Specialty shops vs on-line shopping: where do you stand?

Upon seeing this WTD strip, I thought I should share some thoughts about on-line shopping vs local specialty shops with you.

Today, there are still many speciality shops to be found where one can buy physical goods (such as electronic equipment, cameras, etc). Unfortunately, their numbers are diminishing since buying on-line has become the de-facto trend.

Why do people buy on-line? The main reason is that it is mostly cheaper. On-line businesses do not have to pay expensive property rentals for shops, they do not have to employ shop personnel, they have much less overhead, they have higher volumes so they can have smaller margins on profits, etc. Also, it is more convenient, you can shop in the middle of the night if you are an insomniac. It can also be more comfortable, you don’t have to leave the safety of your home, drive to a shop, park the car, loose time, deal with irritating crowds/people, etc. Lastly, on-line shops can have a bigger assortment of products compared to local shops.

Why do people visit specialty shops? Main reason being that one can see/feel/touch/smell the products. Also, one can ask questions about products and receive some good advice in better (speciality) shops. Service is also important, if it does not work as advertised, you can return it and have it replaced/repaired (which also works in a similar way for on-line shopping but IMO at a different level, especially here in Europe-Holland where the consumer rights constitute a greyish area).

What is the added value of having specialty shops? Apart from the reasons I have listed above, I think that they are essential to the well-being of any micro-economy. Small towns like mine would be a sleeping one if we would not have the liveliness brought by the shops in it.

What do I think? I think it is very important to keep on having specialty shops. I try and buy at local shops, even if I pay a higher price compared to online shopping. The service you get back is usually worth the price. I confess though, it does not always work that way. Sometimes, I too am gullible as charged ;-).

What do you think?

Regards,

Cem

© Aaron Johnson 2006 with permission!


Yes it is funny!

I divide my purchases so that I buy some products from the local stores. However, I ask for and they routinely match the online prices, which would be B&H.

I sometimes buy from a small store in another town and feel I'm doing good. Still lately I bought my 5D from Brightscreen, but how would you classify that? I think it really is a small camera store!

Asher

Where I live specialty shops are for all practical purposes non-existent, particularly wrt camera gear. This was true even before the internet. So my option is not only a (sometimes considerably) higher price but also a 100 to 200 mile drive to get to the shop. So I buy nearly all electronics and camera gear online, but nevertheless I seek out the smaller outfits with good reputations like Canoga Camera rather than B&H or Samys (although I use both of them also) even if I have to pay a bit more.

- DL

Hi Don, Asher,

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it. I was kind of afraid my ramblings would not be clear to most people on the forums simply because they live in a different social environment than where I live here in Holland/Western Europe.

Just like Don wrote, if one lives in a large country (USA, Canada, Australia, etc), shopping on-line may be the only practical way. Even here, not all products can be bought in local shops, so we have to do it on-line then. But, if you had the choice of buying locally vs on-line, how would you deal with it? What Asher wrote about his purchasing habits is very recognisable, I do more or less the same myself.

So let met add a new dimension to my story by stating that I kind of like the emerging concept of specialty shops that have a presence in the real world (i.e. a regular shop) and an on-line shopping site, combining the advantages of both worlds. Shops like Calumet and Kamera-Express here in Holland. But even then, they cannot replace the local shops since one has to drive hours to get to the central stores of such businesses.

Cem

Hi Cem,

It evolves. Not many farriers left in London. Not many mechanical watch repairer's either. Your local supermarket will sell point and shoot cameras, to steal trade from your local camera shop. He is then left with selling higher priced cameras to fewer customers. There will be no specialist shops, very soon. Then, the supermarkets trade on line. If anything, they move to large out of town industrial type malls. The small town dies.

Then, someone does a deal on the net, sells the stuff out of his frontroom, gets bigger, opens a local shop....

There are no shops near me. The price difference in the larger stores in Bristol, are too high. I bought my 20D, and other stuff from Canada, I found a nice place via the net. I could free phone them, and they were honest to deal with. I have bought subsequent lenses sh, from folk on fm forum b & s, I have bought stuff via net from Hong Kong, and USA. less hassle then I get if I go into the local Curries or Dixons, whose sales reps are paid minimum wage, and generally know little about the products they sell, won't have it in stock, won't know when it will be available.

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Ray,

I understand fully where you're coming from. I just want to clarify one thing re my definition of specialty shops. Dixons or Curries are to me super markets for gadgets and not specialty shops.

