light make difficult, almost impossible, to work with a greay card…

But its demoisacing is fabulous…

Tomorrow (really) or within a few days the Sinar new SW called eXposure should be out and should resolve all my findings…

SO, after some research, my workflow came to use the Brumbaer tools to convert the original Sinar emotion back files to DNG, with an incredible capacit to recover highlights.

Then I could work the DNG with Apple's Aperture, Captue One 4, ACR or Lightroom.
It is not a secret for those reading me oftenly that I don't like (or don't know how to use) ACR nor LR.

So C1 v4 and Aperture were the solutions for me, but the results depends of the kind of shot (interior/exterior, high/low ISO, etc.) I still can't guess at first which one to start with…

I bet this will be rapidly forgotten as soon as I get my hands on eXposure :-)

To answer more specifically to your question, the main difference is the 1St attempt were with Aperture, the 2nd with C1 v4.
The difficulty was to catch and preserve the dynamic range which is large! from deep shadows to highlighted whites (below the table/white towels)

The files made by this camera/lens/back are amazing and I start to wonder how I'll be able to send them back to Sinar ;-)

I hope this answers to your question…

As far as:
Quote:
PS: I think that you have got the best job in the world, you lucky devil! <big grin>
May I let you know that I should be in Istanbul for 3 to 4 days next week? shooting a fast 70 feet powerboat… <hehehe :->
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  #5  
Old March 31st, 2008, 03:13 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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Nicolas, Bonsoir

I like that shot very much; it shows very good the interior of the yacht. Beeing othogonal, no big perspective distracts from viewing the boat and its design.

I personally prefer the C1, as my feeling is that the °built° of the shadow is nicer.
Doesn't Aperture slows down very much, with these big DNGs?

Please, could we see a crop of the outside's black? To have a öook at the noise...
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  #6  
Old March 31st, 2008, 03:22 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Hey! Bonsoir Michael
Good to hear from you, hope you're well (and Roman too…)!

Yes Aperture is slowed down even the latest version (2.1)
I do also prefer the C1 version, C1 has better overall IQ, maybe because I'm a long time user of C1pro…

I'll post a crop of the black tomorrow, as it is on my office computer…

FYI I also have 3 vertical shots made with the Sinar, they stitch very well with autopano (were shot with RRS ballhead) but I want to rework them with files processed with C1 ;-)
As a result the final file is 125 cm x 60 cm @ 300 dpi straight out of camera (I mean without any PP enlargement)!

I'll post results soon…
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  #7  
Old March 31st, 2008, 04:11 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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Wow, Nicolas

A stitch with 3 MF-shots - that must look great - I'm sure!
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  #8  
Old March 31st, 2008, 04:59 PM
James Newman James Newman is offline
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Wonderful images Nicolas. The second try is definitely my favorite of the two. The wood shows to be so much more rich and dark than in the first. Ah to be able to own such a boat. I keep being amazed at what you can do with that equipment. Speaking of, do you not think that Sinar will let you keep it once the year is finished? They should.
James Newman
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  #9  
Old April 1st, 2008, 12:21 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Michael, as you asked :



What about some wine?



There is still margin for some improvement (re noise and a very few CA on the forks that it is easy to get rid of) with both the photog and the PP
…;-)

But I like the way the blacks and highlights are present…
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  #10  
Old April 1st, 2008, 12:25 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Newman View Post
Wonderful images Nicolas. The second try is definitely my favorite of the two. The wood shows to be so much more rich and dark than in the first. Ah to be able to own such a boat. I keep being amazed at what you can do with that equipment. Speaking of, do you not think that Sinar will let you keep it once the year is finished? They should.
James Newman
Thanks for the kind words James…
How I would like the Sinar people to read this!
But I'm here to report arrgggllll!
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  #11  
Old April 1st, 2008, 01:33 AM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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I am curious about the difference from Capture Shop to the Capture One 4 results. - Then again, I know only very little about MFDB and my thoughts might not even apply here. - As far as I understand, Camera RAW or Lightroom for example do not work with camera profiles, capture one does.

Did you create and send a Hy6 Profile to C1 prior to development?

What about Capture shop does this work with profiles?

How did you set the whitebalance?

What colorspace do you use in general when you develop the eMotion data, ProPhoto RGB?
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  #12  
Old April 1st, 2008, 03:25 AM
Thierry Hagenauer Thierry Hagenauer is offline
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They are (I am) reading, Nicolas!

Bravo!

