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Just between us gearheads - Manfrotto 410

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
I have for some while wanted a really nice three-axis geared tripod head, thinking in terms of architectural and equipment shots. macro work, and of course the infamous test shots that you know are the most prominent output of the studio here.

In honor of my 74th birthday (in about two weeks), Carla, in cahoots with some of her family, bought me a Manfrotto 410 geared head (the one they call the "Junior"). It is lovely, and only really warrants the moniker "Junior" if you're an 5x7 shooter or better.

We see it here atop my trusty Sunset tripod (from 1972 - it was bought the day William Rehnquist, later to be chief justice, was appointed to the US Supreme court), supporting an EOS 40D with an EF 24-105 f4.0L USM:

Manfrotto_410_E35910R.jpg

Douglas A. Kerr: Manfrotto 410

The mount is well made and very sturdy and rigid, but is not bulky, and weighs less than 4 lbs.

Each of the three axes has a nice, rubber-covered adjustment knob, with a ratio of 7.5° per turn. Behind each is a spring-loaded 4-leaf thumbwheel, which when rotated clockwise disengages the worm gear for that movement, allowing free movement on that axis. When released, the worm again engages. The increment between points of worm re-engagement is 7.5°.

The yaw axis movement is continuous. The roll axis range is to slightly over 90° to the left, slightly over 30° to the right. The pitch axis range is to slightly over 30° up (some find that a bit cramping), slightly over 90° down. The geometry is the customary roll on top of pitch. There is a solid stop at each end of the roll and pitch range. There is no play in the movements - the worms are spring loaded against the worm wheels and axially, and there is no axis wobble.

Each axis is provided with a nice angle scale, calibrated in 1° increments. But sadly they are not equipped with any sort of precision fiducial - just a little white dot several mm back from the scale.

There is a small circular spirit level that shows camera attitude.

The head has an integral Manfrotto H2 system quick release base, and comes with one plate.

The bottom of the head has a 3/6-16 female thread for attachment to the tripod. No 1/4-20 adapter bushing is provided. My tripod has a 1/4-20 interface to the head, but fortunately I had a spare adapter bushing in stock.

The provided H2 plate has both 1/4-20 and 3/8-16 fixing screws, with secure storage spots for the one not in use. Unlike the Manfrotto R2 system plates, they do not have little bails to help tighten them, so one must often resort to the "coin slot" with which they are provided.

The H2 locking system is tight and reliable. A safety catch on the release lever must be depressed before it can be actually disengaged. When the plate is removed, a locking plunger keeps the locking lever retracted. When the plate is again put in place, and is fully seated, it trips the plunger and the locking lever snaps home.

Carla, after reading some reviews by users of the head, said that it would in fact probably be quite good as our general-purpose head, not just for "gear-head" shots (however you would want to take that). She was quite right. (Ah, the wisdom of the Cherokee!) It is so easy to move quickly to the desired position, with the convenient thumb-releasing movements, that there is no reason not to use it for general work.

Overall, I am delighted by this lovely machine, and of course gratified by the thoughtfulness of Carla and her family in giving it to me.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
It's a terrific head for copy and other precision work. And it's easy enough to bolt on an Arca-compatible clamp...

081030-Bogen410-01.jpg

Nill
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So Nill, do you have one too? Would you use it for an large format?

It's interesting and seems like a great way to have control of one's shooting platform.

Asher
 
Would you use it for an large format?

Hi Asher,

It depends on the weight of your camera+lens.

I have a geared Manfrotto 405 geared head with a load capacity of 7.5kg, the 410 "Junior" has a load capacity of 5kg, and there is a 400 geared head rated for 10kg payloads. The 400 and 405 are big and heavy, so less suited for mobile work, unless the load capacity is required for stability.

These geared heads really shine if you need precise alignment, macro or reproduction work are obvious candidates. Architecture is another area where one can really speed up things like getting the verticals tamed (a high precision level will help in that process, although it won't automatically correct for sensor rotation).

The geared heads also do fine as general use tripod heads, perhaps a bit heavier than some simpler designs. The simpler designs ofter have some creep when being tightened which can be frustrating for precision work.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Asher it's a fairly beefy piece of kit; the "Junior" appellation is deceptive. If by "large format" you mean something like a Phase back, then I think it would probably suffice without any real difficulty. If you mean an 8x10 view camera, then I'd say you'll want to move up a model or two.

Nill
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

The 410 head does perfectly well with a 4x5 Crown Graphic:

Manfrotto_410_E35912R.jpg

Douglas A. Kerr: Manfrotto 410 gear head

The rig is rigid and stable.