I guess it will be all over soon, as you've scetched it rather accurately (sigh)...

Cheers,

Cem

Cem,

Dixon's etc. is all we got now here. A few lurking in London, elsewhere, but there are nowhere near as many as there was before. Its the same with most things.

Best wishes,

Ray

After about 5 years of only buying from online dealers (B&H mostly, but some purchases from Canoga), I think I might try actually shopping at the local camera store that I drive past twice per day. I've never been inside largely because I don't want to deal with sales people who probably know less about their products than I do. I have a feeling that I'll be wasting my time, though... I suspect that the markups on the equipment I'm currently interested in will be 20-40% higher than prices at B&H.

I'll report back here with results when I finally get around to going.

Out here in the boonies, we have only one camera-store chain (Harold's Photo Centers). their prices are typically 15-25% over listed prices on B&H, Canoga and Cameta. I have bought a few things from them, but only when I've had equipment die or need repair and the returns haven't come fast enough for my schedule or I needed a replaced that day.

As much as I like to help support local business and/or fellow Chamber of Commerce members, I defer to B&H, Canoga and Cameta because their prices are far more reasonable, quite often you can get free shipping, and their return policies are fairly comprehensive.

Being in a semi-rural area there is not much of a choice. There is a 'Kit's Camera' in the local mall. But they don't carry much.. The next closest is 30 miles away.. He charges manufacturers suggested price and will not budge. "If you don't like the price, don't buy it" He does have a good selection of darkroom related supplies. The next place is 120 miles away.
I grew up in southern California (before the internet) and always shopped local.. (rather than to LA). Now there is a Samy's that I look in when I go to visit my dad. Also the store I shopped at the most is still there and much fancier than I remember.. Cal's Camera in Costa Mesa. So any-who.. I would shop local if there was a real camera store with in even 30 miles..

Cem Usakligil said:

What do I think? I think it is very important to keep on having specialty shops. I try and buy at local shops, even if I pay a higher price compared to online shopping. The service you get back is usually worth the price. I confess though, it does not always work that way. Sometimes, I too am gullible as charged ;-).

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Hi Cem
Exctly same here, I would like to add that if specialty shops dissapear is because most of people buy online to get "reasonable price".
Not because "it's the way it is".

What is a reasonnable price? Cheaper?
I feel like we're all shooting a bullet to our own feet.
Shirts made in China are cheaper. Now, for this reason, in Europe we do not have any more textile industry... and we have to pay the difference of price with taxes because of unemployement.
Where's the saving?

We get what we pay for, in other words we pay for our behavior...

When I need some new stuff, I ask advices on the fora (specially in OPF!), search the web for tech infos, and then I go to my local shop (they know about photography) and talk with the salesman (which became a friend after so many years) and put my order.
Sometime they don't have in stock and they order for me. Their price is usually about 5% more expensive (or less cheap).
And you know what? When I need a repair from CPS, I better send myself because it's faster. So What? It's the Canon distribution system, not them...

But I'm so happy when I see their shop lit and alive!
They give so much good advice to the newbies and amateurs, much better than the guy from the supermarket trying to sale the items from which he gets better margin.

Of course this does not apply to those living far away in the country... at least for camera gear.

In another post I related that I came in B&H when I was in NYC a short while ago, and didn't buy the stuff (600 or 500 mm IS + an Eizo 22" LCD screen) I was looking for, without a good reason, just because I didn't felt nice there...

Let's protect our local economy market!

Mary has always received help from her local camera store. That will be gone if she then bought online!

Most of the pollution will come from India and China by 210. China struggles to buy and lock up more oil supplies which in turn increases the power of extremist states which they then supply weapons and military technology oblivious to the consequences. Our purchases of oil of course have predated this huge shift of capital. We are just seeing things get much worse.

We are losing resources: steel, wood and plastics, all sucked up into the black hole of this new mega industry in China and India. However all this for what? Just immediate benefit to a seething mass of ever more children to chase on a perpetual hamster's wheel?

This mega-ization kills local stores, disempowers workers, and threatens the very viabilities of villages and towns that employ us. However, we grab immediate loot (of cheap TV's and plastic buckets) from mega stores.

This is akin to the luxury jewelry stores on the first floor of sinking buildings lining the canals of wonderful Venice. They do not make any effort to save the very setting they are in. In fact, they selfishly bespoil the finest jewel of Europe!

