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Usual tiff option replaced w/ psd

Jeremy Jachym

pro member
I've been using Photoshop for 6 years and I've habitually saved my files as tiffs. Yesterday I noticed when I go to save a file .psd is the default and when I set it to tiff it takes longer to save. Perhaps Lightroom is the cause? I've been using LR for a 2-3 weeks now and haven't encountered this before... any clues?

JJ
 
I've been using Photoshop for 6 years and I've habitually saved my files as tiffs. Yesterday I noticed when I go to save a file .psd is the default and when I set it to tiff it takes longer to save. Perhaps Lightroom is the cause? I've been using LR for a 2-3 weeks now and haven't encountered this before... any clues?

JJ

Could it be that it defaults to the last file format (with the same bit depth) opened?

Bart
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
I've noticed this too. Bottom line is if you export it from LR (or ACR or any other converter) as a DNG, CS will open it as a DNG and want to save it as a PSD by default. (If you export a tiff, CS usually holds that format all the way through.) If you make any changes, CS will want to save it as a PSD. FWIW, you can easily change it back to tiff in the save dialog, though it takes the extra mouse click to do it.

The GOOD: 1) It won't overwrite your original tiff convresion due to the different extension, 2) a layered PSD is smaller than a layered tiff assuming all esle equal, 3) Adobe is unlikely to abandon the PSD format in future CS releases, and finally, I suspect this change is in anticipation of including active history states to file saves in the next CS3 release --- a HUGE advantage when/if it comes!

The BAD (kinda): 1) If you save the PSD, you will have it and the tiff on your system and 2x as many large files (though as in my case, this is a relatively low percentage of the total files I export, so may not be a big issue with current storage prices of under 30 cents/Gig), 2) psd is not as universal as tiff (though again, many programs that read tiffs cannot read the layers anyway.)

My personal take: I usually save a layered PSD AND a flattened tiff for maximum outward compatibility, but only on files I've actually manipulated in CS. All others, I simply save the raws and any tiffs I exported since the converters seem to improve with each release and any future conversions will usually be improved at the same time.

My .02,
 

Diane Fields

New member
I've noticed this too. Bottom line is if you export it from LR (or ACR or any other converter) as a DNG, CS will open it as a DNG and want to save it as a PSD by default. (If you export a tiff, CS usually holds that format all the way through.) If you make any changes, CS will want to save it as a PSD. FWIW, you can easily change it back to tiff in the save dialog, though it takes the extra mouse click to do it.

The GOOD: 1) It won't overwrite your original tiff convresion due to the different extension, 2) a layered PSD is smaller than a layered tiff assuming all esle equal, 3) Adobe is unlikely to abandon the PSD format in future CS releases, and finally, I suspect this change is in anticipation of including active history states to file saves in the next CS3 release --- a HUGE advantage when/if it comes!

The BAD (kinda): 1) If you save the PSD, you will have it and the tiff on your system and 2x as many large files (though as in my case, this is a relatively low percentage of the total files I export, so may not be a big issue with current storage prices of under 30 cents/Gig), 2) psd is not as universal as tiff (though again, many programs that read tiffs cannot read the layers anyway.)

My personal take: I usually save a layered PSD AND a flattened tiff for maximum outward compatibility, but only on files I've actually manipulated in CS. All others, I simply save the raws and any tiffs I exported since the converters seem to improve with each release and any future conversions will usually be improved at the same time.

My .02,

I'm still not sure which way to go---I've always saved in psd and flattened tiff also, but here's what Jeff Schewe (and Andrew Rodney about the same in the same thread) said--and I quote from Jeff's post (in his usual very blunt way LOL) including the 'quoted' post he was citing:

"QUOTE(madmanchan @ Aug 22 2007, 10:04 AM)
There is no reason that a TIFF would be preferred over a PSD (or the other way around)...

and Jeff Schewe says:

Wrong...PSD is now a bastardized file format that is NOT a good idea to use. Even the Photoshop engineers will tell you that PSD is no longer the Photoshop "native" file format. It has no advantages and many disadvantages over TIFF.

TIFF is publicly documented, PSD is not. That makes TIFF a preferred file format for the long term conservation of digital files.

TIFF uses ZIP compression for max compression, PSD uses RLE which if you save without the Max compatibility will be a bit smaller, but at the risk of not being able to be used by apps, like Lightroom.

TIFF can save EVERYTHING a PSD can save including layers, paths, channels, transparency, annotations and can go up to 4 GIGS in file size. TIFF can save all the color spaces PSD can. The ONLY thing I can think of that PSD can save that currently TIFF can't save is if you Save out of Camera Raw a cropped PSD, you can uncrop the PSD in Photoshop CS, CS2 or 3. That's one tiny obscure thing that PSD can do that TIFF currently doesn't. How many people even knew that let alone use it?

PSD used to be the preferred file format back before Adobe bastardized it for the Creative Suite. The moment that happened, PSD ceased to be a Photoshop "native" file format. PSB is the new Photoshop "native" file format for images beyond 30,000 pixels. And , at the moment, only Photoshop can open a PSB.

