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Banding Not Exclusive to Pentax...Canon 5D?

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Benjamin Kanarek

pro member
Just Copied this from e Photozine. It seems that the apparent problem with the K10D is not exclusive to PENTAX:

Hi, I have had terrible problems with chronic lining/banding appearing on images across all isos.

I sent my camera back to Canon U.K. 3 tmes each time coming back with same problem. Tried different lenes, flash cards etc but no improvement.

As a result I borrowed a camera from my local canon agent in Ireland, tested it, straight away same problem. Only constant between my camera and this one was flash. So rented a 580ex, to go shoot wedding, same problem in the church, I was fit to scream!

I would rate 5d as an unusable camera for the professional. Also Canon U.K. and Canon U.S.A did not appear to know about this problem. I like others had to find out about it on internet. This is a terrible camera and atrocious customer support from canon.

In short I have noticed this problem across various isos starting at 100, with different lenses, memory cards and flashes but indoor shots in mixed light very susceptible to this banding.

The shop I bought it from, B&H Photovideo, would not entertain replacement or refund even though camera was sold in this state and I have repair record to show this. In fact customer service agents very unhelpful there, to the point of rudeness.

What are we poor saps who shelled out a fair whack of cash on these rubbish cameras to do?

see this link for other people who had same issue:
http://www.dslrphoto.com/2006/02/23/chuck-westfall-comments-on-5d-camera-banding-issues/
 
K

Kyle Nagel

New member
Different types of banding will be caused for different reasons, most DSLRs with APS sized sensors over 6 MP will sometimes exhibit banding in underexposed dark objects at high ISOs, this high ISO banding is also mentioned by Chuck Westfall in the link in your post, though the 5D has a larger sensor (but more megapixels). However I would suspect if this particular user is getting it in most of the images across all ISOs that it is some sort of interference When it happens at all ISOs in all of the images it is an indication there is something wrong with the camera, and generally a different body will fix it, which would probably mean there was a defect in the shielding or in the electronics that caused the problem. If he has experienced it on all of his images on more that one body, and Canon couldn't find a problem when he sent it to them, I would then suspect he has something that is causing inference with the camera's electronics or the sensor. Perhaps a cell phone, wireless PDA, hearing aid, etc. I mentioned the hearing aid because this actually happened to a friend of my wifes, every image she took with her point and shoot digital for nearly a year had really bad banding, yet those pictures her husband or someone else took with the same camera did not have the banding. It took them a year before they figured out it was her hearing aid, which it turns out had also been causing problems with their computer speakers. Until they had discovered the problem the running joke had been that technology hated her and was conspiring against her.

It is interesting to note that just about every DSLR out there has had some reports of banding, the Nikon D200 initially had more reports of banding than the K10D did. The article by Chuck Westfall in your link regarding the 5D also shows that this is not something that Canon is immune to either.

The moral of the story is don't take under-exposed pictures of Ninjas at night, at or above 800 ISO! :>)


Kyle
 
B

Benjamin Kanarek

pro member
Hear Hear

Kyle Nagel said:
Different types of banding will be caused for different reasons, most DSLRs with APS sized sensors over 6 MP will sometimes exhibit banding in underexposed dark objects at high ISOs, this high ISO banding is also mentioned by Chuck Westfall in the link in your post, though the 5D has a larger sensor (but more megapixels). However I would suspect if this particular user is getting it in most of the images across all ISOs that it is some sort of interference When it happens at all ISOs in all of the images it is an indication there is something wrong with the camera, and generally a different body will fix it, which would probably mean there was a defect in the shielding or in the electronics that caused the problem. If he has experienced it on all of his images on more that one body, and Canon couldn't find a problem when he sent it to them, I would then suspect he has something that is causing inference with the camera's electronics or the sensor. Perhaps a cell phone, wireless PDA, hearing aid, etc. I mentioned the hearing aid because this actually happened to a friend of my wifes, every image she took with her point and shoot digital for nearly a year had really bad banding, yet those pictures her husband or someone else took with the same camera did not have the banding. It took them a year before they figured out it was her hearing aid, which it turns out had also been causing problems with their computer speakers. Until they had discovered the problem the running joke had been that technology hated her and was conspiring against her.