Unfortunately commerce is driven, exploiting all possible ways of making money, consequences be dammed! By contrast, animals in their own ecosystems don't generally wipe out their environment. Transnational corporations have no such instincts or qualms, as they are sufficiently mobile and omnivorous!

In a small way, when we support a local store, we slow this process and on the way for an exra 5% treat each other as humans. If we don't treasure our village town life, who will?

Still I, myself have a spotty record here. Nevertheless, when I do visit a local store and get help. I always try to buy whatever I can, even when I am paying more. The extra money is the fair price for local service. The issue is taxes. Buying from B&H saves 8% or more, straight off! Still, the local Samy's tries to give a discount to somewhat equalize this.

Asher

Jason C Doss said:

After about 5 years of only buying from online dealers (B&H mostly, but some purchases from Canoga), I think I might try actually shopping at the local camera store that I drive past twice per day. I've never been inside largely because I don't want to deal with sales people who probably know less about their products than I do. I have a feeling that I'll be wasting my time, though... I suspect that the markups on the equipment I'm currently interested in will be 20-40% higher than prices at B&H.

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This has largely been my experience. Friendly salespeople who try to be helpful, 15-20% higher prices, salespeople who know about as much as I do (they like to push anything but Canon, so my using Canon gear is a poor fit) and then support after the sale is mediocre. They also have insanely short hours. They close at 6:00PM on weekdays, so I can't even go there after work. B&H is open 6 days a week

I don't like talking to salespeople a lot, so I don't get much out of their presence. I'd much prefer to just buy things on the web. I buy things locally because I know that sometimes I want stuff in a hurry and I want to make sure they're still there. At the same time, their dwindling selection of the stuff I'm interested in (they used to carry large format gear, but not any more, they're phasing out their supply of darkroom supplies) makes it harder to support them.

Then there is their used department. They offered my $675 for a lens (in perfect condition) I bought from them new for $1200 earlier this year. Is it normal to take such a huge hit? Needless to say I'll be selling it myself shortly.

I've spent $5k-$10k there in the last couple years, but I don't really have a relationship with them in any way. The value add is strictly in avoiding shipping delays.

Eric
so bad that you had this experience.
Obviously there are bad shops too!
May be, may be only, they do have to struggle to survive...

Cem Usakligil said:

Why do people visit specialty shops?

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I make the trip to the specialty shop when I do not know what I need to do what I want and I want it to work the first try (rather than taking weeks buying yet another round of $30 adapters to support a light modifier). And for that help I am happy to pay a premium.

But that trip to a specialty store is a 4 hour round trip on a good day so it is not remotely convenient.

I will also pay the premium price if it is convenient (i.e., I am nearby for other reasons).

I will also pay a lesser premium if they will match or come close to B&H or a similar brick and mortar retailer's price (tax, gasoline, and time). But this involves negotiating prices and I am not always in the mood.

Cem Usakligil said:

Why do people buy on-line? ...

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Several factors:

• Convenience. The trip to the specialty stores costs a fair bit of time and a not small amount of money (fuel and ferry fees). Ad in having to deal with urban traffic and it is mildly stressful. But one does get to visit the photographers version of a candy store.
• Price. The local specialty shop charges close to the manufacturers suggested price and this often a 15% markup or more over non-local brick and mortar specialty shops like B&H, Adorama, Calumet, ...
• On line stores are more likely to have it in stock than the smaller chain camera stores. I have no interest in special ordering and having drive back to pick something up when the shipper can bring it straight to me.
• Higher prices for specialty items are fine, but not for commodity items manufactured by multi-national corporations regardless of how specialized the item is.
• The local specialty shops do not carry Sigma lenses. Not that I own any, but there are a couple I want (12-24 and 70/2.8 macro) and only chain stores sell Sigmas at artifically inflated prices (they have the volume, they simply stick it to the consumer).

Noting that B&H is a brick and mortar (in Manhattan which is very inconvenient for me being on the opposite side of the continent) their prices are much lower profit margin. This lower margin is where their volume comes from (this is supposition). Most of the local brick and mortar specialty shops have e-commerce functionality but their charge much higher profit margins which contributes to their remaining low volume on their sales. I just cannot comprehend why I should pay them hundreds of dollars more for the same product I can get from another brick and mortar's website.

some thoughts,

Sean

Nicolas Claris said:

Eric
so bad that you had this experience.
Obviously there are bad shops too!
May be, may be only, they do have to struggle to survive...

