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CERN tests of speed of neutrinos

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
My grasp of particle physics and relativity does not let me wholly appreciate this matter, but it seems astounding on at least two fronts.

Reportedly researchers at CERN, the European nuclear research institute (its acronym is a clever pun - Kern is German for kernel, or nucleus) have recently confirmed an earlier finding in which a burst of muons neutrinos apparently traverses a substantial distance (about 450 miles) at a speed greater than the accepted speed of light in a vacuum.

The discrepancy (approximately 1 part in 40,000) was said to be a "six-sigma" finding statistically.

Not surprisingly, this (if it continues to be further confirmed) promises to upset many accepted understandings in the area of relativity.

Even more pragmatically startling to me is that the propagation of the burst of neutrinos was done through 450 miles of solid rock from the CERN headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland to INFN-Gran Sasso Laboratory in Gran Sasso, Italy. I had no idea that those little suckers could do that at any speed.

I would say that is rather beyond "line of sight".

Best regards,

Doug
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Fascinating stuff indeed. I have been reading about this today and part of the academic world seems to be hesitant in accepting the results as being valid. Some further experimentation is in order it seems. I am not certain how this will effect physics as we know it. Exciting times ahead.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
Fascinating stuff indeed. I have been reading about this today and part of the academic world seems to be hesitant in accepting the results as being valid. Some further experimentation is in order it seems. I am not certain how this will effect physics as we know it. Exciting times ahead.

cem,

like photography it needs more than one measure to stand the test... two ways are still not enough to take it to a 5...

measuring is a tricky process when we ken next to nothing about what we are measuring... and by ther process affect what we measure... we could substitute the measure for mapping and still be in a minefield of mentalness...

its a strange re-ocuring universe indeed
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
The interested reader may wish to inquire about Günter Nimtz, whom I had the pleasure to see when he gave one of his first lectures.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I am interested - tell me about Nimtz...

Quite simply Günter Nimtz found in 1992 that evanescent waves at the interface of two medium of different refraction index propagated faster than the speed of light. It is a relatively simple experiment, which uses nothing but a moderately well equipped college lab and has been confirmed independently many times.

Theoreticians have been fighting since that time to determine whether that experiment was consistent with special relativity or not. At the time I am writing this text, the faction which believes the experiment does not invalidate special relativity has the upper hand in the Wikipedia article about Günter Nimtz.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
Quite simply Günter Nimtz found in 1992 that evanescent waves at the interface of two medium of different refraction index propagated faster than the speed of light. It is a relatively simple experiment, which uses nothing but a moderately well equipped college lab and has been confirmed independently many times.

Theoreticians have been fighting since that time to determine whether that experiment was consistent with special relativity or not. At the time I am writing this text, the faction which believes the experiment does not invalidate special relativity has the upper hand in the Wikipedia article about Günter Nimtz.

Jerome,

thanks will do a bit of reading no doubt misunderstand everything ....

have a good day !

cheers
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Jerome,

Quite simply Günter Nimtz found in 1992 that evanescent waves at the interface of two medium of different refraction index propagated faster than the speed of light. It is a relatively simple experiment, which uses nothing but a moderately well equipped college lab and has been confirmed independently many times.
Yes, and this has been often simplistically offered as proof of "something" 'traveling' faster than the speed of light.

But of course this can be looked at as a "geometric illusion".

A common (and not really valid) metaphor is a truck whose front bumper is straight but slightly canted, traveling at 60 mi/hr along a track. As it crosses the finish line, the intersection of the bumper with the finish line travels along the finish line at gigantic speed.

Another is if we have an electromagnetic wave propagating along a line, and another wave of the same frequency propagating along a line slightly oblique to the first line, then if we observe along the first line, we will see a phenomenon which looks like a wave at the frequency noted but amplitude modulated, and its envelope appears to "progress" faster than the speed of light.

But of course this is only true in "steady state", once the two waves have been in existence long enough to have propagated (in the usual sense) through our "zone of observation".

(My understanding of relativity is so feeble that I will get myself in trouble if I go any farther.)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
As I said: people with far more knowledge on the subject than I probably will ever have have been fighting over this subject since 1992, without really reaching an agreement. The fact that they have been fighting without reaching an agreement is, in itself, something that should raise interest, don't you think so?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
As I said: people with far more knowledge on the subject than I probably will ever have have been fighting over this subject since 1992, without really reaching an agreement. The fact that they have been fighting without reaching an agreement is, in itself, something that should raise interest, don't you think so?

Jerome,

The argument is so great because there's so much at stake. This faster than light Neutrinos, if confirmed would, it's claimed, require a new look at the General Theory of Relativity. That's for the physicist almost as outrageous for its time as saying "the earth is not flat" or that "the universe does not rotate around the earth!" Even before refining the Theory of Relativity to account for the physics of the last 25 years, there's something fundamental that has to be learned in the very anchoring of the essential core theory upon which all else is built. After all, every new idea starts with Einstein's General Theory of relativity being a given foundation for further exploration. Nothing should be able to travel faster than the speed of light!

