Canon EOS 5D info please and JPeg compression query

I have more time today so thought I would take the opportunity to tell you a little more about myself and ask my first questions! I am an experienced photographer, but relatively new to digital. I studied photography for 3 years at Wakefield College 12 years ago, I learned about printing and had my own enlarger and darkroom at home. Over the years I fell into the wedding and portrait route which was not really the direction I wanted to take. Landscape has always been my first love, particularly of Scotland’s northern highlands. I now find myself in the lucky position where I am relocating to the north west coast of Scotland to a remote area in the next couple of years, now I have an opportunity to follow the route I really want to take. I am hoping to fulfil my goal and establish myself as a landscape photographer in this beautiful part of Scotland, it will be so much easier when I am living in the midst of it all. I 'm very excited at the prospect, but am trying not to wish time away, it’s too precious. I also like still-life work and am about to start photographing musical instruments, I have been given access to instruments at a music college and am looking forward to this project.

Now for the questions:

Q1 - I have a Canon EOS 20D which I’ve had for about 18 months or so together with a collection of 5 lenses, I have really enjoyed this camera as my first digital and am absolutely loving digital, not having to worry about how much film I use. I am considering buying the Canon EOS 5D for the full frame capability and increased file size, does anyone have it? and what do you think of it?

Q2 - When I you create a level 12 Jpeg from a 50MB TIFF file, for transmission over the internet it reduces down in size to 7MB approx, does this compression result in significant loss of image quality?

I look forward to your comments/advice - Jan

Hi Jan,

I have a 20d, and the 5d looks attractive, but my reason would be what people say about the viewfinder. The 20d, otherwise is fine for what I want. If you have the efs lenses, then they will be of little use on the 5d, of course.

re your second question. I think you can test it out yourself i.e. view the image after compression, before sending. It depends on what the recipient wants to do with the image, of course, and some images seem to compress much better than others. If its just for general web viewing, 7MB is far too large, anyway, imnsho. If you link to an image, then I'm sure you'd get some specific replies here.

Best wishes,

Ray

Thank you Ray - I have all EF lenses from my old EOS 10, not sure what you mean about the viewfinder - I've only just started looking into buying another camera - I'll have to check it out further - in the meantime - thank you for this. regards, Jan

for landscape photography and for weddings full frame is an excellent choice. i think it would also be helpful in your musical instrument project. my canon t90 was the last in a long line of film cameras for me, so i come at this from a full frame background, like you, i suspect. i started with a 10d and the 1.6 crop. the 5d was an old friend from the moment i picked it up and took my first photos. you will notice a difference in the increased file size, both in the detail and in the need for more hard drive space! i'd keep the 20d as a backup, partly because it can do 5fps, and the 5d does 3fps. not a deal breaker in landscapes, but if you ever need the speed you'll have it.

and in regard to the second question...as Ray says, it so depends on how the photo will be used. jpg is a "lossy" format, so just converting it to jpg changes it. for the web, 7mb is overkill. for a newsletter it would be ok. for a high-end brochure it would be too small.

Hi Jan,

I was not being critical of the 5d viewfinder, I was saying folk thought it was great, compared to the small dark space that is the 20d viewfinder. I am very reluctant to check it out, because I would probably _need_ to buy it. But the pixel density of the 20d is higher than the 5d, so if you were to crop a 5d image to the same physical size as the 20d, then .... oh, whatever, the 5d is better for landscape, you can probably get a better choice of wide angle lenses. But, if you're on one mountain, and you want a telephoto shot of the next one over, then stick with the 20D. But if you want wide angle, then stitch two or more images. But if you want to manual focus, then best of luck with the 20D....

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Marian

What wonderfully helpful information, I really appreciate this, seems to confirm what I thought, I guess I'll be going for the 5D, as you say I will be keeping the 20D as back up. Thank you. regards, Jan

Hi Ray

What an extremely helpful group you are! thank you so much for this it is very much appreciated.

regards, Jan

Hi Jan
Just to voice some caution.
I changed my 20D for the 5D a year ago, the image quality coming out of this camera is just awesome, and I think you will like it too.
However, this is not point and shoot camera, skill is required to get the best out of it.
The 20D was a very forgiving, easy to use camera, the 5D will punish you at every opportunity, correct exposure and framing, will give you images that challenge the 1DS markII, bad exposure will make for your worst nightmares to come true.
Also, be aware; due to the larger pixel size in the 5D, images don't look so good when cropped to extremes.
So, get it right and you are in heaven, get it wrong and is a hellish experience.
Kind regards
Ivan

Ivan,

Perhaps you are a little too harsh on the troubles an upgrade to the 5D might cause. The 5D is a marvelous camera. Because it is so light, I feel less reluctant to schlepp along more elsnes.

