Cem_Usakligil
Well-known member
Now, where did I read this very discussion before? <wink>Dierk Haasis said:
LOL
Cem
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LOL
Cem
And fairly miserable to ride in, and, according to my nephew, fairly miserable to drive, as well. He rented one in Birmingham, Alabama, to drive up to Nashville when he finished teaching his class there, last Friday, having flown to Birmingham from Detroit, after his teaching stint in Michigan.Dierk Haasis said:
Very poor pick-up available in the PT Cruiser, a factor in highway safety.
I rode in the passenger seat of it on Saturday, all around Nashville, because my nephew's wife was using their van to take people to the polls--she was the transport committee chairman, but she drove several people to the early voting place downtown, also.
However, to my delight--the polls being closed for the day--we took the family van, my nephew's wife also along with us, when it transpired that I needed to shop for a new computer.
From one front passenger's point of view, a critique of the PT Cruiser:
Easy enough to get into, no lumbar support in the seat and insufficient cushioning for the tailbone. Good view through the front windshield and side windows. I kept forgetting where the door handle was, although the manual seat-belt engagement presented me no problems.
And, even in local traffic, I noted the problems with slow pick-up, and was actually the one to mention the issue first to my nephew. He normally drives a Ford Taurus and I enjoy riding in it very much.
Of course, its big selling point when first marketed--and perhaps even yet--was conservation of gasoline (petrol) resources, IIRC.
Mary
(no connossieur of autos, but who know what she likes, all the same)
Very cool, indeed, Alain.Alain Briot said:Yes (for Dylan). The lyrics are just superb and his last album is very "rock", quite different from what he was doing previously. There are some gems in there. It's available via iTunes (which is where I got mine). YOu can then burn a CD, straight from iTunes, to play in your carVery cool.
Do you happen to have the DVD (from PBS) of *No Direction Home*, the documentary on Bob Dylan, directed by Martin Scorsese?
I watched the program the first time it aired and immediately ordered mine. Have viewed it three times in the past few months. It's extremely interesting, and if you don't happen to have seen it on PBS, worth shopping for at the PBS on-line store, I think.
Mary
Alain Briot
pro member
I've seen it on PBS and it is interesting. I love movies about musicians and have seen most of them. There are cinemas in Paris that play only that kind of movie and you can pay the entrance fee once then stay all day and watch all sorts of different movies.
What I liked about Dylan was his awareness of why he was getting such bad rap at the beginning of his career, playing with country bands with a new and unpopular-yet style. It's very interesting because so many artists have such a difficult time coping with people who do not like what they do, because they want everyone to love their work, even when upon reflection this is clearly not in the cards. I talk about that regularly in my essays, and I think I will use Dylan's early experience the next time I do so. A lot of what I write about right now is about art using photography as my point of departure.
And of course Martin Scorcese is a riot, and a genius. He has a new movie out with Jack Nicholson et al. He did a commercial for American Express which I think is just as good a description of his artistic approach as any documentary about his work so far. In it he is at Walgreens (or such) looking at snapshots they printed for him, and as he goes through them quickly in front of the clerk he "edits them" live saying things like "What was I thinking-where is the framing?" "Definitly no character development there!" "How can you get in the plot with that?" and so on. The conclusion, as can be expected since it is a commercial, is that "I'll have to shoot this all over again". Some commercials can be fun.
On a different note Natalie and I are going to see the Rolling Stones in Glendale on Nov. 8th. They are playing in the new super-size stadium where they'll have the Super Bowl either next year or the year after that. It's a short drive from where we are.
Regards,
What I liked about Dylan was his awareness of why he was getting such bad rap at the beginning of his career, playing with country bands with a new and unpopular-yet style. It's very interesting because so many artists have such a difficult time coping with people who do not like what they do, because they want everyone to love their work, even when upon reflection this is clearly not in the cards. I talk about that regularly in my essays, and I think I will use Dylan's early experience the next time I do so. A lot of what I write about right now is about art using photography as my point of departure.
And of course Martin Scorcese is a riot, and a genius. He has a new movie out with Jack Nicholson et al. He did a commercial for American Express which I think is just as good a description of his artistic approach as any documentary about his work so far. In it he is at Walgreens (or such) looking at snapshots they printed for him, and as he goes through them quickly in front of the clerk he "edits them" live saying things like "What was I thinking-where is the framing?" "Definitly no character development there!" "How can you get in the plot with that?" and so on. The conclusion, as can be expected since it is a commercial, is that "I'll have to shoot this all over again". Some commercials can be fun.
