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In Perspective, Fun: How do you interpret the Luminous Landscape Shootout?

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Once again there's a surprising evaluation article on the prestigious Luminous Landscape website. It's called "a shootout".

The hallmark of LL reviews is usability! Does this review work for you?

Asher
 

Alain Briot

pro member
The new Pentax digital is a good buy. That basically sums it up for me. Just a few thousands more than a 1DsMk3, but vastly superior in image quality (larger sensor, larger photo sites, no antialiasing filter, larger bit depth, higher resolution). It will be interesting to see the reaction of Canon and Nikon, as well as Phase and Hasselblad.
 

Alain Briot

pro member
So what real camera will it have more bit depth than?

Those that have less than 14 bit....

Can you define what is a "real camera" ? Or, if you prefer, what is a "non-real camera" ? My cameras are all real, but then again I may be mistaken?

FYI nearly all 35mm are 12 bit or less. Those that claim to have 14 bit use oversampling to go from 12 to 14. On the other hand some digital backs do go above 14bit.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Those that have less than 14 bit....

Can you define "real camera" ? Or, if you prefer "non-real camera".

Alain,

The elephant in the room is the 1Ds Mark III. One cannot take pictures with a 40 MP camera and then reduce the image size to match that of a 35 mm sensor and talk about the MF being superior. Of course the images will look sharper! Rather one needs to look at the functionality of a tool for a job.

One does get a lot more imaging real estate for detail-rich landscapes without so much need for stitching! In that case, it's a winner.

Asher
 

Will Thompson

Well Known Member
Well Alain Every Canon and Nikon SLR for the last several generations has been 14 bit? Are not all serious contenders 14 bit?

So again Alain what other cameras will not have the same bit depth???
 
Alain,

The elephant in the room is the 1Ds Mark III. One cannot take pictures with a 40 MP camera and then reduce the image size to match that of a 35 mm sensor and talk about the MF being superior. Of course the images will look sharper! Rather one needs to look at the functionality of a tool for a job.

The Canon 1Ds III (and the newer Nikon D3x) is more like a hornet to the MF manufacturers. It hurts them because it challenges their price performance ratios, in a much more versatile form factor (including Live View capability). That doesn't mean that MF is not capable of higher quality, but that extra comes at a hefty price / depreciation.

One does get a lot more imaging real estate for detail-rich landscapes without so much need for stitching! In that case, it's a winner.

More sensor real estate is almost always useful for slower paced high quality output. One of the most overlooked benefits is that a higher on sensor optical magnification will utilize a better part (lower spatial frequencies) of the system MTF curve. The better MTF (assuming top quality lenses) will have a significant impact on image quality compared to smaller sensor arrays.

The Pentax pricing will shake up things further, although I'm not sure that the lens line-up is good enough to cause an exodus.

Bart
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Alain,

FYI nearly all 35mm are 12 bit or less. Those that claim to have 14 bit use oversampling to go from 12 to 14.
Could you please tell us what you mean by that?

"Oversampling" in digital processing ordinarily refers to sampling a quantity at a higher rate (temporal or spatial) than required for its bandwidth (as we do, in fact, when we digitize an image with a sensor having a pitch finer than corresponds to the "resolution" of the image as delivered by the lens). That does not seem to be what you are speaking of, especially since that is not describable in bits.

Sometimes the term is (inappropriately) used to mean to take a digital quantity with a certain precision (described as the number of bits needed to represent a quantity with that precision) and represent it in a greater number of bits. I suspect that is how you use the term.

A decimal analogy would be a digital thermometer that had a precision of 0.1°C but whose output was stated to three decimal points (such as 36.900°C 37.000°C, 37.100°C, etc.).

In digital information processing that can happen, for example, if we take an input quantity represented by an 8-bit number but store it as a 16-bit number to make it fit in with our processing architecture, or to prepare to carry the results of mathematical operations on the data to a higher precision (mitigating the effects of rounding error, etc.). Many digital cameras, in processing the digitized sensor output data, represent the values in a higher number of bits than the number of bits in the ADC output to enhance the precision of intermediate results.

But when a camera is described as having a "14-bit" sensor system, the intimation is that this is the bit depth of the ADC output. (It may well be that such cameras actually represent the data in15- or even 16-bit form in processing.)

(In fact, the precision of their digitized sensor outputs is very slightly less than 14 bits, as they do not use the entire range potential of a 14-bit number, owing to black level offset and white level limitation. But certainly not 12 bits.)

Are you saying that so-called "14-bit" cameras (such as all or at least most current Canon EOS-series bodies) have a precision of their digitized sensor outputs of 12 bits but that the values are nevertheless represented as 14 bit numbers?

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
As we have seen, we encounter a conundrum in trying to compare the "image quality" (perhaps subjective) of two cameras with images of different pixel dimensions.

Let me suggest, in the abstract, without reference to any of the dogs in this catfight (to mix a metaphor), a way we might deal with that dilemma.