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*shrug* They're the "good" local camera shop. They have the best selection and sell things that aren't aimed at basic consumers. There isn't much choice. Most folks love them - I just don't see a benefit beyond having things available here in town.

I never make friends with the staff at places I go. It's not in my nature - I try to be polite, but chitchat is unnatural. I tip well (when appropriate) and refer friends to people/places I like, but I'll never end up on a first name basis with the sales people. I'd rather just take care of my business and be on my way.

well for me it is simple, I am on an extreamly tight budget, and to buy here in Aus a 70-200mm L IS will be around 3K from a brick and morter store, so I buy used from the US. Many amatures will continue to shop in stores though, when looking for a P&S. A used 1D mark II will go for 4-4.5K which is about a thousand more than I paid from the US. what percentage more does it generally cost to buy from a brick and morter store in the US vs. online. My main reason for online is becuase stuff is much cheaper in the US than Aus.

I myself, Shop around for the best deal, and then decide which is the best for me and this hinges on the type of Equipment,[I.E] when I bought My DSLR , I got it locally from Calumet in boston, could have gotten it from the web ,But If I needed help or Info on it ,I knew I could go there and get ,one way or another! Buy-ing used or refurbish equipment , I have bought from Adorama.com a few things I knew I could not get at Calumet at their Price!
I think we all have become more aware shoppers and also have become very cautioned shoppers, Since one can run into a scamer real fast if not careful, so far with all the purchases I have made only one or two where not up to spec's but thats my stupidity! and lack of knowledge in those area's!

Just my 2cents

Jason C Doss said:

I'll report back here with results when I finally get around to going.

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I went shopping at the local camera store. They quoted me a price of $1699, with tax amounts to over $1700 for the D200. I could get it from B/H tax-free for $1475 with the PSNOV discount code. I mentioned the B/H price to the surprisingly knowledgable store clerk, and he said they might try to match B/H, but don't match other online retailers. Even if they matched the $1475 selling price, that still doesn't take into account sales tax, which is over $100. He didn' seem optimistic that they could go so low with the price anyway.

So, I'll be ordering from B/H this weekend. But I at least gave it "the old college try."

Jason C Doss said:

I went shopping at the local camera store. They quoted me a price of $1699, with tax amounts to over $1700 for the D200. I could get it from B/H tax-free for $1475 with the PSNOV discount code. I mentioned the B/H price to the surprisingly knowledgable store clerk, and he said they might try to match B/H, but don't match other online retailers. Even if they matched the $1475 selling price, that still doesn't take into account sales tax, which is over $100. He didn' seem optimistic that they could go so low with the price anyway.

So, I'll be ordering from B/H this weekend. But I at least gave it "the old college try."

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Jason,

I know how you feel. To me if I take up the stores time, I try to buy there. Otherwise the stores will die and we suffer!

Now for the B&H code. How does it gow, is it always PS and the month?

How does one find out about this?

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Now for the B&H code. How does it gow, is it always PS and the month?
How does one find out about this?

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Discount codes show up every month. It is usually "PSXXX" where XXX is the first three letters of the month. They also issue other codes at trade shows that usually show up on the internet somewhere, generally at DPReview. Enter "PSNOV" into the search window and three hundred and some items show up at a somewhat reduced price.

Hi Asher,

The promotion code is updated periodically but not every month. So when one code fails, try the next two or three months and you will strike something. There have been some good deals over the years.

enjoy,

Sean

I've been buying online since the early 90s. I was on a BBS called Compuserve Information Service, and started emailing this B&H rep. I would call for any equipment purchase, but for darkroom supplies, papers, I'd fire off an email, and this guy would fill my order for me. This was pre-internet of course.
There wasn't any choice for me, as there are no local camera stores. The nearest is 100 miles away, in any direction. I did buy from a small store in Memphis, TN a few times. But they had very little inventory, not many models. Great..great people to deal with, would sell at a reasonable price, very knowledgeable about equipment. After a few purchases, I could just phone them, and they'd ship my equipment. But they didn't carry every brand, or every lens..they just couldn't match inventory with someone like B&H.
Sometimes..I'd just need a small piece of equipment...or darkroom papers, and it was just easier to get it from B&H. After awhile, I would order any camera, or lens from B&H (or another online retailer)...and I don't even try to buy from a Brick & Mortar store anymore. I didn't get mistreated, or mad, I just would rather make one phone call..or now-a-days, just log on the net.