(Sorry there's no sync cord on the flash for this shot!)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Off topic, but since you mentioned the synch cord, will the Copal shutter triggered by a pocket wizard reliably?

Should do but I'd though I'd ask our in-house engineer!

Asher
 

Ken Tanaka

pro member
Doug's shot with that pristine Crown Graphic wins the prize here. (Do you use that camera Doug? It looks like it's in mint condition, at least cosmetically. I almost bought one last year.)

But here's my 410 head mounted on my Manfrotto 058B Triaut tripod carrying the Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID. This is an unbeatable setup for accurate studio-type shooting.

123884802.jpg
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Ken,

Doug's shot with that pristine Crown Graphic wins the prize here. (Do you use that camera Doug? It looks like it's in mint condition, at least cosmetically. I almost bought one last year.)
No, its for static exhibit only. But we spent a lot of time on getting it in its current condition. It has a sync solenoid on it plus a sync shutter, so it can be used in either modality (and I have all the cords for either). (A common usage was with the shutter firing the flash, but the red button on the flash holder tripping the solenoid to start the whole process - it's in a handier place to push than the on-body cable release.)

But here's my 410 head mounted on my Manfrotto 058B Triaut tripod carrying the Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID. This is an unbeatable setup for accurate studio-type shooting.

That is lovely.

I see you have the 410 set up for pitch-over-roll. Do find that better for your work than the roll-over-pitch usage that is implied by the "to lens" marking on the quick-release plate?

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ken,

I have the Manfrotto 475B, 3236 max load 26.6 lb as yours but it comes in at just 9.5 lb so it's lighter. I used it for the Gigapan Robot.

I notice the red tags at the top of the tripod itself, bur can't find the function. It's missing
from mine.

BG475B.JPG


Adorama: Manfrotto 475B

Asher
 

Nill Toulme

New member
...I see you have the 410 set up for pitch-over-roll. Do find that better for your work than the roll-over-pitch usage that is implied by the "to lens" marking on the quick-release plate?
I have mine set up the same way. I tried briefly to follow the "to lens" marking on the plate, and it buffaloed me completely.

081030-Bogen410-02.jpg

Nill
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Nill, Ken,

I have mine set up the same way. I tried briefly to follow the "to lens" marking on the plate, and it buffaloed me completely.

081030-Bogen410-02.jpg

Ordinarily in this kind of three-axis head, one wants the movements roll over pitch over yaw.

With the top movement used for roll, that means that, no matter what the elevation (pitch) setting is, movement around the roll axis rotates the camera around an axis parallel to the lens axis. Thus, unless we are working at very short distances, a roll adjustment (as for example to properly align with the horizon) does not change the point of aim - even if the camera is aimed up or down in elevation (pitch).

You are using what is intended to be the roll movement for pitch (elevation). What would normally be the pitch movement now causes something like roll, but not exactly (if the camera is pitched up or down). It rotates the rest of the mount and the camera around a horizontal axis, not necessarily around the lens axis (or one parallel to it).

It's really only a matter of taste.

Nill, I'm not sure why following the normal (and "indicated") arrangement wouldn't work for you. But perhaps sometimes the camera can't be put on the plate in a desirable way following that directive. For example, I don't mount my cameras on RC2 plates the way that is recommended, but of course then I put the RC2 base on the head to match, so the head axes work correctly.

On the 410 head, the "normal" arrangement puts the yaw (pan) knob to the right as you face the way the camera is aimed (as seen in both my pix).

Best regards,

Doug
 

Ken Tanaka

pro member
I see you have the 410 set up for pitch-over-roll. Do find that better for your work than the roll-over-pitch usage that is implied by the "to lens" marking on the quick-release plate?
Keen question, Doug. Actually, this is the only workable configuration for the RZ67 using the 410's plate directly (vs. mounting another plate above it) particularly if the left-side electronic shutter release / handle bracket is mounted (which it is, on the other side of the camera). Otherwise your fingers get pinched and certain fidgets are hard to use.

But where are you getting the Polaroid film, if that's the tab showing of a Polaroid pack??

Asher
More keen eyes! Yes, actually, that is a Polaroid back mounted in this image. I have a dwindling supply of both color and b&w Polaroid film that I'm finishing. Some of the color packs are out of date but with Polaroid..who would know or care! I like it best stale. I also sometimes use Fuji instant film with this camera.