The combination with the Zeiss distagon lenses is digital nirvana! I would suggest the 28mm Distagon. The 2.8 is especially fine and so inexpensive that it is perhaps one of the greatest bargains in lenses for the 5D avaliable. (The 18mm Distagon requires shaving the mirror).

The 12-14mm Sigma will amaze you.

I don't think you will have any problems using the 5D given your photography pedigree!

I'm a little envious of you! I have the camera and the lenses but not Scotland, as of yet, as my garden!

Re instruments, have you seen this?

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1390

Asher

Hi Asher.
Yes, maybe a little harsh, I am sure that Jan will have no trouble with the upgrade.
However, coming from the 20D to the 5D, was a bit of a shock for me, you get used to the forgiveness the 20D affords you, and it took me some time to re-adjust, not that I had any issues doing so , I have been shooting film most of my life, and as we all know, exposure is the one thing you make sure to get right with film.
That said, the 5D is an outstanding tool, and I would not change it for the world (well until canon comes out with something better that is)
Kind Regards
Ivan (IGD)

Hi Ivan/Asher,

Would the older canon lenses that Janet have be OK on full frame digital. They may work good enough on crop image, but my concern would beon the angle of incidence aberations at the edges.

Best wishes,

Ray

Ray,

In practice, the Canon 16-35 has pretty well no flare and little CA.

The Pentax 5x7 and Distagons work very well. The angles of incidence are not as great because the lens is further out from the "film/CMOS" plane.

Asher

Hi Asher

Again really useful information, thank you so much, I have looked at the mandolin and it's beautiful, I will be hoping to produce similar quality images. I think I'm being given a saxophone first, I'll be bringing it home probably this weekend and keeping it for about a week, so I should have plenty of time to play. I'm going up to Applecross, (north west Scotland) in January for 2 weeks in a house about 50 metres from the sea, apparently otters come into the garden so I can't wait, although it will be a long difficult drive (about 470 miles) from where I live, with the last 50 miles regarded as possibly the worst section of single track road in the UK. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that it's not icy! Again thanks everyone for your comments and support it's really appreciated. Jan

Hi Ivan

Thank you for this information, I am used to using both of my cameras manually and often resort to my old light meter in difficult lighting conditions, bracketing exposures etc. but it is very useful to have all this pointed out. I was unaware of the larger pixel size and will look into this further before buying, but it looks like it's the camera for me, given that most of my usage is going to be landscape and still-life. I'm really glad I joined this group, you've all been so helpful. Thank you very much, Jan

Janet, I look forward to seeing your saxaphone pictures. I can't imagine the challenges that await photographing a brass instrument. Thanks for your compliment on my mandolin picture.

Feel free to stay in touch, I'd enjoy comparing notes about learning to photograph musical instruments.

Hello Charles

Yes it's definately going to be challenging, I had to photograph tools i.e. hammers, saws, plastering tools etc, as part of my college work, the object was to make every day functional objects look beautiful - I thought it was mad when I started it, but ended up getting quite a lot out of it. For the brass instruments - I will be using only daylight with strategically placed black boards to create shadows where I need them, I will not be able to using any matting or dulling sprays. I intend to pay particular interest to the details in the instruments working very close in, small apertures, long exposures, tripod based etc. I'm looking forward to it - I'll be taking many months to complete this piece of work, they have a whole orchestra for me to do!! Regards, Jan

