• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Including other artwork in ones' own creative composition!

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
We need a hummingbird, (at least I do), so one goes to the web and find several from a stock agency or else in the "public domain".

I worry that some public domain images may simply be orphaned when the images are processed and copied in error without attribution.

So, if some part of my work is from a photograph I make, and the total composition is new, then how do we give attribution to the original photographers whose works are included? Is it even necessary?

Asher
 
We need a hummingbird, (at least I do), so one goes to the web and find several from a stock agency or else in the "public domain".

I worry that some public domain images may simply be orphaned when the images are processed and copied in error without attribution.

So, if some part of my work is from a photograph I make, and the total composition is new, then how do we give attribution to the original photographers whose works are included? Is it even necessary?

Hi Asher,

It's a slippery slope, don't do it unless you have something like this in mind. If you have to, then at least mention the post-processing and image source (and mention that you were not able to find the author to ask for permission).

Cheers,
Bart
 
Last edited:

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi Asher,
We need a hummingbird, (at least I do), so one goes to the web and find several from a stock agency or else in the "public domain".

I worry that some public domain images may simply be orphaned when the images are processed and copied in error without attribution.

So, if some part of my work is from a photograph I make, and the total composition is new, then how do we give attribution to the original photographers whose works are included? Is it even necessary?

Asher
Firstly, there is a widespread misconception that the images posted on the net are in the public domain. we all know that this isn't true. An image will be in the public domain if it is either coming from one of the established sources and/or the copyright holder states it explicitly, as in the case of the creative commons licenses. I would not assume that any orphaned images found on the net are in the public domain, on the contrary.

The copyright holder will have to let you know how to give credit to his/her work, they may require you to attribute or not. For example, all creative commons licenses require you to attribute the original creator.

When in doubt, be open about what you are doing. Just like Bart suggested.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cem,

Firstly, there is a widespread misconception that the images posted on the net are in the public domain. we all know that this isn't true. An image will be in the public domain if it is either coming from one of the established sources and/or the copyright holder states it explicitly, as in the case of the creative commons licenses.

Or if the copyright has expired because of the passage of time.

Your ensuing points, however, are well taken.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Bart, Cem and Doug,

Thanks for your thoughtful answers. Bart, that reference to the wildlife photographer is frightening in that public resources were wasted because folk thought that rabies-carrying animals were far more prevalent than reality.

So here are some of the issues:

1. The artist is not saying what of his/her art is personally created and what are pictures rented or used from other sources. This somehow seems a little troubling to me. I want a humming bird in one picture but so far my own photographs of the bird are inadequate. If I license a picture that requires no attribution, I still have issues with my own "honesty" in not declaring that that was not created by my own efforts. Are these qualms misplaced?

2. If the image is fictive, then not stating that could cause consequences to public policy since people might think that what is shown is a reflection of what actually exists. Such is the case with placed objects or posed "victims" in war pictures or animals in the link Bart gave.

3. Some pictures considered in the "Public Domain" might be instead "orphans". This can happen where a picture on the web is copied and edited in a program like Picasa which might strip away the identifying EXIF or IPTC information. From there this picture can be orphaned. So stating that a composition has one or more component images derived from other sources which are available on request, at least allows for some straightforward checking. But is that something our ethics should bind us to do?​

Although I have had this issue in my mind for some time because of my need for a humming bird picture, a recent post here brought to my attention that we don't have any policy here on disclosure of sources in creative compositions. Of course, it might not be needed. After all, I could be just be over-sensitive to using other image sources because of my own insecurity.

Asher
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi Asher,

As I wrote earlier, ophaned and public domain are two different things. If one finds an orphaned image on the net, one should never assume that it is in the public domain.

Re. the question whether we need a policy for the disclosure of the sources, I don't think one is needed in OPF. Those who have the tendency to disclose their sources will do so with or without a policy. Those who don't, won't. But if this is bothering you, by all means create a policy and add it to the TOS. If we ever get into a dispute in the future, you can then refer back to the TOS.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cem,

Sorry I missed this before.

An image will be in the public domain if it is either coming from one of the established sources and/or the copyright holder states it explicitly, as in the case of the creative commons licenses.

In fact, material available under a Creative Commons License is not in the public domain; if it were there would be no concept of a license.

What has happened there is that the creator has granted a special type of plenary (universal), non-royalty-bearing license.

In other cases, the creator may dedicate the work to the public (that is, place it explicitly in the public domain). That does not involve the concept of a Creative Commons license not any other sort of license. (We see this sometimes for images available via Wikipedia.)

A further situation in which material goes automatically into the public domain is most work done for or by and published by the United States Government. (There are exceptions, but I am not qualified at the moment to describe them.)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
And what about letting folk know of the diverse origins of pictorial elements. Is that proper form or not required if the works are in the public domain.

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

And what about letting folk know of the diverse origins of pictorial elements. Is that proper form or not required if the works are in the public domain.
I certainly think that in many (or most) cases, it is desirable to indicate the source of any important ingredients (just as we will usually identify the "natural" subject of our photographs: "Frisco 19, a 2-8-0 'Consolidation' locomotive on exhibit at Frisco Heritage Park", "Mayor Bloomberg of New York, New York").

And if I make a derivative of a great (but now PD) painting, I would expect to do so.

At the other extreme, if I pick up a beautiful arrow from some clip art collection to point to a doodad on the locomotive, there hardly seems any need.

And there's a wide scale in between.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Top