It is interesting to note that just about every DSLR out there has had some reports of banding, the Nikon D200 initially had more reports of banding than the K10D did. The article by Chuck Westfall in your link regarding the 5D also shows that this is not something that Canon is immune to either.

The moral of the story is don't take under-exposed pictures of Ninjas at night, at or above 800 ISO! :>)


Kyle
Click to expand...

Kyle...That "IS" the best advise you could give anyone...Hear Hear!
 
B

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
I've never seen it with the two 5D's I own one of which is almost permenantly set to iso 1600. I also underexpose slightly in general to protect the highlights and have never seen banding unless I try a 4 stop push on a file in the shadows but then no sensor can hold up to that.

You should try the original 1Ds, now that was a camera that would show banding in the blacks, always in the same place, a big red band, if you underexposed by even a stop. It was incredibly unforgiving.
 
K

Kyle Nagel

New member
I'm now convinced that high ISO under-exposed shots of dark objects is the primary cause of nearly all banding, and it can cause it on just about any camera under the right conditions. It just seems that once someone sees it on an image they obsess with it. Personally I think that 99.9% of the time (if ever) most users won't even see it on K10D images under normal shooting conditions, unless there is something specifically wrong with a particular body. Interestingly one thing I have noticed is the 6mp DSLRs are actually pretty good at not banding on high ISO darker images, this type of banding mostly occurs on DSLRs over 8 mp.

Kyle
 
J

John Sheehy

New member
Kyle Nagel said:
I'm now convinced that high ISO under-exposed shots of dark objects is the primary cause of nearly all banding, and it can cause it on just about any camera under the right conditions. It just seems that once someone sees it on an image they obsess with it. Personally I think that 99.9% of the time (if ever) most users won't even see it on K10D images under normal shooting conditions, unless there is something specifically wrong with a particular body. Interestingly one thing I have noticed is the 6mp DSLRs are actually pretty good at not banding on high ISO darker images, this type of banding mostly occurs on DSLRs over 8 mp.
Click to expand...

Well, the banding in the Canon 10D is stronger than the banding in the 20D, but not many people noticed it until the 20D, because the 10D had much more non-line noise than the 20D at higher ISOs, and it made the banding hard to see.
 
B

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
Just got back from shooting a barmitzva and used the my 2nd 5D extensively at iso 1600 with the 85mm 1.8 (one mentioned as problematic by Chuck). I'm sorry but with images even a stop under and looking deep into the blacks I just can't see any banding in my ACR rendered files. Yes of course there are blotches from the colour noise reduction (set to my default of '10') which do show up in the opened blacks, but when I turn it off the sharpened colour/luminance noise is totally random, not patterned in any way. This is from pushing the blacks by 3 stops!

Sorry...
 
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Kyle Nagel

New member
This is similar to how others find banding in the K10D, and yet I do not. No matter how hard I try I haven't seen it in any of my shots nor have I yet been able to intentionally create it. So although the primary cause may be high-ISO under exposed images, I think some other less quantifiable factors must also come into play. What is also strange is those that encounter it tell stories of exchanging bodies, sending them back to the manufacturer, etc. and they still have it in all of the bodies they use, and yet others, like yourself will use multiples bodies and never have it. It would be nice to have more information from the manufacturers as to what they have found out regarding it. The problem is they give vague or contradictory information regarding the exact causes and solutions, either that or they deny it exists citing user error. Internet searches find reports of it in cameras from nearly every manufacturer, and it doesn't appear to be limited to a particular type of sensor, or who made it.

Kyle
 
R

Ray West

New member
Is not the camera only a small part of it? How about the raw image converter. Who is using what? try some others.

Best wishes,

Ray
 
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