On a different note Natalie and I are going to see the Rolling Stones in Glendale on Nov. 8th. They are playing in the new super-size stadium where they'll have the Super Bowl either next year or the year after that. It's a short drive from where we are.
Regards,
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Alain Briot
pro member
scott kirkpatrick said:
Hi Scott,
Right on except that this is the delivery vehicle ;-)
Paris=movie heaven, then, among other things.Alain Briot said:
Indeed. It's only human to want to be loved and to have what one does loved and praised. Never gonna be totally in the cards.
Very hard to reach down inside for the confidence to believe in one's own opinion--when most of the time the best course is to analyze and reflect upon the opinions being offered by others. And the good judgment and self-confidence to know when you're right and stick by it--for most of us these traits are hard-won and may take a lifetime to fully develop.
You know that I love your essays. They are an inspiration to me, but beyond that, for me, a pure pleasure to read.
Oh, I feel so left out!! I haven't seen this one yet.
Most of the time my TV is turned off. I get very weary of the election hype going on right now, and, for the places and programs I do like to watch--they're taking second place to OPF, at the moment.
I'm so impressed. Enjoy yourselves--I know that you will.
I have a sister-in-law who lives in Glendale--the widow of my mother's youngest brother. He was a photographer and worked in the technical end of things at Warner Bros., from the end of WWII until the end of his life. He had 13 children, of whom 12 survive. One of the pair of twins did not live past infancy.
One of those children still lives in Glendale with his wife. And he's retired from Warner Bros.--was a sound recordist there.
His IP began bouncing my e-mails a year or two ago. So now we're in touch only around Christmas every year. He's the only one of this set of first cousins I've met. Wonderful man--I cherish him.
As you're learning, I'm blessed with a very large extended family.
Anyway, enjoy the Stones!
Mary
Alain Briot
pro member
"Anyway, enjoy the Stones!"
I have to check if Keith Richards is fully recovered from his fall out of a coconut tree and onto his head ;-)
Alain
I have to check if Keith Richards is fully recovered from his fall out of a coconut tree and onto his head ;-)
Alain
Alain Briot
pro member
I think Keith's condition will be clear as soon as he walks onto the stage... ;-) The opening of the Steel Wheels Concert DVD is what I am thinking about (at least I think its Steel Wheels, I'll have to check). I'm in the midst of writing right now.
Alain Briot
pro member
It's actually no problem. I enjoy going in and out of the forum as a way to break from my writing. Keeps me sharp ;-) Plus it's fun. I can walk and chew gum;-)
Laughing out loud
PS- The reason why I mention that "I can walk and chew gum" is because I learned of this metaphor through a customer at a show on a day when that person was talking to me while I was perparing their receipt. I made mistakes on their total, because I was trying to listen at the same time I was adding their purchases, which led to the customer saying that "I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time." I have always been somewhat unclear as to how people can hang artwork in their house by artists who they insulted or found inept. But, again, there is a lot of things that I don't understand ;-)
I prefer to laugh at it, hence my LOL remark .
Laughing out loud
PS- The reason why I mention that "I can walk and chew gum" is because I learned of this metaphor through a customer at a show on a day when that person was talking to me while I was perparing their receipt. I made mistakes on their total, because I was trying to listen at the same time I was adding their purchases, which led to the customer saying that "I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time." I have always been somewhat unclear as to how people can hang artwork in their house by artists who they insulted or found inept. But, again, there is a lot of things that I don't understand ;-)
I prefer to laugh at it, hence my LOL remark .
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It is certainly fun for me to talk with you. So, now you have reassured me that I'm not wearing out my welcome, and I was really concerned that I might be.Alain Briot said:
However, sometimes, indeed, I can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
< Read: "I can't write back and clean a beloved cat's litter box at the same time." She has me trained, and from a tiny kitten has never tolerated a used litter box--she demands that it be tended to the moment she finishes using it. >
There are too many crude, hateful people in this world. And you are right, we can only laugh and move on away from them as soon as possible, when we do encounter them.
You and me both!