Getting back to the fist point, Adobe can do anything including stopping support for PSD because it's a proprietary file format. TIFF is public, even if it's owned by Adobe (by virtue of the Aldus purchase). Even if Adobe went belly up tomorrow, TIFF would continue.

And, let me be blunt, anybody who thinks PSD is "better" than TIFF is ignorant of the facts. If Adobe would let them, the Photoshop engineers would tell you to quit using PSD. Lightroom for the first beta did NOT support PSD and Hamburg fought tooth and nail to prevent having to accept PSD. He blinked, but you still can't import a PSD without Max compat enabled-which basically makes it a TIFF with a PSD extension.

Look, I'll make it REAL simple...

TIFF = Good
PSD = Bad

Ok?"

So----this got me to wondering--and I'm still a bit flummoxed by this.

Diane
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Diane,

It's a question of faith/religion. If you believe in the honesty/integrity/the wonder of Adobe, then worship at their feet. If you want to store (more or less processed) images and be able to worship possibly better gods in future, or send images to those who now worship gods other than Adobe, then use tiff. ..... and then, you can factor in dng ;-)

Well, not quite. Tiff was not invented by Adobe, so there is a major consideration of nih syndrome on Adobe's part. Although Tiff format is open, and afaik endorsed/used by usa gov, it does not store so much of the editing history as psd or dng, it is probably more correct to say that much of the tiff image display software does not know how to/bother to use that information.

If Tiff stores what you want, and you have trust in your raw files longevity's, then I see no requirement whatsoever for wanting anything else. If you intend always using Adobe software, and believe that they will be around for as long as is needed, then their proprietary system will be fine.

I think Jeff has it right, except there are possible circumstances where Adobe could be good, but imnsho, that is only short term - How long did they want tiff, before psd, then psd to psb, now all to dng, etc.

If you remember gif was proprietary (and licensed). It was not very popular, but in some situations is far far better than jpeg. It is a question of belief.

Best wishes,

Ray

PS(shades of the 'monkees' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfYDnXMRmUs - not ??, but I guess our young cap'n Nicolas may smile.... OT of course by now)
 

Marc Hankins

New member
This is a really interesting read, being the ignorant I am, I only realised TIFF files could actually save layer information a few months ago, but I was never sure to what extent how much of this information was saved. I had assumed layer information was a software dependent piece of information, so yeah, I saved PSD files for photomanips and TIFF for high quality flattened files. Now i might save TIFF files only instead. I'll at least mix 'n' match and experiment.

Thanks guys for the info.

(p.s. I do find it annoying how PS *always* defaults the file type to PSD files, I'd rather it defaulted to the opened files file type and warned every time if the file was to be flattened for compatibility)
 
Very informative thread. After having saved files as Tiffs for many years, I changed to the psd format as saves were quicker and files smaller. From the quote in Diane Fields' post, there seems ample reason to revert to Tiffs. Sobering.
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
I would caution you to believe everything Jeff says, especially on the LL forum. While he is incredibly bright and has probably forgotten more bout digital imaging than I'll ever know, he is also at times a knee-jerk reactionary on the LL forum: He tends to take a contra position at odd times, like he's feeling cranky, and this may be one of them. I suspect it is an issue he pushed for a long time ago, switching to standardised file format, and lost. I also suspect that PSD/B may go away at some point in the future and a form of DNG will replace it. But to be sure, Adobe will give us ample warning and include readability and import of "old" PSD/B files for a long time to come. Moreover, let's not forget that Adobe only recently added PSB to accomodate very large files. I doubt the standard will disappear anytime soon...

To summarize, I am with madman on this --- PSD/B's save a lot faster than layered tiffs, especially when very large. So that's what I use unless I began in tiff from the raw converter, where I then leave it as a tiff because I'm too lazy to convert it. So in reality, I use both/either without much concern.

Cheers,
 
Jack,

Another sobering post. Switching directions in mid-air, this bleating sheep is going to hit a comforting bottle (but not vintage Woolite). Many thanks for your tactful viewpoint.
 

Greg Rogers

New member
Me too, Jack. Thanks for adding a balancing opinion. I've been tending to save as TIFF since upgrade to CS3 and thinking about reverting after reading your post. Sluggishness and file sizes beginning to get on my nerves as well. Save some Woolite for me please, Ralph.

Cheers,
Greg
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
PS: The hidden crop thing is actually quite useful too --- note that when you crop in CS, you have an option to "hide". What this does is just that --- hides instead of deletes the edges cropped and you can recapture later.

Sidebar: That said, I personally don't use hide. Instead I tend to keep everything (unless it's absolute crap that needs permanenet removal anyway). In my workflow, I don't usually crop until the end, just before sizing for output, so my base layered file usually has all the original image anyway. The reason I do this is to allow custom fit to the aspect ratio I'm outputting to; standard web is 3:4, many papers are 2:3 or 4:5, and having the "extra image stuff" to work with is a nice benefit for that. Just food for thought...
 
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