My interest is primarily in landscape photography. About 2 years ago I upgraded from a D60 to a 20D and then a few months ago I added a 5D to my collection. The 20D remains a wonderful camera and a useful supplement to the 5D. The question is how best to take advantage of the 5D? It certainly has better image quality, smooth, but at the same time more detailed. The metering is excellent and the rgb histogram provides the ultimate exposure control. Focusing is spot on. When I bought the 5D I also added the 24-105 lens to augment my 16-35 and 70-300 DO. I mention this because I find control of depth of field with the 5D to be the greatest challenge. I am usually seeking sharp images from foreground to infinity. I found that easier to achieve with the 20D and 16-35. At full wide angle (16mm), setting the distance to about 5 ft @ F11-13 produced sharpness front to back. With the 5D and the 24-105 zoom at a focal length of 24 mm, f16 does not produce equivalent results. Not a problem but an observation and a consideration for how to balance DOF, sharpness and diffraction. Given that you too are interested in landscape photography, I would not abandom my older lenses without a full evaluation of them on the 5D. Since you will likely be shooting stopped down in many situations, it is not clear to me that there will be great benefit from L-fever.

Hello Nathaniel

Thank you very much for this detailed information, I agree, I will definately be hanging on to my older lenses, at least until I have had a chance to fully evaluate them. All of this helps to confirm that I will be buying the 5D. Regards, Jan

I went down the same path you are considering and never regretted it. While the 20D was a fine camera, moving to the 5D brings you to a new level.

In addition to what has been mentioned already (better viewfinder, full frame, etc.) consider that the individual photosites on the 5Ds sensor are larger. In other words, the sensor covers the same area as the 1Ds Mark ii, but with somewhat fewer, but larger pixels. What this translates to is the best low available light/high ISO performance of any 35mm sized camera on the market today. This view is shared by many.

I use the 5D, buried in a Jacobson Sound Blimp, for movie stills. In that configuration, it can't be heard on a set (or in a theater) and the output at ISO 3200 is really amazing. In the applications mentioned, I obviously have no control of the lighting, and, also obviously, flash is not possible.

If you imagine that you'll want to photograph the interiors of old castles, architecture in available light, and so on, this camera is a great tool. And as mentioned, you can fit some of the finest non-Canon lenses.

Another benefit, as a 20D user, you already know that the control layout is the same. That shouldn't be taken lightly, as you transition to the 5D from the 20D.

If I get a chance, and you think it might be helpful, I'll post one or two of those ISO 3200 images - with no noise correction added - so you can see what I'm talking about.

Hi Janet,

In short the introduction of the 5D by Canon made me switch systems completely from Nikon to Canon. Selling off all of my Nikon gear was worth it.

To me the 5D currently is the best DSLR made so far. I know the 1D(s) series might have a bit faster AF and some additional ruggedness, but all of that means nothing to me as imo the 5D shines in key areas for my use:

1. Very very low noise at high isos
2. Compact and light dslr body compared to the 1D bricks
3. Low shuttersound. The 5D is pretty quiet in operation
4. Full frame goodness. Many people do not realize this before they see what I mean. Try a 50mm (or if you don't have a 50mm then a 85mm) f/1.2. Set it to 1.2 and make a nice exposure. When you load such a picture onto your photo editing workstation (or print it) for the first time, you cannot stop to just sit and drool lol

Hi Jan
While I've nothing to say about the 5D (I own a 1DMk2) i would like to tell you that JPG compession as said in one of the 1st posts here, IS "lossy" and, as Ray mentionned you may try with your eyes, side by side.
From my experience, shoot RAW, developp, tweak, do what you want to your image in 16bits.
Then save for future in 16bit tif

Then, when you have ntohing else to do (never resave a JPEG, restart from the Tif if you need to make some new adjustments, otherwise you'll add a new compression to the initial compression) you may save as in 8bit JPG with minimum compression.

It is important to understnad how JPG compression works, to make it simple:
- it analizes the file and group the pixels by their closest values, making areas, the more you compress bigger are the areas, then less areas to save, and less gradients...
This is why for files of the same size, your JPG images will "weght" differently, i.e. 6 or 7 or 8 Mb depending of the amount of details each one holds.
A full black frame rgb values 0-0-0 will wheight quite nothing (same with full white or pink or yellow frame)

Even for a high-end brochure (I print them all along the year as well as books) I bet NOBODY will see the difference when printed.

Hope it helps!

Jan
I went from D60 to 5D & loved having all my old lenses back to their original focal length. The quality of the files is markedly superior too !
You would be hard pressed to find a difference between a Tif & a Jpg 12 file, but for your own sake shoot RAW
Cheers
Greg
www.gregnoakes.com