So, if neutrinos can indeed fly at a speed faster than light, it's a major shock to the thinkers that try to reconcile the facts of space in the universe and fundamental physics. There's a desire to unify the vast body of knowledge of astrophysics and subatomic physics: the very make up of the heavens and the infinitesimal private components of the very cores of atoms: sub-proton and sub-neutron particles continuously in their own orbits, rotations and interactions.

So, it's quite natural for scientists to be cautious. When these findings have been reproduced in several different laboratories using other equipment, then we'll either learn a lot new about designing experiments for such ultra-highspeed events or else we are about to set out on a new journey in understanding matter and energy relationships as never before.

Asher
 

StuartRae

New member
Fifty years ago this news would have devastated me, but then I returned to the real world where dear old Newton is quite adequate. After all, if I have an accident while driving my car all I need to know is that the faster I'm going the more it hurts.

Even more pragmatically startling to me is that the propagation of the burst of neutrinos was done through 450 miles of solid rock from the CERN headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland to INFN-Gran Sasso Laboratory in Gran Sasso, Italy. I had no idea that those little suckers could do that at any speed.

Doug, imagine you're a fly who's world consists of spheres, twenty miles in diameter with a bowling ball at the centre and a few peas scattered round the circumference. That's what 'solid' rock is to a neutrino. Fly in a straight line and the chances of hitting anything are quite small!

Regards,

Stuart
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Stuart,

Doug, imagine you're a fly who's world consists of spheres, twenty miles in diameter with a bowling ball at the centre and a few peas scattered round the circumference. That's what 'solid' rock is to a neutrino. Fly in a straight line and the chances of hitting anything are quite small!
Yes, and it's easy to forget that when you're my size!

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi, Stuart,


Yes, and it's easy to forget that when you're my size!

Best regards,

Doug

Makes me think of the song, "Little People" in "Les Miserables"

GAVROCHE
They laugh at me, these fellas,
Just because I am small
They laugh at me because I'm not hundred feet tall!
I tell 'em there's aot to learn down here on the ground
The world is big, but little people turn it around!

A worm can roll a stone
A bee can sting a bear
A fly can fly around Versailles
'Cos flies don't care!
A sparrow in a hut
Can make a happy home
A flea can bite the bottom
Of the Pope in Rome!

Gaoliath was a buiser who was tall as the sky.
But David threw a right and gave him one in the eye.
I never read the Bible but I know that it's true
It only goes to show what little people can do!

ALL
A worm can roll a stone
A bee can sting a bear
A fly can fly around Versailles
'Cos flies don't care!
A sparrow in a hut
Can make a happy home
A flea can bite the bottom
Of the Pope in Rome!

GAVROCHE
So listen here professor,
With your head in the cloud.
It's often kind of useful
To get lost in the crowd.
So keep your universities
I don't give a damn
For better or for worse it is
The way that I am!

Be careful where you go
'Cos little people grow...

And little people know
When little people fight
We may look easy pickings but we got some bite!
So never kick a dog because he's just a pup
You better run for cover when the pup grows up!

And we'll fight like twenty armies
And we won't give up

ALL
A worm can roll a stone
A bee can sting a bear
A fly can fly around Versailles
'Cos flies don't care!
A sparrow in a hut
Can make a happy home
A flea can bite the bottom
Of the Pope in Rome!

Doug,

As they get smaller, the little people have more room to maneuver and don't have to obey the rules; simple as that!

Einstein should have thought of that himself!

Asher
 

Martin Evans

New member
Doug, imagine you're a fly who's world consists of spheres, twenty miles in diameter with a bowling ball at the centre and a few peas scattered round the circumference. That's what 'solid' rock is to a neutrino. Fly in a straight line and the chances of hitting anything are quite small!

Regards,

Stuart

Just a conjecture: maybe the speed of light in a vacuum is not the fastest speed at which photons could theoretically travel? Neutrinos don't interact with anything; might photons be interacting with something that is present in a vacuum, and be slowed a little? Dark Matter??

Probably a rubbish thought. My maths was never good enough for me to 'do' physics.

Time to go and lie down in a darkened room.

Martin
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
maybe the speed of light in a vacuum is not the fastest speed at which photons could theoretically travel?

One of the basis of relativity theories (special and general) is that the speed of light in a vacuum is the fastest speed at which photons and everything else can travel in any medium.
 

Martin Evans

New member
One of the basis of relativity theories (special and general) is that the speed of light in a vacuum is the fastest speed at which photons and everything else can travel in any medium.

Yes, agreed. But the theories of relativity were proposed before neutrinos were known. The point that I was trying to make is that, perhaps, the ultimate speed is that of neutrinos and that the speed of photons is, for some reason, slower (by apparently about 1 part in 40,000).

If one put the speed of the neutrino into equations such as the famous e=mc^2, in place of the speed of light, how much difference would it make to experimental results?

Martin
 
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