I'm glad you told me the anecdote.
It's interesting to know how people first encounter an idiom, or a metaphor that has entered the common speech. I've heard this one so much that it doesn't even startle me any more. And I don't know how long it's been around. Always, it arrives to the ear with the aura of "put-down."
And, if it's directed at you, "LOL" is the best way to deflect the sting.
As in, "don't sweat the small stuff."
Five days now till October 31. November is headed our way, and the publication date of your book, which I am eagerly awaiting.
Mary
Alain Briot
pro member
Hi Mary,
I first encountered the metaphor/idiom "one of these days" through the titled of Pink Floyd's song on Dark side of the Moon. It took me easily 10 to 15 years until I understood what it meant from a cultural perspective. I have many such examples. "Stray cat blues" from the Rolling Stones for example. It never dawned on me for a long long time that a cat could be anything but a cat ;-) Some of them I still wonder about. I ask Natalie but she can't figure it out either. Makes me feel better because it makes me feel like I'm not the only one to be confused. "Wee wee hours" is one of them. What exactly are the wee wee hours ? Should I read it as "Oui Oui" or is there something else to it? Of course there is the entire range of metaphors. I remember being in sociology class in college and having to explain what "she flipped her wig" meant. I had to go to the teacher to get pointers explaining it just wasn't fair since I grew up on the other side of the ocean. Sometimes even Natalie doesn't know where metaphors she's used forever really comes from. "Out in left field" is a good example. There's simply not that much going on in the left side of the baseball field ;-) The number of American metaphors coming out of baseball are actually staggering. One could devote an entire book just going over them.
We could have a thread just on that too.
The book is scheduled to be published November 17.
Alain
I first encountered the metaphor/idiom "one of these days" through the titled of Pink Floyd's song on Dark side of the Moon. It took me easily 10 to 15 years until I understood what it meant from a cultural perspective. I have many such examples. "Stray cat blues" from the Rolling Stones for example. It never dawned on me for a long long time that a cat could be anything but a cat ;-) Some of them I still wonder about. I ask Natalie but she can't figure it out either. Makes me feel better because it makes me feel like I'm not the only one to be confused. "Wee wee hours" is one of them. What exactly are the wee wee hours ? Should I read it as "Oui Oui" or is there something else to it? Of course there is the entire range of metaphors. I remember being in sociology class in college and having to explain what "she flipped her wig" meant. I had to go to the teacher to get pointers explaining it just wasn't fair since I grew up on the other side of the ocean. Sometimes even Natalie doesn't know where metaphors she's used forever really comes from. "Out in left field" is a good example. There's simply not that much going on in the left side of the baseball field ;-) The number of American metaphors coming out of baseball are actually staggering. One could devote an entire book just going over them.
We could have a thread just on that too.
The book is scheduled to be published November 17.
Alain
Hi Alain,
It depends where you are from, I do not know the music/word context you mentioned. but in Northern England, maybe Scotland, 'wee' means very small, tiny. Wee wee could mean very very small, smaller than a small thing. The wee hours of a day, depends on what time you get up, I suspect, but would probably mean three or four in the morning, I guess, 'the small numbers on the clock.
Now, for children, when they want to go to toilet, because folk do not like to hear their beloved three year old say ('mummy, mummy, I want to urinate!) tend to get them to say things like 'mummy,mummy, I need to wee-wee) which may well be the more rock and roll intention here. As you get older, as the quantity gets more, and perhaps things become more urgent, it gets shortened too, 'I need to go for a wee'. (only one wee)
It may be coincidence that you often need a wee in the wee hours of the morning, and I suppose there could be some other tie up between the two meanings.
Best Wishes,
Ray
(the next lesson is on someone who is a gossip, being referred to as 'an old scuttlebutt', not used much today...)
It depends where you are from, I do not know the music/word context you mentioned. but in Northern England, maybe Scotland, 'wee' means very small, tiny. Wee wee could mean very very small, smaller than a small thing. The wee hours of a day, depends on what time you get up, I suspect, but would probably mean three or four in the morning, I guess, 'the small numbers on the clock.
