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  #1  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 07:40 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Default $7k 22MP DIGITAL BACK from Mamiy

http://mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2127

This just came out a $7k 22MP Digital back from Mamiya !


Quote:

"The New Mamiya ZD digital back has been exclusively designed for the Mamiya 645AFD II and the New RZ67 Pro IID medium format cameras. The Mamiya ZD digital back provides full camera and back communication via its MSC (Mamiya Serial Communication) data transfer.

The Mamiya ZD digital back offers a 36mm x 48mm Dalsa CCD 22 mega pixel image capture sensor that is nearly 6x4.5cm. With its CF and SD storage options, built-in 1.8 inch LCD imaging preview screen and tethered FireWire (IEEE1394) to Mamiya Digital Photo Studio software it provides the perfect solution for studio and/or on-location shoots.

The Mamiya ZD Back was designed with the user in mind. From the icon-based white balance settings, to the ability to shoot at 1.2 frames per second, to the option of controlling the camera through a computer, the Mamiya ZD Digital Back provides the features and tools needed to easily produce beautiful images. To make this experience even easier, Mamiya will include Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom™ with all ZD Backs. Street price of the Mamiya ZD Back is $6,999."
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  #2  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 08:17 AM
Ray West Ray West is offline
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And this is the back, that comes with the body and the lens that is mentioned by Peter in here. http://tinyurl.com/2dlapr

the sums work out about right - system, - camera+lens+back for about $10k
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  #3  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 08:24 AM
Ray West Ray West is offline
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Are they buying or selling????

Quote:
36mm x 48mm Dalsa CCD 22 mega pixel image capture sensor that is nearly 6x4.5cm.
1728 sq mm is _NOT_ nearly 2700, its just over half the area, if they want to be that accurate ;-)

Like I said elsewhere - cropped...

Best wishes,

Ray
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  #4  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 10:13 AM
Steve Saunders Steve Saunders is offline
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Sounds very affordable all the same. 22MP on that sized sensor means nice big pixels and the possibility of low noise at high-ISO.
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  #5  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 11:16 AM
elliot_n elliot_n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray West View Post
1728 sq mm is _NOT_ nearly 2700, its just over half the area, if they want to be that accurate ;-)

Like I said elsewhere - cropped...

Best wishes,

Ray
On film, Mamiya 645AF gives an image 42mm x 56mm = 2352 sq mm

Mamiya ZD back: 36mm x 48mm = 1728 sq mm

So cropped, but not that much...

Elliot
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  #6  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 11:43 AM
Klaus Esser Klaus Esser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leonardobarreto.com View Post
http://mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2127

This just came out a $7k 22MP Digital back from Mamiya !


Quote:

"The New Mamiya ZD digital back has been exclusively designed for the Mamiya 645AFD II and the New RZ67 Pro IID medium format cameras. The Mamiya ZD digital back provides full camera and back communication via its MSC (Mamiya Serial Communication) data transfer.

The Mamiya ZD digital back offers a 36mm x 48mm Dalsa CCD 22 mega pixel image capture sensor that is nearly 6x4.5cm. With its CF and SD storage options, built-in 1.8 inch LCD imaging preview screen and tethered FireWire (IEEE1394) to Mamiya Digital Photo Studio software it provides the perfect solution for studio and/or on-location shoots.

The Mamiya ZD Back was designed with the user in mind. From the icon-based white balance settings, to the ability to shoot at 1.2 frames per second, to the option of controlling the camera through a computer, the Mamiya ZD Digital Back provides the features and tools needed to easily produce beautiful images. To make this experience even easier, Mamiya will include Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom™ with all ZD Backs. Street price of the Mamiya ZD Back is $6,999."
The back never was released!

best, Klaus
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  #7  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 12:39 PM
elliot_n elliot_n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus Esser View Post
The back never was released!

best, Klaus
Huh?

It has just been released.

The first ZD backs will be in the UK on Monday.

Elliot
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  #8  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 12:47 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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"The back never was released!

best, Klaus"

That is the point, it seams as if they are releasing it now at $7k

The one disadvantage of the ZD -- and probably the ZD back --is that the color depth is not 16bits as the other digital backs are. Probably photographers that can afford the Leaf/Imacon/P1 will not downgrade even if it means big savings.

Then there is the ability -- or lack of -- to market the product. So far Mamiya has been very low key in the promotion of the ZD. On top of this we don't even know if this is going to be available for the USA market at all.

I like the idea of a detachable back because cleaning the sensor is so much easier, and all the moving parts are in the cheeper part of the system.

It would be interesting to see a 17MP model at Canon prices --including body--. With the bigger sensor it could give nicer bouquet and sell lots of Mamiya gear and capture consumers from the 35mm camp.
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  #9  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 03:13 PM
Klaus Esser Klaus Esser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elliot_n View Post
Huh?