Amitiès,
Thierry

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Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Thanks for the kind words James…
How I would like the Sinar people to read this!
But I'm here to report arrgggllll!
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  #13  
Old April 1st, 2008, 08:51 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Now the owner's stateroom…

Schneider Super-Angulon PQ 3.5/40 mm - eMotion 75 - ƒ16 - ISO 100 - 5 sec. mirror locked

4 horizontal images stitched… 15000 (yes 15 thousand) pixels by 4723… do the maths… 70,5 million pixels image without enlargement (in fact about 10% downscale)!

Processed with Capture one 4, then assembled with Autopano:



100% crop:



Tonight or tomorrow… Video of the making of…

Last edited by Nicolas Claris; April 1st, 2008 at 03:11 PM. Reason: do the maths
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  #14  
Old April 1st, 2008, 11:18 AM
Ron Morse Ron Morse is offline
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The camera, your skills with it and the boat. I am totally in awe. That yacht is what dreams are made of and you show it so well.

I think I will go sulk into the storage garage and polish my boat now.
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  #15  
Old April 1st, 2008, 11:50 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Thanks Ron

wait a bit more I am actually uploading the making of in video… stay tuned !

Last edited by Nicolas Claris; April 1st, 2008 at 02:41 PM. Reason: typo
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  #16  
Old April 1st, 2008, 11:57 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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You can see the video of the "Making Of", shot, edited and music made by Romain Claris :

HERE

Sound on!

Thanks for your patience while the video loads…

Last edited by Nicolas Claris; April 1st, 2008 at 01:06 PM.
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  #17  
Old April 1st, 2008, 01:04 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
I am curious about the difference from Capture Shop to the Capture One 4 results. - Then again, I know only very little about MFDB and my thoughts might not even apply here. - As far as I understand, Camera RAW or Lightroom for example do not work with camera profiles, capture one does.

Did you create and send a Hy6 Profile to C1 prior to development?

What about Capture shop does this work with profiles?

How did you set the whitebalance?

What colorspace do you use in general when you develop the eMotion data, ProPhoto RGB?
Hi Georg
As far as I understand, as far as you use a DNG file, there is no need to profile in C1 v4

As of today and my knowledge, no other SW than CaptureShop can handle the Sinar back file (.sti).

If you want to use another SW for demoisacing these files, for now (still waiting for Sinar's new RD eXposure) the only way is to make a DNG of it user the Brumbaer tools (Google Brumbaer and you'll see the website).

If you read my post above, it explains the pluses of it and the issues I found in CShop…

WB is set to my taste in C1 (which is almost impossible in CShop)…

On the other hand, when shooting, a Black Reference is automatically calibrated with all exposure times and is automatically repeated every 15 minutes. With exposure times of more than 1 second, when altering the exposure time by more than 10%, automatically a new Black Reference is taken subsequently to an image capture.
Additionnaly, one can do before every new shoot a white reference shot, with a 10x10cm white diffuser, provided by sinar which one put in front of the lens.

Both Black and White references are used by CShop and Brumbaer DNG converter…

I use Adobe RGB whicj is AFAIK the native colorspace of emotion Sinar backs… of course 16 bits (190 Mb per file) and swith only to sRGB and 8 bit at the end if needed for web…
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  #18  
Old April 1st, 2008, 11:49 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
You can see the video of the "Making Of", shot, edited and music made by Romain Claris :

HERE

Sound on!

Thanks for your patience while the video loads…
Sorry a bad code did set the buffering time for 600 secondes, which for a 2'30 film is quite long!

It is set now to 30 sec…
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  #19  
Old April 2nd, 2008, 04:45 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
You can see the video of the "Making Of", shot, edited and music made by Romain Claris :
Nicolas,

Thanks for sharing, it was fun to watch and Romain's music was well adapted to the environment. The video demonstrated the benefits of a waistlevel (or angle) finder when having to handle/rotate the equipment in a tight space and your RRS BH55 with pano-clamp (PCL1) is a good tool for this type of shooting (level the ballhead, lock, mount the camera, and rotate the camera around the PCL).

The video also showed your love for the subject and respect for the owner, since you removed your shoes and carefully manoeuvred through the ship on your socks. They picked the right person to do the shooting.

Bart
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  #20  
Old April 2nd, 2008, 05:15 AM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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Nicolas.

Nice video and interesting music, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

As for the images, superb!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
As far as I understand, as far as you use a DNG file, there is no need to profile in C1 v4
I'm not sure on this, the DNG format is only a standardised wrapper for the RAW file. AFAIK, Colour profiling still needs to be done in C1-4. Well it did on my Ricoh GRD II DNG files.