Now, for children, when they want to go to toilet, because folk do not like to hear their beloved three year old say ('mummy, mummy, I want to urinate!) tend to get them to say things like 'mummy,mummy, I need to wee-wee) which may well be the more rock and roll intention here. As you get older, as the quantity gets more, and perhaps things become more urgent, it gets shortened too, 'I need to go for a wee'. (only one wee)
It may be coincidence that you often need a wee in the wee hours of the morning, and I suppose there could be some other tie up between the two meanings.
Best Wishes,
Ray
(the next lesson is on someone who is a gossip, being referred to as 'an old scuttlebutt', not used much today...)
I'm laughing out loud now, at all the things you've had to contend with in my mother tongue. Laughing in sympathy.Alain Briot said:
Do you know the nursery rhyme, "This little pig went to market/This little pig stayed home/this little pig had good roast beef/This little pig had none" etc.?
You play it with a young child's toes--and when you get to the little toe you say, "This little pig cried, 'wee, wee, wee'/All the way home."
As soon as you wrote "oui, oui" above that popped into my mind. One could easily substitute that for what the fifth little pig cried.
Yes, indeed!
I have had my own limited experiences with metaphors from a foreign language/culture. The phrase "owls to Athena" is one from Germany, which of course had to be explained to me. It's like the British/US "coals to Newcastle." Do you have something like that in French?
I'm always wary of explaining things too much among an erudite crowd like the OPF members--lest I be carrying coals to Newcastle, where there is already plenty of coal.
Yes. Perhaps I should start one, "Stumbling Over Metaphors in a Second Language," or some such title.
I'm on your "notify" e-mail list, so I'll be watching for that reminder!
Mary
Ray's critique on "wee, wee hours" included:
For the first time it occurs to me that maybe that fifth little pig merely wants mommy to locate a bathroom for him and isn't worried about getting some of the "good roast beef" at all!
Mary
... and I'm laughing out loud, mostly at myself. I just finished writing to Alain about the "five little pigs" nursery rhyme game that one plays with a very young child, counting on toes at the appropriate lines.
For the first time it occurs to me that maybe that fifth little pig merely wants mommy to locate a bathroom for him and isn't worried about getting some of the "good roast beef" at all!
Mary
Hi Mary,
As you are probably aware, most nursery rhymes were based on historical fact, a verbal political cartoon of the time. Obvious ones were 'Grand Old Duke of York', 'Mary, Mary, how does your Garden Grow', 'Humpty Dumpty', and so on and so forth. When you mentioned the 'five little piggies', I assumed that the' wee, wee, wee', for the last, alluded to the French 'Oui, Oui, Oui', and that it referred to a time in history, when perhaps five people, even countries, kings or bishops, (I've a suspicion it may be popes, perhaps to do with the knights templars) did those things, at least allegoricaly, the last one running to France for help, shouting in effect yes, yes, yes. I can not locate any thing to confirm or deny that, only that it was supposedly written in 1728. Most such rhymes were handed down by word of mouth, carried from town to town by news tellers, etc.
The following link has some information, but I can not vouch for its accuracy. In particular, the words would be different I suspect, in different parts of the english speaking world, and if they went to America, then it could well be that the American versions are nearer the original. (in the same way as this time of year is called 'fall' in usa, and 'autumn' in UK, but it used to be called 'fall' over here too.)
http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/nursery_rhymes/nursery_rhymes_index.htm Be aware, I think this site has annoying pop-ups, etc.
Best wishes,
Ray
As you are probably aware, most nursery rhymes were based on historical fact, a verbal political cartoon of the time. Obvious ones were 'Grand Old Duke of York', 'Mary, Mary, how does your Garden Grow', 'Humpty Dumpty', and so on and so forth. When you mentioned the 'five little piggies', I assumed that the' wee, wee, wee', for the last, alluded to the French 'Oui, Oui, Oui', and that it referred to a time in history, when perhaps five people, even countries, kings or bishops, (I've a suspicion it may be popes, perhaps to do with the knights templars) did those things, at least allegoricaly, the last one running to France for help, shouting in effect yes, yes, yes. I can not locate any thing to confirm or deny that, only that it was supposedly written in 1728. Most such rhymes were handed down by word of mouth, carried from town to town by news tellers, etc.
The following link has some information, but I can not vouch for its accuracy. In particular, the words would be different I suspect, in different parts of the english speaking world, and if they went to America, then it could well be that the American versions are nearer the original. (in the same way as this time of year is called 'fall' in usa, and 'autumn' in UK, but it used to be called 'fall' over here too.)
http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/nursery_rhymes/nursery_rhymes_index.htm Be aware, I think this site has annoying pop-ups, etc.