It has just been released.

The first ZD backs will be in the UK on Monday.

Elliot
let´s see . . . :-)

best, Klaus
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  #10  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 04:14 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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To get a better current back, a used Leaf, Sinar, Imacon, Phhase or other, what would you choose over the ZD back for $7,000 to $9,000? Also do these used backs count for the MFR's upgrade programs?

Asher
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  #11  
Old June 2nd, 2007, 04:55 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Asher, mine is upgradable.

The question about if go after a new ZD or used other is precisely the interesting thing about this. The ZD will exert pressure "upstairs" to the 30k backs and downstairs to the Canon since 7k is about what you pay for a 1DsMk2, but you have to consider the 16bit and other factors... and back performance ... and if it is available or not..

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  #12  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 01:52 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elliot_n View Post
On film, Mamiya 645AF gives an image 42mm x 56mm = 2352 sq mm

Mamiya ZD back: 36mm x 48mm = 1728 sq mm

So cropped, but not that much...

Elliot
Well that's a bit of a difference, but still twice the Canon FF (24x36mm)!
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  #13  
Old June 4th, 2007, 03:42 AM
Frank Doorhof Frank Doorhof is offline
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I'm at the same crossroads I guess.
I wanted to wait for the 1DsMKIII but MF is also calling :D

12 bits is a problem but for the pricing I guess a 645ProIIAF with the Back is a wonderful upgrade path, start with this back and save money to upgrade later on.
I think it's a much better solution than the ZD camera.
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  #14  
Old June 4th, 2007, 06:04 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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I am curios about the new 28mm, but information is hard to get.

I suppose that such a lens will have some barrel distortion, but with LensFix and PS3 barrel correction software the lens could be perfect for architectural and interior photography.

It is probably good time to shop for demo and second hand 645AFD gear, and wait for the back. The AFD II is --by the way-- in all respects the same camera as the AFD but for a somewhat improved AF system.

The ZD had some IQ issues though, so I would wait for two things: images from independent photographers and comments from first users before ordering one.

On the other side, there are probably a few people with 645 and RZ systems for whom $7k is an attractive price in to DMF.
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  #15  
Old June 4th, 2007, 06:44 AM
marc wilson marc wilson is offline
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The zd did have issues but users have reported very good results when used within it's limits..i.e. at low iso.
The zd back is likely to be the same but allows this well priced digital mf option to those who prefer the modular mf systems and the ability to use a back on view cameras.

Perhaps it may not be quite at the quality of 22mp backs from leaf or phase etc but then the prices are very different so what it does is good..it allows another option for those who prefer the mf cameras over 35mm style but do not need, or wish, or simply can't afford the more expensive rectangular format backs.

For instance for those that do not need the speed an agility of a 35mm dslr but do want the image quality equal to at least 645 film then this represents a very good option..as does the zd camera for those wanting the slr style body and 645 film quality. (I for one will happily swap my 5d and mamiya 7 for a zd style all in one camera when it is of good enough quality to rival 67 film at large print sizes.)

Marc
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  #16  
Old June 5th, 2007, 09:44 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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I spoke with a dealer from a mayor store here in New York about the ZD digital back from Mamiya and he said that they "postponed" the release of the back for "a few months".

This is not a good omen for the back and it is frustrating, to say the least, to maintain a product on permanent state of release-postponement.
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  #17  
Old June 5th, 2007, 10:15 AM
Klaus Esser Klaus Esser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leonardobarreto.com View Post
I spoke with a dealer from a mayor store here in New York about the ZD digital back from Mamiya and he said that they "postponed" the release of the back for "a few months".

This is not a good omen for the back and it is frustrating, to say the least, to maintain a product on permanent state of release-postponement.
Hi Leo!

Now that´s really funny . . because
"It has just been released.
The first ZD backs will be in the UK on Monday."

Do the Japanese prefer the uk? Old colonial bindings or so?

sorry, elliot . . . ;-) - couldn´t hold back with that . . ;-)

best to all, Klaus
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  #18  
Old June 5th, 2007, 10:17 AM
Klaus Esser Klaus Esser is offline
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". . when it is of good enough quality to rival 67 film at large print sizes."

it´s not.

best, Klaus
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  #19  
Old June 5th, 2007, 11:48 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Doorhof View Post
I'm at the same crossroads I guess.
I wanted to wait for the 1DsMKIII but MF is also calling :D

12 bits is a problem but for the pricing I guess a 645ProIIAF with the Back is a wonderful upgrade path, start with this back and save money to upgrade later on.
I think it's a much better solution than the ZD camera.
Hi Frank,

According to my best total input from possible sources including those beamed down from my headquarters on the dark side of the moon, whose location I cannot disclose, the 1DsIII will appear not before November 2007 and probably next spring.