The default neutral DNG profile was off the mark with serious magenta cast and oversaturation in primaries and secondaries.
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  #21  
Old April 2nd, 2008, 06:13 AM
Thierry Hagenauer Thierry Hagenauer is offline
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Nice Making-of, nice boat and wonderful images.

Well mastered, Nicolas.

Thierry



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Sorry a bad code did set the buffering time for 600 secondes, which for a 2'30 film is quite long!

It is set now to 30 sec…
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  #22  
Old April 2nd, 2008, 08:07 AM
Ron Morse Ron Morse is offline
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Its hard to imagine how good this camera is. Of course it is only as good as the man behind it.

This post and the video have been very enjoyable.
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  #23  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 10:26 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Nevill View Post
I'm not sure on this, the DNG format is only a standardised wrapper for the RAW file. AFAIK, Colour profiling still needs to be done in C1-4. Well it did on my Ricoh GRD II DNG files.

The default neutral DNG profile was off the mark with serious magenta cast and oversaturation in primaries and secondaries.
Bonsoir John

sorry to be late on this!

I guess you're right, but at least you may open "exotic" files… I found that the default settings were better with C1-4 than with the other RC…
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:20 PM
John_Nevill John_Nevill is offline
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Nicolas.

I've also had it confirmed that C1-4 doesn't output embedded camera profiles correctly, by default it will colormetrically renders them to sRGB, even if one chooses the "embedded camera profile" as the output colorspace.

It's a another little buglet, that will hopefully be corrected in 4.02.

So no chance of building accurate custom profiles. I wondered why my little Ricoh's gamut fitted inside sRGB. It was remapped before profiling.

Sorry for the off topic!
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  #25  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:28 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Thanks John
Workflow discussion for raw Sinar file is not OT here ;-)

The good news (at least I hope so) is that the new eXposure from Sinar should be out next Monday… (as announced by Thierry Haggenauer in another thread). Of course I guess it won't handle the Ricoh's files ;-)
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 03:39 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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Beeing rather busy, I' m responding a bit late....

Thanks Nicolas for the shadow and highlight image, as well as the stitch; and yes, the shadows in the singleshot and off course the pano, they both look very promising.

The pano, is it about 200 degrees, horizontal?

A side-question: when shooting the pano and the yacht °wabbles° a bit, doesn't the tripot is moving as well?
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  #27  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 10:43 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Bonjour Michael
photographer busy: photographer happy! ;-)

The salon pano is a bout 120% (3 V shots)
The cabin pano, I'll check but I think it's about 170° (4 H shots with a lot of covering)

The boat was alongside a dock in a marina, so it was quite calm, but even when it moves a bit, the risk for the tripod to move are very little. It's a quite big boat :-)
What would be annoying is of they had an AC generator running because it creates some vibrations… this happen when the boat is anchored in a tropical mooring and we need airconditionning to ba able to work inside the boat… temp. may come very high !-)
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Old April 5th, 2008, 05:44 AM
Klaus Esser Klaus Esser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Fontana View Post
Beeing rather busy, I' m responding a bit late....

Thanks Nicolas for the shadow and highlight image, as well as the stitch; and yes, the shadows in the singleshot and off course the pano, they both look very promising.

The pano, is it about 200 degrees, horizontal?

A side-question: when shooting the pano and the yacht °wabbles° a bit, doesn't the tripot is moving as well?
Hi Michael!

Because the tripod moves with the boat, there´s no movement in the picture at all. If the tripod doesnt vibrate in itself or the camara´s mirror shakes it (i had that with a H3D recently . . )

The same is with cameras mounted in cars or on the car´s outside - the car´s interior doesen´t move in relation to the camera.

(sorry, Nic, for bumping in)

best, Klaus
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  #29  
Old April 6th, 2008, 04:11 AM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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Klaus

off course I was aware, what you' re describing - the tripod moving with the boat.

Still, when the yacht moves, the tripod can slide a bit. So my question was relating to my experience that when stitching, I avoided the slightest move of the tripod/panohead/cam, and used a quite heavy tripod, to have some mass under the cam.
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  #30  
Old April 6th, 2008, 02:25 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Hi Michael

I checked on a layout plan, the cabin pano is 140°.

Re. movement this boat when loaded (tanks full, and all gear being on board) should load about 35 to 38 tons… not so easy to shake! once inside a marina, no one can notice a movement… or should it be, it is very smooth and won't allow a good standard tripod to slip…

Mirror was locked cause of the low shutter speed…
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