I notice the red tags at the top of the tripod itself, bur can't find the function. It's missing
from mine.
And yet more keen eyes! The red tabs are quick-releases for the leg extensions. It makes the job of adjusting the apex height, and individual leg lengths, very smooth.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
But where are you getting the Polaroid film, if that's the tab showing of a Polaroid pack??

Asher [/quote=Ken Tanaka]
More keen eyes! Yes, actually, that is a Polaroid back mounted in this image. I have a dwindling supply of both color and b&w Polaroid film that I'm finishing. Some of the color packs are out of date but with Polaroid..who would know or care! I like it best stale. I also sometimes use Fuji instant film with this camera.

Asher Kelman said:
I notice the red tags at the top of the tripod itself, bur can't find the function. It's missing
from mine.


QUOTE=Ken Tanaka;96632]And yet more keen eyes! The red tabs are quick-releases for the leg extensions. It makes the job of adjusting the apex height, and individual leg lengths, very smooth.

I wonder whether these can be added on. I may take mine back! When one is on a roof, whatever makes it easier, I want!

More keen eyes! Yes, actually, that is a Polaroid back mounted in this image. I have a dwindling supply of both color and b&w Polaroid film that I'm finishing. Some of the color packs are out of date but with Polaroid..who would know or care! I like it best stale. I also sometimes use Fuji instant film with this camera.

I have a limited supply of 8x10 color and my wife thought it would be safer to put them in the freezer like her dad used to do with all his B&W color film!!! I'm scared to look inside, LOL!

Asher
 

Ken Tanaka

pro member
The quick-release mechanism is part of the Triaut's engineering design. I can't imagine how it could be retro-fitted.

Hate to say it but freezing Polaroid film will ruin it. I've never used the sheet film but freezing smaller format packs bursts the chemical packets and also throws their chemistry into a spin. But, hey, give it a try anyway. What have you to lose? You may like the "damaged" effect.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
...
Nill, I'm not sure why following the normal (and "indicated") arrangement wouldn't work for you. But perhaps sometimes the camera can't be put on the plate in a desirable way following that directive. For example, I don't mount my cameras on RC2 plates the way that is recommended, but of course then I put the RC2 base on the head to match, so the head axes work correctly.
You know, it's been a while since I set it up, and I really can't remember, other than that trying to orient in accordance with the arrow on the plate flummoxed me entirely.

Nill
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Ken,

Keen question, Doug. Actually, this is the only workable configuration for the RZ67 using the 410's plate directly (vs. mounting another plate above it) particularly if the left-side electronic shutter release / handle bracket is mounted (which it is, on the other side of the camera). Otherwise your fingers get pinched and certain fidgets are hard to use.
I understand. As I mentioned, I have that same thing when using the Manfrotto RC2 system plates under EOS cameras, and have to put the camera on at 90° to the indicated direction. But since the QC base is not integral with the head, I can just put it on the head in the corresponding orientation to make the head axes work right (quite critical with a conventional pan-tilt head!)

With the 410 this matter is really only of trivial consequence for most work, given that the top two movements have the same kind of mechanism (even the same angular range).

Thanks for the fill-in.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Tricked out nicely, just as I need!. How many screws to stop it rotating?
If you are speaking about the head rotating on the tripod column, there is nothing on the head to stop that. Manfrotto tripods often have three screws in the column-top plate for that.

If you are speaking of the Arca-compatible clamp plate rotating on the top of the head, all that the head RC4 plate actually has is a conventional 1/4-20 or 3/6-16 tripod screw (with knurled head and coin slot).

But perhaps the clamp plate has some provision for indexing it to the RC4 plate on the head. Nill will know that.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Last edited:

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Doug,

Appreciate the insight on fitting the Arca Swiss plate. Do you have any knowledge of the 405 Geared head? My local store has that in stock. It's more expensive and about 5lb in weight. Maybe that's better for my 8x10 camera too. It comes in at $400 as opposed about $220.

It seems to have a different arrangement of the gears.

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,
Hi Doug,

Appreciate the insight on fitting the Arca Swiss plate. Do you have any knowledge of the 405 Geared head? My local store has that in stock. It's more expensive and about 5lb in weight. Maybe that's better for my 8x10 camera too. It comes in at $400 as opposed about $220.

It seems to have a different arrangement of the gears.

image
image
Manfotto 405, seen from "in front, to the left"
Manfrotto 410, seen from "behind, to the right"​

The knobs are in different locations, and are a little different style; the axis disengagement is with a round coaxial knob rather than a "thumbwheel".