Best wishes,
Ray
Alain Briot
pro member
Hi Ray,
Thank you for your explanations. I think "the small hours of the morning" are a poetic version that I enjoy. The other makes sense, but I prefer the first for poetic reasons.
By the way, sorry about your list not working for me. I am, by nature, an artist and in practice more Voltarian than Cartesian. In fact, while I was born in Paris, I grew up in Voltaire's native town, Chatenay Malabry, which in recent months has become known for being the location where the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) lab is located and thus the place where certain pro-cyclists' fate is being decided.
Great link to the nursery rhymes! Thank you.
Mary,
So what do you think it mean when the little pig cries 'wee, wee, wee' all the way home? Is "Wee, wee, wee" simply a cry for pain or help? Or "yes yes yes" as ray suggests?
Thank you for your explanations. I think "the small hours of the morning" are a poetic version that I enjoy. The other makes sense, but I prefer the first for poetic reasons.
By the way, sorry about your list not working for me. I am, by nature, an artist and in practice more Voltarian than Cartesian. In fact, while I was born in Paris, I grew up in Voltaire's native town, Chatenay Malabry, which in recent months has become known for being the location where the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) lab is located and thus the place where certain pro-cyclists' fate is being decided.
Great link to the nursery rhymes! Thank you.
Mary,
So what do you think it mean when the little pig cries 'wee, wee, wee' all the way home? Is "Wee, wee, wee" simply a cry for pain or help? Or "yes yes yes" as ray suggests?
Hi Alain,
Not my list now, its yours, everybodies, if they want. I try very hard to not be too attached to my thoughts or ideas, 'once the words are spoke, they are no longer mine,' they logically can't be, 'cos if they were, 'I could unspeak them'. This is not to say I won't argue, if I think I (or hopefully anyone else), has been misunderstood. It wouldn't be much fun if everyone was like me, or like you. Now, if you've decided, having spent four days with a piece of paper, trying to decide that spending four days to decide that deciding it in that manner is not for you, then, one of us needs help ....
wrt nursery rhymes, many of them we are now not allowed to say, the pc thought police having struck.
Best wishes,
Ray (pc == politically correct)
Not my list now, its yours, everybodies, if they want. I try very hard to not be too attached to my thoughts or ideas, 'once the words are spoke, they are no longer mine,' they logically can't be, 'cos if they were, 'I could unspeak them'. This is not to say I won't argue, if I think I (or hopefully anyone else), has been misunderstood. It wouldn't be much fun if everyone was like me, or like you. Now, if you've decided, having spent four days with a piece of paper, trying to decide that spending four days to decide that deciding it in that manner is not for you, then, one of us needs help ....
wrt nursery rhymes, many of them we are now not allowed to say, the pc thought police having struck.
Best wishes,
Ray (pc == politically correct)
Ray, I do like your idea that "This little pig went to market" was originally political satire, as so many English nursery rhymes are. It makes sense for the transcription from "oui, oui, oui" to "wee, wee, wee" to have occurred, and pretty early on, at that.
I learned this one from my mother--can't recall her playing the game with my own toes, but I certainly remember her playing it with my three just-younger sisters. And definitely I played it myself with those younger siblings, including my baby brother. Still later, with my own children.
Interestingly, I can't recall this particular one ever being set to music. Unlike "Jack and Jill," "Lazy Mary Will You Get Up," and "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary."
A lot of English queens were named Mary. But, as I grew up within a close-knit family, sometimes the latter two were sung at me!
Mary
I learned this one from my mother--can't recall her playing the game with my own toes, but I certainly remember her playing it with my three just-younger sisters. And definitely I played it myself with those younger siblings, including my baby brother. Still later, with my own children.
Interestingly, I can't recall this particular one ever being set to music. Unlike "Jack and Jill," "Lazy Mary Will You Get Up," and "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary."
A lot of English queens were named Mary. But, as I grew up within a close-knit family, sometimes the latter two were sung at me!
Mary
Alain Briot
pro member
The phonetic penning of oui as wee clarifies one of my longest-standing nagging questions about idioms.
Thank you.
Thank you.