I will use as a model an approach that involves the making of prints. I do not mean to suggest that doing so should be part of our actual "evaluation" protocol; it just serves to illuminate the principles involved. It is in fact an idealistic model, one that we probably couldn't fulfill even if we wanted to.

Suppose we have/do this:

• The two cameras regard the same scene with identical framing. That of course means that the lenses that are involved in the comparison have appropriate focal lengths, which the lenses we wanted to use might not. It also assumes that the two cameras produce images of identical aspect ratio. (If that's not true in the real case, we can fairly readily deal with that. But not right now.)

• We next print the images from the two cameras to the same size. We do this with a printing chain whose resolution capability does not become limiting for either image (that is, has higher pixel dimensions in the print than the pixel dimensions of either source
image). This will of course require, for both prints, mediation between the pixel dimensions of the image and those of the print. We assume this mediation to be done by the "best available" interpolation algorithm.

• We then give the two prints to our panel and have them opine on the image quality (in any senses of that we care to ask about). The viewers may, if they wish, concentrate on a small region, perhaps by using a hand magnifier. But in fact their observations there may be misleading - two images that seem to have the same quality when examined at a "normal" angular size may not reveal the same properties when a small region is magnified. And this in fact is one of the central conundrums of image inspection. ("This one is clearly the best image. Why does this little piece of it look worse under the magnifier?")

Funny, it works that way for models.

Since the ultimate purpose of a camera, in general, is to produce an image in "viewable" form, it would seem as if this fanciful process would be the basis for "meaningful" comparison.

Now it is tempting to say, "but, but, camera X has a larger sensor", or "camera Y has greater bit depth out of the ADC." But this is really like, "I really like Michelle's pudding better, but you have to keep in mind that she mixes hers with a Kitchen Aid K-45, but André mixes his with a K-55".

[Michelle is well-advised. The bowl of a K-55 will not stand up by itself on the countertop, rather a nuisance in the overall scheme of pudding-making.]​

Of course, in our context, we can hardly rely on sending around stacks of prints to allow these comparisons to be made by our cadre. So let's see how we can transform this model to a a paperless version.

I'll start by retaining the original presumption of equal framing of the subject.

Then I suggest the following. Take each of the two source images and "uprez" both of them to the same pixel dimensions (greater than for either of them originally). Do this with the "best available" interpolation algorithm.

Then examine them both (in their entirety) on-screen at the same size. This is probably best done with a fairly large screen.

Period.

Now, how about looking at "crops" of each?

Well, if the crops have the same "angular magnification" that we would experience when looking at our prints under "standard" conditions, OK. (This in effect gives us a larger virtual screen than our actual screen.)

But if the "magnification" of the crops is significantly greater than that, we get into trouble. We noted above that differences seen there may not have the same implications as when viewing the whole image. And if our object is to compare "delivered image quality", we can only do this in a "normal viewing" context.

If we are trying to evaluate the quality of two full-sized copies of Michelangelo's "David", as complete pieces of art, we dare not do it with a magnifying glass.

On the other hand, if we are interested in looking for traces of the different effects that a K-45 and K-55 mixer have on the particles of the pudding. . .

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug,

My approach would be to set tasks. for example we are to photograph a richly decorated Versailles Palace. Here we could take a 5DII and stitch images to ~ match the pixels per square meter. We'd use the same focal length. today stitching is no big deal. There are many programs to choose from.

Now if you add cloud to the picture, then the stitching program could handle that, just about. however add people and the MF setup would have a clear advantage. However, with more time a=one can still match the quality.

If the pixels size is similar, then as Bart intimates, the MTF curves will be addressed similarly.

So it all boils down to immediate convenience and the need to dedicate a particular discrimination in detail for presentation. Always, down-ressing a large file will decrease noise and increase apparent detail and accutence.

If one needs more detail-rich images regularly, then the extra real estate for the same size pixels and same quality AD converters is likely to be ~ equivalent, given software processing is always improving and competitive.

I for one will give up detail in clouds and steel structures to get the architecture image in less shots. Why not? So I'm moving from a 24mm TSE to an 8mm Sigma circular fisheye as it can do a perfectly adequate job in 80% of my needs. for extra detail I stitch a longer focal length. For people I take them with a 70-200 and pop them in the picture.

Now with a Pentax digital, I might be able to do that in one go. However, I doubt that the Pentax will give a better quality image for printing than my assembled one. So to me, at least, it's a matter of economics.

Asher
 

Alain Briot

pro member
Doug, Bart,

16 bit seems to be more what sets digital backs apart. So at 14bit, a back isn't that different bit wise than the best 35mm such as 1Dsmk3 and D3x.

Now back to what those "real cameras" are! ;-)
 

Alain Briot

pro member
Doug, Apparently, not all information on the web is accurate - shocking ;-) Thank you for your detailed explanations.
 
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