But is conceptually the same, as near as I can see.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Hi Doug,

Appreciate the insight on fitting the Arca Swiss plate. Do you have any knowledge of the 405 Geared head? My local store has that in stock. It's more expensive and about 5lb in weight. Maybe that's better for my 8x10 camera too. It comes in at $400 as opposed about $220.

It seems to have a different arrangement of the gears.

Asher

Hi Asher,

The 405 has roll/rotate over pitch for the reasons Doug mentioned, when the camera is mounted as suggested, and indeed it is almost twice the price of the 410. It's big and beautiful ...

An Arca-Swiss style of clamp can be fitted to the QR-plate. The threaded RRS B2-Pro screw knob style clamp will fit the 3/8th" screw of the QR plate just fine.

As an alternative, I should mention the Fanotec/Nodal Ninja EZ-leveler II. This is more oriented towards panoramic use, but it does fine at that with it's rated 10 Kg load capacity. The leveling is limited to only a few degrees, so one needs to set-up the tripod for the majority of the leveling and then fine-tune with the EZ-leveler II. It's a very light weight and compact solution.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Bart,

As an alternative, I should mention the Fanotec/Nodal Ninja EZ-leveler II. This is more oriented towards panoramic use, but it does fine at that with it's rated 10 Kg load capacity. The leveling is limited to only a few degrees, so one needs to set-up the tripod for the majority of the leveling and then fine-tune with the EZ-leveler II. It's a very light weight and compact solution.
Well, a leveler certainly doesn't do anything that a geared head does.

But it could be very advantageous to have one under the geared head (so as to get the pan axis of the head truly vertical).

Best regards,

Doug

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi, Bart,


Well, a leveler certainly doesn't do anything that a geared head does.

But it could be very advantageous to have one under the geared head (so as to get the pan axis of the head truly vertical).

Best regards,

Doug

Doug


EZL-II-C-2.jpg


For $109 this is a big bargain and can hold 10 Kg!

Yes it would be great to level the 405 Manfrotto grared head.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

EZL-II-C-2.jpg


For $109 this is a big bargain and can hold 10 Kg!

Yes it would be great to level the 405 Manfrotto grared head.
Indeed.

Note that you might want to make some arrangement for a circular spirit level on the top plate of the leveler so you can see when it has done its job (disappointing it doesn't include one). (My usual pan-tilt head has a spirit level on its bottom layer, but I put that on!)

Once could also put one on the azimuth scale disc of the Manfrotto 410 (I'm not sure if the 405 has one - I can't tell from the only picture I have at hand at the moment.)

I may in fact do that!

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Ah, the 405 already has a spirit level on its bottom layer (what is needed to guide the use of the leveler):

1112307838_250x250_fig-8.jpg

as well as one on its topmost layer (camera attitude) (it can be seen in my earlier picture of the 405).

The 410 has a spirit level on its topmost layer (camera attitude) only (it can be seen in my earlier picture of the 410).

Interesting!

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug, Bart and Nill

I really appreciate sharing these insights. Mechanical platforms make the lenses we spend a lot on worth having. I'm seriously interested in the 405 and that leveling plate. Would be great for my 8x10, 5DII stage pictures and architecture with a Gigapan robot. A love well thought out gear!

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Six degrees of freedom

Full control over the "situation" of an object in three-dimensional space requires control of six parameters (the object is said to have "six degrees of freedom"). Most commonly, this is done with three "location" (Cartesian) parameters and three "attitude" (angular) parameters.

There are numerous ways in which these can be defined, a situation that essentially parallels our concern with the "order of stacking" of movements in our camera mounting arrangements.

For "table-top" macro work, I now arrange the six degrees of freedom for the camera by putting my Adorama two-axis macro rail unit atop my Manfrotto 410 geared head:

Manfrotto_410_F15506R.jpg

Here we have two of the Cartesian parameters on top (in the Adorama rail unit), three angular parameters under that (the Manfrotto head), and the third Cartesian parameter at the bottom (the geared elevator column on the tripod).

I will discuss the philosophical implications of this "stacking" later. Suffice it to say, it seems well suited to most of my work.

The whole setup is extremely stable, and well-behaved, mechanically with this camera/lens load.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
~ $400 plus tripod, not really a lot of $ to get that much freedom!

I's prefer that they gave an option of an Arca Swiss fitting. Each time one connects extra things there's another degree of potential looseness.

I use the well engineered Manfrotto stage and that works but I may switch to RRS so it's all in one.

Asher

Asher
 
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