The 1DsII is very much the camera to be marketed all the way to the end of the year, I believe.

If you are earning money then the 1DsII you know it will pay for itself, but you likely have at least one already.

The 1DsIII will be 16 BIT by the time it comes out and that integration might be incomplete or else getting the 1DIII to the market and looking for feedback on the first 1000 shipped, as usual, might be what they wait for. However, the major reason is, I think the delay for optimization of a totally rebuilt flagship DSLR.

The 1DIII is still in it's infancy a far as public use. Rigorous use will, no doubt provide information that should firm up the final 1DIII after they have been retested, I expect.

Now if Nikon came out next week with an 18MP Pro DSLR, the 1DsIII would no doubt be announced shortly afterwards and would ship withing 3 months.

The 1DIII was held back a year since there was no wind coming from behind Canon! Now, the 1DIII with the 1DsII cover their market very well.

If the new Mamyia really takes away wedding, glamor and editorial photographers, then no doubt, Canon will move things up for hte 1DsIII or whatever they call it or even surprise us with a new system! It is in Canon's interest to just keep fine tuning their flagship model and "keeping their powder dry", so to speak. Every month they can delay the finalization of their new flagship means a better product to lead the pack.

When the Mamiya back comes out, I'd try it against the 1Ds II and another back for comparison on the exact same set up. You alone can decide on how it fits with your work and cash flow.

When you test it, I hope you will report it here first! :)

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; June 6th, 2007 at 05:50 AM.
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  #20  
Old June 6th, 2007, 12:45 AM
Paul Bestwick Paul Bestwick is offline
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Asher,

most interesting post going here. I have a question. Are you able to explain how 16 bit will impact my images relative to what I currently get out of my 1DSMKlll. I must confess total ignorance on this matter.

Cheers,

Paul
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  #21  
Old June 6th, 2007, 06:11 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bestwick View Post
Asher,

most interesting post going here. I have a question. Are you able to explain how 16 bit will impact my images relative to what I currently get out of my 1DSMKlll. I must confess total ignorance on this matter.

Cheers,

Paul
Paul,

As you know, the 16 BIT images are the end conversion for us to work in our own imag processor such as PS. The actual data derived from the CMOS chip will most likely be 14 BIT, which I think may be 13 BIT.

The quality depends not just on the number of BITS therefore the possible levels of luminence recorded and the colors demonstrated, but aso on the quality of the sensels, the inherent noise, the algorithms and quality of the circuitry, the added noise and such. Then the noise removal and optimizastion based on what the MFR knows about its lenses or camera system that they dont release such as the IR and low pass filters.

So, since Canon is already way up there, it's likey, but not certain that the larger image image will be at least as good as the 1DsII and even better. The use of thinner low pass filters may be an issue. There may be new problems.

The Mamiya has been released as the ZD and already Mamyia has had feedback. They might have updated the system sufficently for the backs to be improved. Since the sensels are larger, it's possible that the Mamiya back, although more humble than the expected 1DsIII in technology, perhaps, should hold its own. Still it's also a matter of style.

When I look back at Neil Turner's original Canon 30D editorial portraits and what Benjamin has achieved with a Digital Rebel and the Pentax K10D, I do not think we are at this time limited by Megapixels rather than how the whole system paints the image, or the "look". So that would be the skin rendered by a Nikon versus a Leaf or a Canon, or else a steel facing of a modern archtectural building in Bahrain or blue sky with a Phase One compared to a Leaf. Futher, the writing of the lens will be different for a Zeiss v. Schneider or Rodenstock, classic of digitar.

If you're satisfying your standards and your clients, then you can wait! Meanwhile, every so often, we couls perhaps shoot different camera with the same subject. Otherwise, we're working with the accepted approach of DPReview and buying our paint brushes based on the length, textile strength and other important aspects of the fibers.

If one is earning money, a safe bet is Leonardo's route with a used Phase One, Sinar or Leaf back and a Mamiya camera system. The lenses are stellar and the pixels are already well regarded by pros. If you are earning even more, then you can afford the new flagship models.

The Mamiya for me is a warrantied sytem for larger prints.

Asher
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  #22  
Old June 6th, 2007, 06:30 AM
marc wilson marc wilson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus Esser View Post
". . when it is of good enough quality to rival 67 film at large print sizes."

it´s not.

best, Klaus
Hence the 'when' Klaus!

In the meantime its still film for the print sales and project work for me.

Marc
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  #23  
Old June 6th, 2007, 02:23 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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A 22MP back is much better than 120 film, don't listen to Klaus, he is a romantic --like most germans-- and wants film to survive, but it is kaputt... :-) (I mean, film)
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  #24  
Old June 6th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Anyone else sniffed this Mamiya back? Aslo is there any info on differences between the ZD and the ZD back?

Asher
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